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Austere Emancipator
I'm preparing to run a highly modified Supernova. This is for a rather experienced team of runners that are very good in combat. I'm liking the adventure so far, but I've got some problems with the combat scene. The Red Samurai are complete morons, and I know that if that combat occurred like it does in the book, they would get slaughtered by my team.

So I started figuring how to make the combat more challenging. Do you think this is overkill? Or silly in some other respect?

First of all, I'll be using all of the Pushing the Envelope options already mentioned on p. 33 of First Run. There will be 3 teams, although the last one will come from the van and not from another helo. The cyberzombie will jump right into it, although I might cut the team some slack with it because I'll make the zombie a lot tougher, too. There will be several elementals around.

Second, the car won't be as fucked up as it is in the book. If they really wanted the case, they wouldn't have blown it apart like that. Instead, the team might notice a helo hovering (rather stealthily) over the scene just before the car comes into view. Just as the car gets close -- BANG, a rain of sparks from the engine section of Elizabeth's car and it crashes. The driver won't get too hurt, and there'll be no horn blowing.

This helicopter will remain high (500 meter or more) above the scene all the time, circling fast to avoid incoming fire. The 2 other helicopters will come in low, below the rooftops, and drop their teams in the corners on either side along Main Strt (99th and 101st?), 75-100 meters away from the car and the corner the PCs are at.

2 APCs, #1 with 2 mages and the CZ and #2 with one full team with a mage, approach along 100th. If they are not fired upon (fat chance), #2 will drive right past the car and halfway down the block, stopping sideways there and letting the team out. #1 will stay half a block up from the car and block traffic there. If there is lots of shooting, they stop on either side of the street that crosses 100th one block up from Main and let their guys out there.

From these positions, they will carefully approach the car, leapfrogging between any possible cover, depending mostly on sniping and the mages to provide backup, with the elementals and CZ doing the brunt work, if necessary.

The Samurai replacements will be packing more advanced weaponry, lots of useful gear, some useful skills not mentioned in the book (like Small Unit Tactics at 5) and WIL at least 5. The mages will be in much better physical shape, although that shouldn't matter, and will have more useful spells, and I plan to use them as much as possible.

The purpose is to make the battle nearly unwinnable. They will be given a chance to run away -- if they open fire early on, they've got a clear avenue of escape and the firepower to discourage people from following. If they want the case as well, they'll have to work hard for it. If they get pinned down, I'll probably allow them to escape through the sewers or something. So I'm not too worried about them getting slaughtered. But if they're 100% certain to be killed within 3 seconds, that's not much use.

I haven't got much experience running a battle with this many elite troops, so I'd appreciate any opinions. I'll probably make a good sheet of tactics they'll use in different situations to make it easier on myself.
TinkerGnome
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Apr 29 2004, 08:42 AM)
The purpose is to make the battle nearly unwinnable.

Certainly looks like it will be wink.gif

The thing to keep in mind (the thing that gives the PCs a chance) is that all of that troop movement takes time. If they light up one of the helos, it's going to be several seconds before another one can come around on them to deal with the situation unless the fire from range.

Probably, the arrivals would be staggered to within a 3 or 4 round period. It'd be close, but you can only get so close with that many vehicles to coordinate.

I'd expect the helicopters to have a rigger pilot and a door gunner with a MMG at the least, so shooting the copters probably isn't a good idea. Do they have access to AV rounds or rockets? If so, you'll probably have a lot of dead special ops guys. The rigger would likely start jinking (maybe sending one or two samurai to their deaths) in order to save his own neck and that of his crew.
toturi
If the runners are experienced, wouldn't they be able to access the kind of fireworks that can light up the helos and the APCs?

By the way... wouldn't the word on the street be abuzz with the news that the Army is invading where-ever you are placing your meet? APCs aren't usually seen on the street, you know.

