My group has been toying with the idea of supplementing the SR5 wireless bonuses/cyberware hacking rules. We're interested in other groups' experiences, either with the default rules or variants of them.

Here's what we've been discussing:

1. The group is torn between loving the idea of hacking being useful in a firefight with hating the idea of having one's own cyberware being hacked. In particular, the idea that one's cyberlimb or cybereyes could be bricked is distasteful. We're therefore thinking of ruling that one advantage of paying essence for cyberware is that it is inherently unhackable (or requires a wired connection, which amounts to the same thing in a firefight). So, for example, deckers would be free to brick goggles, but not cybereyes.

2. So far, the only exception to the no-hacking-cyberware rule would be for internal commlinks and cyberdecks, which can still be hacked and bricked as normal. Because nobody has been getting internal commlinks or cyberdecks for fear of needing surgery in order to repair matrix damage -- despite the fact that we love the flavor of decks-as-cyberware -- we're thinking of ruling that the damage to a bricked cybercommlink/deck can be fixed with the normal hardware test. I guess the idea would be that the bricked components can be accessed through a port or can be ejected somehow and replaced. We'd probably make the same ruling with respect to upgrading an internal commlink/deck once the rules for doing so come out.

3. In order to give a strong incentive for firearms to be wireless-enabled, we're thinking of ruling that all firearms -- except rare throwbacks -- have free internal biometric safeties and smartlinks that give +2 accuracy/+2 dice, and can be paired for free with any goggles, glasses, contacts, or cybereyes (i.e., no need to purchase, pay essence, or use capacity for the smartlink vision mod). We're still debating as to whether the biometric safety/smartlink system could be disabled in some fashion. But so far, there are no votes for allowing it to be done on the fly. At a minimum, it would require some sort of hardware or armorer extended test in order to prevent the smartlink system from being disabled in the middle of battle (making deckers even more of a threat during combat). One player favors making it impossible to disable the wireless connection. In any event, if the smartlink system were bricked, the weapon could not be fired until the damage is repaired. And as a consequence of the rule change, the only weapons that could have laser sights would be throwbacks.

4. We don't have a consensus about what to do with cyberimplanted guns. But I'd guess we're leaning towards treating them like guns rather than like cyberware (i.e., unhackable).

5. For melee weapons, we'd tweak the wireless bonuses in the book. In addition to the current wireless bonuses for the few weapons that have them, we'd perhaps add a "vibro" option for bladed weapons that gives them +1 AP in order to encourage players to use hackable melee weapons and to have a metagame reason for the bad guys to have hackable melee weapons. But we'd rule that the wireless options would be subject to the same restrictions on disabling to which firearms would be subject (i.e., either it would require an extended test or would be impossible).

6. We're also thinking of ruling that there is no way to disable the wireless connections for goggles, glasses, contacts, earbuds, and other audiovisual equipment. The theory would be that those enhancements require the processing power of your commlink to function. But the metagame reason is that we want to make them permanently hackable -- and if you want to avoid it, get implantable versions and pay essence.

7. So far, we're thinking of leaving the current rules in place with grenades (at least as we understand them). In other words, grenades can be made wireless with the press of a button, but are generally kept off (and thus made unhackable). We just can't come up with a rationale for why people would ever carry grenades if they were always wirelessly connected, enabling deckers to detonate them remotely.

8. We have no consensus about what to do with armor or other types of gear that have wireless bonuses. Some like the idea that deckers can detect these types of items wirelessly -- which is exactly why other players hate that idea. We also aren't sure of what the consequences of bricking, say, wifi-enabled chameleon suit or chemo-sealed armor.

I have been toying with the idea of making wireless an adjustable range. allowing you to keep it on, but put the setting to Short range, making it a 10 yard radius that can connect to it, this enables people to use the wireless, but anyone trying to hack them at that range is usually visible or able to be sensed in some way, then put a medium range at maybe 30 yards & then a long range at about 90 yards, most people will probably opt to use short range, but then when Tac Net's are introduced, if you are not in Wireless range of the Cyber Deck running the Master copy of the TacNet you'll receive no bonuses from the TacNet, so it will eventually change once I bring in my TacNet or legit TacNet rules & the players will need to decide which is better, the full use of the TacNet or sometimes keeping Wireless on lower ranges.

as to your #7. when throwing a Grenade, you should be able to change its wireless function with a free or simple action, then throw then blow it with a free action.

Most Wireless bonuses will be a 3 step process, 1. activate wireless, 2. use item for its function, 3. turn wireless off & put it away. Since there is no requirement for the wireless to be on permanently for most of their boosts, they are just quick use items, such as AutoPickers or Slap Patchs.

