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BlackJaw
So I saw this idea posted in another forum thread, and I'm curious how valid it is. I suspect less than the original poster thought it was.

You're playing a rigger or decker (because RAW page 221 states that your Commlink has "got all of the necessary software already loaded, but unlike a cyberdeck it has no space for cyberprograms or other hacking tools.", a topic for another thread.) You buy a rating 4 Agent program, the highest you can get at character creation at availability rating X3. That agent is run in one of your program slots on your Deck or RCC (let's ignore the vague definition of how many non-autosoft programs the RCC can run, that's another thread.) We'll assume most of your important wireless enabled gear is slaved to that same device.

Now you set that Agent to always take the Full Matrix Defense Action, and if it has any other actions left, to analyze icons looking for trouble to report to you. IE: "Sir, you appear to be in a fire fight, but I regret to inform you that you have a strange MARK on your Ares Predator V." For the purposes of the following questions, I'm more concerned with the first part of this task: Full Matrix Defense.

Now normally, if you run an agent by itself, it generates a Persona from your device (the Deck or RCC), which it replaces/absorbs, much as a normal user replaces the device icon with a persona icon. See page 235: "Agents running alone on a device replace the device icon the same way a living user does. If you’re running an agent along with your persona, it appears with its own separate persona, even though you’re using the same device." For the purposes of questions 1 and 2, the device is assumed to be running without an active user as well. Question 3 assumes that you are also logged into the matrix with a persona.

So, here are the questions:

1) The rating 4 Agent effectively has a 4 willpower. Thanks to the Full Matrix Defense, it will get to add this 4 dice to any defense tests it gets to make, but does this also extend to to the device it's running on?
My thoughts: Because it's persona has absorbed the Deck/RCC, I imagine it does defend that device, as any matrix attacks against the device will be against the agent's icon. You can't target the deck separately.

2) Assuming 1 is "yes, it applies" what about attacks on other icons you own? Does it protect your wireless enabled gun which is slaved to the deck/RCC? I assume no, because if someone attacks the gun, "You" are making the roll for your gun, not the agent as it is not directly targeted, and "full matrix defense" isn't a matrix attribute the gun can gain from slaving. Nor is the Agent the gun's owner, so it has no reason to be involved.

3) Now let's complicate things and say your character is also on the matrix, and therefore has a Persona. Your persona has absorbed the Deck, and the Agent is given it's own separate Persona Icon. In this case, I'm not sure the 4 Dice bonus from matrix full defense applies to anything other than the agent. It's now possible for matrix attackers to target your icon instead of the agent's icon, and therefore inflict damage onto your deck without the agent being involved.
T2-Keks
I read the matrix full defense as an action that protects a persona.

@question1: I agree with you. Since the deck can only be damaged by attacking the agent's persona, yes, the full defense bonus will apply.

@question2: I agree with you again, basically. But this is the tricky one i think. As i wrote above i think that the defense bonus will ever only work for a persona. The added quastion here is if the slaved devices can draw ratings from a master device that in theory is no device anymore because it became a persona. I asked about this a few minutes ago here. Maybe a technomancer can hold up as a comparison: He is always a persona, no deck (device) and cannot slave devices to himself.

@question3: Agreed again smile.gif
Dolanar
one thing, one of your situations assumes that you can attack the gun individually if its slaved to the commlink, I do not think this is true, if a device is slaved to your commlink it is subsumed under the commlink's icon, which is then subsumed by your persona or the Agent's Persona.

#1. A Full Matrix defense states that you gain Firewall+Intution+Willpower for a dicepool (this assumes someone is using an attack against you which you already get a defense test against, the full Matrix Defense adds willpower to the pool) this would work for any device slaved to the commlink which you are authorizing the Agent to defend.