Oh, by the way... I think the RRS are as rare as the Aztec Jag Guards, so there are about 1000+ of them worldwide, commiting nearly a platoon of them... I would think Sherman Huang was in that case.
phaedrus
Youch! I reckon you are likely to fry these guys. How many on this team? I ran the standard play-it-as-you-read-it scenario two weeks ago with a semi newbie runner team of four and they did cream the red sams, but I was being really nice (I really didn't want to kill off any of the runners: 2 were brand new to SR and one was back after a long hiatus). I did run it ages back with newbs and they only survived through the intervention of Doc Wagon and that was inspite of their extreme stupidity. I know trolls are big, but even trolls don't like several bursts of AK98's at close range...
Some of the instructions are pretty dumb - the red sams will always attack multiple targets - why would they? Why would you drop both teams smack bang into the intersection and give anyone from any distance down those roads a clear shot at you?
The killer was that almost all of this team is fast - really fast - even the mage (the only experienced runner, a grade 2 initiate) had amped up his relfexes with an appropriate spell. even it up by giving the red sams some more initiative dice. One runner was injured badly, but that was about it. Quite nasty what a grenade can do to a helo full of people... (Why doesn't the book give stats on the helos?!? I realised this as one character fired his grenade launcher at the open side of the helo...) The cyber zombie can get knocked out way too easily if his controllers go down, which surprise, surprise, they do as soon as any runner mage astrally perceives the situation and takes them down with something messy. I think it was ball lightening in this case...
I'd love to hear how it goes.
simonw2000
What about using deltaware for the CZ? vegm.gif
Mardegun
Keep in mind that the following comments are more about general advice then specially for your case...

I have an important question
1) When you say they are experienced, what do you mean?
A. Are they familiar with SR?
B. Do they love combat? Is that how they have fun?
C. Do they like to role-playing? Or do they just play role-playing games to kill stuff?

Personally I play rpgs, because I like to role-play. However I do LOVE combat, but combat for combat sake is boring ... which I know isn't the point here

In any case I think your plan is bad for two reasons.
1) Never, ever "start at the top" In other words never give the players your best at the start of the game. If you judge how good a combat by how tough the opponents are, isn't ever combat after this going to feel boring? Unless you make all combats difficult, which is equally bad.

2) Tough/Fun combats don't have to involve touch enemies. When I do a combat emphasize the story elements rather than the brutality or difficultly. Believe it or not the combats people remember best are the ones that meant something to the characters. Think about movies, do you remember the hard fought battles or the ones that really made you feel something.

3) Not all combats are thoroughly thought out. Just because the enemies are good, doesn't mean they won't make mistakes. As a GM I am sure you can think of plenty of reasons why their plan or behaviors are imperfect.

4) I strongly suggest NOT to increase stats of npcs. Beefing npc is a slippery slope that is very hard to recover from. Just accept that starting PC characters are overpower, when compare to average Joes. Heck even combat experienced npcs are rarely as good as starting PC and I am not even talking about munchkin PCs.

Remember that the key to a tough combat is target numbers NOT the individual toughness of the npcs. There are so many modifiers in SR, that it is very easy to take down even the toughest starting characters.

Personally I always think it is better to have a lot of weaker opponents, than several really tough ones. I save the tough encounters to add atmosphere to the game ... which may be your goal here.

5) Not every fight has to be tough. It can be a lot of fun to let PCs take out a lot of weaker NPCs. I know this isn't the point with red sams, but keep it in mind for future encounters.

6) I wish I had more time to write more ideas, but I don't. wink.gif

In closing, you seem to have a good mind for details and your really want to make this a fun experience. My personal option is that, you should spent less time beefing up the npc and perfecting the combat plan and focus on atmosphere. Think more about how each character will feel about the situation and use that to make the encounter feel more exciting and fun.

In short think more like a story teller, than a general. smile.gif
Entropy Kid
If the runners aren't concealed (magically, inside a building, etc.) they'll show up on the thermographic camera the Renraku helicopters should be checking the area with (just like modern police or military helos). If the runners are carrying their weapons, the riggers in the helos will see that too. If the riggers see a team ready to rock and roll in the street they'll use some suppressive fire so they (and the Red Samurai teams) don't get lit up when attempting to land. Once the helos drop the Red Samurai, they can also help by taking out drones they spot.