#2. if the wireless gun is connected to your PAN & slaved to your commlink then assuming you were not actively on the Matrix your Agent would defend all icon's slaved to the commlink (assuming this is what the Agent was ordered to do)

#3. FMD is an interrupt action, if you are in a situation where you are in a firefight or some such & the Agent is unable to take care of it, you can switch to FMD during the Hacker's action for a -10 init & you would still have the Firewall+Intuition+Willpower dicepool.
Jaid
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Aug 17 2013, 01:44 PM) *
one thing, one of your situations assumes that you can attack the gun individually if its slaved to the commlink, I do not think this is true, if a device is slaved to your commlink it is subsumed under the commlink's icon, which is then subsumed by your persona or the Agent's Persona.


you can still target it. otherwise how would you copy a file that is absorbed into someone's persona? it would be impossible. all you would need for unbreakable file protection would be to have it absorbed into a persona, and it's safe forever.

just because something becomes part of your icon/persona doesn't mean it can't be targeted any more.
Dolanar
generally speaking a file is not slaved to a persona it is often held in a location inside a host.

As mentioned in the rules, a Slaved device uses its own or the master's device rating for all defense tests, whichever is higher, so you DR2 gun slaved to your DR6 commlink uses your commlink's Firewall6 & if doing so yours or the Agent's intution & or will power (if using FMD)

Page 233 for rules on slaving.

edit: also correct you can target my smartgun if its slaved to my commlink, but it won;t be any easier to crack than my commlink.
Jaid
right, the slaved <whatever> uses the defence of the master. which is only relevant if you can target the slaved <whatever> (and in fact, there are special rules for targeting the slave via a direct connection which clearly indicates they can be targeted without one).

but that's not what was asked. the question was about stuff that is subsumed into the persona, and files have that happen quite regularly. if you have a file (say, a music file) on your commlink, which you use for accessing the matrix, you don't have the icon of a music file following you around everywhere you go. it's subsumed into your persona.
Dolanar
in which case they would tack on a couple of marks, perform a snoop command to look for the file, then run crack file, then edit it to copy the file to their commlink to get the information for it I imagine
T2-Keks
I disagree that the bonus of FMD applies to any device that is slaved to the deck from which the agent runs. Interrupt actions are used by characters to defend themselves, so the only way the agent could protect a device is if an attack was directed at the agent and therefore on the deck that it runs on.

Even if you assume that the agent could defend slaved devices you have to consider that the agent only gets to make that interrupt when it is not surprised. I am not sure how surprise and matrix combat works when a hidden persona attacks.

Meanwhile: Any ideas about the question if a device that became a persona can still be masters?
Dolanar
I don't see why not. The persona only takes over while its being actively used that wouldn't prevent the previous slaving of devices.
Flaser
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 17 2013, 08:18 PM) *
right, the slaved <whatever> uses the defence of the master. which is only relevant if you can target the slaved <whatever> (and in fact, there are special rules for targeting the slave via a direct connection which clearly indicates they can be targeted without one).

but that's not what was asked. the question was about stuff that is subsumed into the persona, and files have that happen quite regularly. if you have a file (say, a music file) on your commlink, which you use for accessing the matrix, you don't have the icon of a music file following you around everywhere you go. it's subsumed into your persona.


No it isn't. The file is still part of your PAN and not subsumed. Your icon (the persona) replaces the icon of the commlink/deck/RCC, *not* the PAN as a whole. I'll quote myself, since I already explained why you're wrong in another thread:

QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 7 2013, 09:44 PM) *
"A file is a collection of data. It can be a film, a song, a book, financial records, an image, a news article, and so on. It can even be a collection of other files (a “folder”)." - pg. 219

"Most of what you keep on your commlink are files, this includes music, your SIN (fake or otherwise), licenses (also fake or otherwise), maps, email messages, your contact book, AROs, and so on. These files are visible to people who can see your commlink in the Matrix, so most people keep all of their files in a protected folder." - pg 222

So in the Matrix, files are small icons visible to everyone who's spotted your commlink (or persona, since the moment you start using it, the device icon transforms into your persona). You can circumvent this, by putting your sensitive stuff in another file (a folder), then protecting it, which can be done with the "Edit File" matrix action.

"To protect a file, make a Simple Computer + Logic [Data Processing] test. The number of hits you get becomes the rating of the protected file. A protected file cannot be read, changed, deleted, or copied until its protection is broken." - pg. 239


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...t&p=1251985

QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 8 2013, 04:43 PM) *
"There are uncounted billions of icons in the Matrix. Devices have icons in the Matrix in sort of the same way that living things have auras in astral space. This could get overwhelming, but some background tech keeps
things from getting out of control. The first piece of assistance comes from your commlink, which automatically filters out the least interesting icons. Do you want to know the virtual location of every music player in the world? Right, neither do I. So the Matrix will usually show you an icon for an individual’s personal area network (PAN), not every device in that network (although it makes exceptions for interesting or dangerous devices in that network, such as a gun)."


QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 8 2013, 04:43 PM) *
"Most individuals have multiple electronic devices on them at once, and having icons for each one show up would provide too much visual clutter in the Matrix. Often, what shows up instead is an icon representing an individual’s personal area network. This icon often looks similar to the physical device that serves as master for the network, such as a commlink, but individuals will sometimes choose a design or logo that means something to them (such as sports team logos, Concrete Dreams album covers, or corporate designs). Some devices are not merged into the single PAN icon; if an individual is carrying a wireless-enabled gun—or any other wireless device that might kill you—it will show up separately so that it can be identified rapidly. Unless, of course, the user has gone to the trouble to hide that icon, but that’ll be covered later."


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1252188

So "not shown" = / = "subsumed"

You can still see all devices & files in a PAN, you just need to take a closer look. (Adjust your matrix perception filters).
quentra
QUOTE (Flaser @ Aug 17 2013, 04:16 PM) *
You can still see all devices & files in a PAN, you just need to take a closer look. (Adjust your matrix perception filters).


Or, to put it mechanically (since there's no 'adjust your matrix filters' action) it requires a hit on a matrix perception check with the question of 'What files is the target carrying?'
Jaid
and if that file is on a device that no longer has an icon because it just got subsumed into a persona? for example, if you use your commlink to access the matrix (which most normal people will), and your commlink has files on it... can those files be targeted, in spite of the fact that the icon they were part of just vanished?

it's not part of your PAN in that case. it is literally a part of the device from which your persona is running, and has been subsumed into your persona.

personally, i would say that yes, you can still target it. being subsumed into your persona didn't make it inaccessible, and it doesn't make anything else inaccessible either.

in any event, there have been a number of threads where the devs indicated that the expected defense to keeping your gear from being bricked was for everyone to slave it to your decker's gear, and that your decker would be spending actions on full matrix defense to keep your gear secure. i see no reason why changing that from "hacker" to "agent" that it would suddenly become impossible.
Epicedion
Full Matrix Defense only appears to work if the actual defender uses it -- you can't Full Matrix Defense to give your bonus to someone else's stuff, even if it's slaved. Text:

QUOTE
This allows you to defend against Attack actions, and
may be taken at any time. Whenever you make a defense
test against a Matrix Action, add your Willpower to the
dice pool (or add it again if it’s already in there). When
you take this action, your Initiative Score is reduced by
10, but the effects last for the rest of the Combat Turn.


This appears to specifically apply to the person making the defense test. Slaving only allows the person making the defense test to use the master's attributes in place of the slave's for a defense test, rather than making the master (and the master's owner) make a defense test for it.

An Agent always has its own separate persona when it's running, and so is independently targeted -- if someone targets your persona or your deck's icon rather than the Agent's persona, you don't get the Full Matrix Defense from the agent, again because Full Matrix Defense only applies if used by the target of an attack action.
Jaid
huh. well that's funny.

the supposed ability of the decker to defend the rest of the team actually doesn't even particularly exist, in that case. go figure. just makes me more glad that i don't plan on relying on online bonuses to function =S
Epicedion
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 17 2013, 10:16 PM) *
huh. well that's funny.

the supposed ability of the decker to defend the rest of the team actually doesn't even particularly exist, in that case. go figure. just makes me more glad that i don't plan on relying on online bonuses to function =S


The best defense is probably a good offense. Also it would be pretty dumb to set your deck into an attack configuration and start damaging gear when an enemy decker is standing right there ready to link-lock you and melt your brain while you're not paying attention to him.
Jaid
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Aug 17 2013, 11:25 PM) *
The best defense is probably a good offense. Also it would be pretty dumb to set your deck into an attack configuration and start damaging gear when an enemy decker is standing right there ready to link-lock you and melt your brain while you're not paying attention to him.