The cyberzombie as written is weak, the runners will probably have better stats. Raising its numbers, equipping it with a MMG (and a box of APDS), and getting rid of the Willpower test to act business will help. Having the articulated arm to use an assault rifle or LMG to lay down suppressive fire at the same time might be neat as well. If there are any ECU left, it might be useful to have a cybershotgun or other firearm as a backup in one of the CZ's arms. Even if not supercharging the CZ, I expect letting it act independent of the mages will make it a lot more effective, and allow the mages to do their job instead of babysitting. If not going after the runners or their spirits, elementals can protect the CZ from Watcher gangs or some other weird tactics the runners try on it. If letting the CZ act independently of the mages, it doesn't have to be in a separate vehicle either. Just have it jump out of a helo (hydraulic jacks to cushion the landing) ready to go.

I agree with toturi on limiting the number of RS used and the APC issue. If more manpower is needed, maybe the RS should be aided by "normal" Renraku security arriving in (slightly) more discrete transportation. Although (only) 15 RS might be an appropriate number. Thinking about it; why is there even a cyberzombie in this scenario?

If the driver isn't hurt badly, she'll probably take off at the first opportunity, case and all. That might help the runners if she knows to run toward them, but she might just run away in general. Since she's still alive in your version, there's another potential complication. Of course, she might be incapacitated from the crash or unable to get out of the car if that's not something you want to deal with.
CoalHeart
Don't forget to use every visual modifier in the book. Red Sams would have no problem throwing smoke grenades, using ruthenium suits modified with improved invisviblity and stealth, and snatching that package up before anyone noticed.


Why waste a whole team and all that heavy equipment when one red samurai uberninja can do it? He'll be able to kill the entire team of runners unnoticed, while being protected by spells by projecting mages using spell defense.
booklord
When I saw the First Run book at the store I considered buying it. But after skimming through it decided I could skip it.

In particular I thought Supernova looked like one of the worst adventures ever made. They set up a ridiculous amount of opposition and then handicap them so the players have a chance. In games I like to run the word "Cyber-zombie" brings a moment of silence generally followed by one character screaming "run for your lives!", A squad of Red Samurai would be a match for an experienced group of runners, and Richard Villiers would never leave himself so exposed or in a position where he would meet face-to-face with unstable elements like newbie shadowrunners.

Austere Emancipator
A few things that I left out, stupid me. Most importantly, this is in a country in the middle of a civil war, and there is some military presence all over. Military helicopters flying overhead are not that uncommon, nor are APCs on the streets. This particular spot is chosen so that there is no actual military presence within ~10 or more kilometers, and all of the setting will look slightly different. The military will not be able to get there until several minutes have passed, but the PCs don't know this.

QUOTE (TinkerGnome)
The thing to keep in mind (the thing that gives the PCs a chance) is that all of that troop movement takes time. If they light up one of the helos, it's going to be several seconds before another one can come around on them to deal with the situation unless the fire from range.

They should have no reason to fire at the helo overhead until it fires at the car -- they'll think it's a military helo, and firing at it would attract too much attention.

Then that helo will start circling fast, and the other 2 helos will come in really fast, really low, and drop the troops out of view. I'm quite confident that the insertion helos are not in danger. The actual dropping of the troops will take only a second or two.

The attackers are not Red Samurai, they are above-average S-K HRT guys. They do not have as high Inits (not as much cyberware overall), but they are very skilled. There is a good reason for them to be in the area.

The players are experienced in SR, they like combat, but are not particularly fond of HC roleplaying. This is not the first run for them, and they have had plenty of heavy combat in the past. This is just the first time with this many elite troops.

The attackers are bound to make mistakes. Even with a rather solid plan, things will go wrong. I'm not that good a tactician, and my players are quirky sometimes.

Attributes are, in general, higher in my games. IMG, 5/5/5/2/5/5 isn't very rare for SpecOps operators. However, I might drop Int to 4 instead -- I simply think Willpower is more important for these guys.

Overall, these guys are used to combat. Sometimes easy, sometimes hard. Usually, hard battles are ones with lots of weak opponents. This is a clear change of pace for them.