a good offence isn't guaranteed to work. staying offline is.

so no, the best defence isn't a good offence in this case. it's actually opting out.

also, it's generally a stupid idea to go breaking gear in the first place. oh, specific scenarios may call for wrecking someone's gear, but really, if you want to disable someone, i recommend referring to the toxins section of the rulebook, not the matrix section. waste of bloody time for a PC hacker, only worth anything to NPC hackers because there's no particularly compelling reason (other than metagame reasons) the enemy couldn't just have their full available team of hackers show up to wreck anything they can get their digital hands on if there's a bunch of available targets. if you're actually there in person and you don't have a whole bunch of people to lay waste to everything in reach before they can react, you're much better off just shooting people.

if i am a hacker and want to have an impact on a combat situation, and for some reason i absolutely refuse to just pick up a gun and actually contribute in the most reasonable way, i will hack the environment. i will find a car, hack it, and make it drive into my enemies, or i will subvert security systems, or lock doors, shut down elevators, and otherwise take any number of actions that will actually have any meaning beyond, at best, disabling a single person. shutting down the elevator or bricking an electronically-controlled door that an HTR team has to use to get to my location gives me so much more than bricking the eyes of someone who isn't even smart enough to properly defend them... the former gives my team protection from a dangerous threat (or at least buys time), the latter makes life miserable for someone who was likely never more than a roadblock intended to delay me until the real threats can get on site anyways. if they were dumb enough to leave something significant online, they probably sucked badly enough that the street sam can deal with them in the same burst as a couple of other equally ineffectual enemy.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 18 2013, 12:53 AM) *
a good offence isn't guaranteed to work. staying offline is.

so no, the best defence isn't a good offence in this case. it's actually opting out.

also, it's generally a stupid idea to go breaking gear in the first place. oh, specific scenarios may call for wrecking someone's gear, but really, if you want to disable someone, i recommend referring to the toxins section of the rulebook, not the matrix section. waste of bloody time for a PC hacker, only worth anything to NPC hackers because there's no particularly compelling reason (other than metagame reasons) the enemy couldn't just have their full available team of hackers show up to wreck anything they can get their digital hands on if there's a bunch of available targets. if you're actually there in person and you don't have a whole bunch of people to lay waste to everything in reach before they can react, you're much better off just shooting people.

If I am a hacker and want to have an impact on a combat situation, and for some reason i absolutely refuse to just pick up a gun and actually contribute in the most reasonable way, i will hack the environment. i will find a car, hack it, and make it drive into my enemies, or i will subvert security systems, or lock doors, shut down elevators, and otherwise take any number of actions that will actually have any meaning beyond, at best, disabling a single person. shutting down the elevator or bricking an electronically-controlled door that an HTR team has to use to get to my location gives me so much more than bricking the eyes of someone who isn't even smart enough to properly defend them... the former gives my team protection from a dangerous threat (or at least buys time), the latter makes life miserable for someone who was likely never more than a roadblock intended to delay me until the real threats can get on site anyways. if they were dumb enough to leave something significant online, they probably sucked badly enough that the street sam can deal with them in the same burst as a couple of other equally ineffectual enemy.


You aren't allowed to do that Jaid. It is counter to the design goals of SR5. Hackers are not able to affect the environment and perform the actions that you describe. If they were, then the lunacy of the Enhanced Hacker would never have been an issue. Get with the Program. *sigh*
shonen_mask
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Aug 17 2013, 11:09 PM) *
Full Matrix Defense only appears to work if the actual defender uses it -- you can't Full Matrix Defense to give your bonus to someone else's stuff, even if it's slaved. Text:



This appears to specifically apply to the person making the defense test. Slaving only allows the person making the defense test to use the master's attributes in place of the slave's for a defense test, rather than making the master (and the master's owner) make a defense test for it.

An Agent always has its own separate persona when it's running, and so is independently targeted -- if someone targets your persona or your deck's icon rather than the Agent's persona, you don't get the Full Matrix Defense from the agent, again because Full Matrix Defense only applies if used by the target of an attack action.



If the Agent is running on a device then any attack on that device, which will contain your persona as well, can be treated as an attack on the agent. The device essentially has two personas representing it.
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