Got to go, the game is already on, and the players are wondering why I'm snickering behind my screen... I'll return for more later.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (booklord)
When I saw the First Run book at the store I considered buying it.  But after skimming through it decided I could skip it.

In particular I thought Supernova looked like one of the worst adventures ever made.  They set up a ridiculous amount of opposition and then handicap them so the players have a chance.  In games I like to run the word "Cyber-zombie" brings a moment of silence generally followed by one character screaming "run for your lives!",  A squad of Red Samurai would be a match for an experienced group of runners, and Richard Villiers would never leave himself so exposed or in a position where he would meet face-to-face with unstable elements like newbie shadowrunners.

Well, the adventure gives suggestions on how to handle things if the players are getting a little trigger happy when face to face with Villiers and Lanier.

Remember also that these adventures are for people new to Shadowrun. There's going to be some leeway in the way things proceed. The goal of Supernova is to unnerve the players but also give them a small confidence boost, not to blow them away. If you want to use it for advanced players, you can probably tweak it so it makes more sense to you and them, or just run your own.
snowRaven
Let me just say that you ARE going the right way — I used everything from pushing the envelope (and a bit more), made the Red Samurai veterans (higher attributes, much higher skills, Small Unit Tactics, better cyberware based on the Red Samurai stats in Arcology Shutdown and Brainscan, and better equipment) and my team still managed the fight without too much casualties. I suggest working out better tactics than the Samurai use in the book.

I also gave the Red Samurai better weaponry:

To replace SMGs:
SCK Model 500
Conc 4, Mode SA/BF/FA, Ammo 30©, Damage 7M, Weight 5.0, RC 0
SmartlinkII, accepts barrel and top mounts.

To replace ARs (including the one the Cyberzombie carries):
Izom AR-600 Hammer
Conc 5, Mode SA/BF/FA, Ammo 38©, Damage 8M, Weight 5.25, RC 5
Bullpup, Heavy barrel, Short barrel(-10% ranges), GasVent III, Smartlink II, no stock, Biometric Safety, Personalized Grip.

(The last one is quite broken, I know, but in my games the Red Samurai veterans are the only ones equipped with it (due to the very high production costs) and only on special missions.)
Austere Emancipator
Righty-o. The group are now taking their down time between getting the case and this. Some new situational modifiers, as well as lots of stuff I didn't think of.

The CZ... won't be there. It simply doesn't fit this version of the run. The S-K guys don't have as much hi-tech toys as RRS should. I know the CZ might be fun, but I'll have to save that hilarity for later.
Similarly, the troops see the following changes:
The two (wheeled) APCs have simple HRT guys -- lower tech & stats overall. Two teams of 6 without mages. Their tactics remain the same.
The 2 mages for the helo teams drop from the helos with the other guys.

The PCs won't be getting any extra firepower now, so they're stuck with rifle-caliber weapons and 2 grenade launchers with only a few grenades. To get at the insertion helos, they'd have to position themselves extremely well or pull some cool stunts -- and if they do that, they have earned the kills. If they open up with heavy fire at the APCs they might destroy one of those (AV grenades for the GLs), but I'll make sure that the APCs do all they can to make hitting them really hard while they're closing in, and they won't approach straight on 100th but zigzag between blocks to get closer.

QUOTE (Mardegun)
My personal option is that, you should spent less time beefing up the npc and perfecting the combat plan and focus on atmosphere.

I'll have time for that. The problem is, I simply am more of a general than a story teller. smile.gif The tactics and stats will keep bugging me too much for me to conncentrate on the story, unless I've got them ready.

(Un)fortunately, my players also have (bad) habit of disregarding most of the athmosphere if they think they have a tough battle ahead. I'll try and make most of the athmosphere before they know they're in for a battle.

Sensors of the helos: Hadn't given that much thought. The one appearing on site just before the car will certainly have time to spot any runners in the open. Most of the runners are bound to be invisible, but that's no problem for sensors. I'll just have to see how that plays out. Most likely, they'll fire at the helo enough to force it to dive out of sight (or destroy it, if they're lucky), so the attacking team won't have that advantage for long. Still, it might change the affect S-K tactics at first.

The driver taking away: Hadn't thought of that at all. All things considered (I won't get into the details...), she's quite likely to try and do something. The car will crash right smack in the middle of the corner, though, so she won't get far. I'll have to think of proper ways for her to react to things. She'll be running away from the APCs, that's for sure, but by the time she'll get out of the car a great number of things might've happened.

CoalHeart: While the single elite guy idea might be very interesting in the original setup, the S-K guys cannot count on that working. They have a reason for having a decent amount of manpower around, and to expect that such an attempt to sneak at the case in this situation wouldn't work. If the runners get away with both the cases, however, they might try a sneaky "ninja" approach later on. Will have to keep it in mind.

Won't be a Richard Villiers or anyone near that level of power in this version. smile.gif At best, they'll have a meet with a rather high level organized crime boss.

I'm not worried about the S-K guys' weapons, that's sort of my specialty. A knack for storytelling or a great imagination are far better attributes for a GM, but being good with RPG-guns has at least some use. wink.gif
Scarecrow237
I was going to run Supernova for my small team, a Melee centered Sam, a Face and a Combat Decker, but before I did, I ran the numbers. I rolled for the players and the Red Sams and determined that the players would be smears on the pavement before the 2nd initiative pass. I played as if they had some sense of combat strategy and not as if I were them. (Players can do the strangest things) I decided to hold off on playing this scenario until they spend more Karma in the right place and/or get bigger guns. They are not combat heavies at all so even with the handicaps in the published scenario they're not ready yet. I understand that Shadowrun is supposed to be deadly, but I didn't want to go killing anyone in the second game session.
booklord
I suppose I can better explain why I don't like Supernova. Because it supports munchkins.

I could partition opposition runners run into in the following strengths with some variation.

Rent-a-Cops / ganger -- poor skills + poor weaponry
Security guards / beat cop -- Moderate skills + moderate weaponry
Military troopers -- Moderate skills + heavy weaponry
Elite troopers / SWAT team -- Excellent skills + heavy weaponry
Specialists -- Remarkable skills + top of line weaponry

Well we'd have the Red Samurai ( Elite Troopers) and a cyber zombie (Specialist). If the players lose its effectively my fault for putting them in a position where they couldn't win. Their next characters will likely focus more on combat on less on role-playing skills. If the players win then they'll lose respect for both cyber-zombies which should scare the hell out of any player and the Red Samurai. The next time the players come across some powerful opposition they might choose to fight rather than the much more reasonable option of running. They may charge into combat as cocky as a munchkin and get their caracasses handed to them.

In the games I run the opposition can almost always call up a superior force when needed. The runners advantage is that they are often done and gone before those forces can be used. This requires stealth, planning, and a good grasp of when to fight and when to run. Munchkins that try to shoot their way in, crush all opposition, and shoot their way out will find themselves with a very short life expectancy.
toturi
QUOTE (booklord)
Well we'd have the Red Samurai ( Elite Troopers) and a cyber zombie (Specialist). If the players lose its effectively my fault for putting them in a position where they couldn't win. Their next characters will likely focus more on combat on less on role-playing skills. If the players win then they'll lose respect for both cyber-zombies which should scare the hell out of any player and the Red Samurai. The next time the players come across some powerful opposition they might choose to fight rather than the much more reasonable option of running. They may charge into combat as cocky as a munchkin and get their caracasses handed to them.

In the games I run the opposition can almost always call up a superior force when needed. The runners advantage is that they are often done and gone before those forces can be used. This requires stealth, planning, and a good grasp of when to fight and when to run. Munchkins that try to shoot their way in, crush all opposition, and shoot their way out will find themselves with a very short life expectancy.

Untrue. My players never had any difficulty in running away before the first shot was ever fired. There are ways to clue them in to the fact they are outclassed, for example, the "reverse" of the wrong party modifiers - their fixer or a Level 2/3 contact of theirs tells them that the word on the street is that X corp's elite troops are being prepped for some serious ass kicking (ok, I won't make it so blatantly obvious but it was just an example).
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