Well, for my group in PnP (and my PbP game) the wireless rules stay the same as written. In response to your particular posts:


1) If you want to guarantee your cybereyes aren't bricked, don't enable the wireless connection. (And I have a character in my PnP game who does exactly that - he is paranoid about deckers making him blind, and therefore never turns his cybereyes wireless on.) You can still use your cybeware without enabling their wireless connectivity - you just don't get the wireless bonuses - the price of being paranoid. For me, if you have a decent Commlink and a decker running overwatch for you, the odds of the decker bricking your cyberware before you even know he is there is really small - and then you just take an action to switch them off.

2) The fixing of Matrix damage to cyberware without invasive surgery seems logical - in that IMHO I do not feel the designers of the game wanted the penalty of having your cyberware hacked to be so much more punishing than having your gun or commlink hacked.

3) I am not sure why you need to give the characters a strong incentive to have their weapons wireless-enabled. They get 2 dice extra on their test - that is the incentive. If they don't want to take it, that's their choice. The bad guys will probably have their guns enabled - which will give the PC decker/technomancer something to do - and the NPC decker something to defend against. Why do you feel it to be necessary to add an extra rule?

4) This falls into my answers 1&3 above.

5) Ok - so with melee weapons, how exactly do you brick a club, or a sap, or even a knife? I understand you could turn make it so that it no longer got the "vibro" bonus, but you can't make a knife non-functioning with a decker. And one of the advantages of using a melee weapon in the game is that you can't be bricked...

6) Why? Again (same as guns) - with these items, that means if the wireless is off, they are going to have to have a wire connecting them to everything to make it work - i.e. if you have goggles with a smartlink, and the wireless is off, you need to then have it connected via a wire to your gun to have them function (and you still don't get the wireless bonus).

7) I agree, don't change that.

8 ) Bricking armor doesn't do anything to the actual armor value - at least that is the way I would rule it. For armor mods that give a wireless bonus, bricking it would disable that function. So, for Electrochromatic clothing, bricking it would cause it to be stuck in whatever configuration it is. For Chemical Seals - bricking it would make it so you couldn't seal (or unseal) the armor - you could break the seal by removing the helmet. Shock Frills and Thermal Dampening would cease functioning.

So far, in my PnP game, our group has run wireless enabled pretty consistently (except for Dallas - he's the paranoid one who thinks a decker is lurking around every corner ) - and sometimes it has caused a problem (one of my characters had their Ingram Smartgun bricked) and others not - their PAN's firewall held out long enough for the group's decker to chase off the other hacker.

From another perspective, try to imagine it this way - everything in our world now that is wireless can have that capability shut off with a flick of a switch - and I see no reason that would change in the next 60 years - especially given the threat caused by deckers/technomancers. The products would be sold with the ability to have it turned off and on at a moment's notice - the same way I can disable the wireless on my laptop.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade - simply providing my experience - also curious what caused your group to, on the one hand, make all cyberware completely immune to deckers while at the same time making all non-cyberware permanently susceptible to them?

I am with Lobo0705, the bonuses are there to give a tradeoff between wireless off and on.

With how hard it is to actually hack your cyberware if you have a hacker friend I don't really see the problem. (Game wise, some of it still makes no sense with neither logic or fluff)

Just consider this.

Where can you turn Control Thoughts-target off? Can I just not install a brain in my character so I am immune? A mage can do worse things to _anyone_ than a hacker can do to a person with only cyberware. And with the super-nerf to counterspelling (a single use pool) you have no "Firewall", it takes no marks that you can react to, you just suddenly switch team and drop a 18P grenade on yourself and your friends and there is _nothing_ they can do. (You attack yourself, not them, and you don't defend but you are considerate enough to walk up to them before detonating)

Giving lesser mage powers to hackers is nice. It makes bringing a defending hacker more important, at least if you want to use the fun toys yourself. Don't dare bring airburst grenades if you don't know that you are safe from hackers! One mark->Control Device (Lets detonate now) is all it takes for you to eat 18P.

I simply disallow those types of spells, I am against removing the playability of a PC from the hands of the PC & thats essentially what a control thoughts spell does, it relegates the PC character to an NPC.

Control spells were given a pretty big nerf, they get to roll to resist your spell every turn and subtract from your hits, and usually, your control spell will last maybe one round if that.

As for hacking goes, I just "nerfed" the fluff presented in the book about bricking (that part with the sparks and the fire) to be more of something like a system crash. I just say take a extended software or hardware test with intervals of a minute to repair the issue, so that when the hacker bricks your sams gun, he isn't completely screwed for the entire run, but just for the combat encounter (hope he brought a second gun)

I'm with leetnoob on this. Change the fluff so that there is no smoke and sparks. The built-in repair system from the main book works fine.

Our group does treat each discreet piece of cyberware (or any other item) as its own device for bricking, so no one should ever lose vision by having their eyes bricked (unless they are careless or stupid). They could lose their vision enhancement or smartlink, but not their ability to see. The only way they would lose their ability to see is if they had their actual cybereyes on-line rather then just their vision enhancement or smartlink hardware. Since each of those can be installed as a separate piece of cyberware there is no real reason to assume that bricking those will remove the ability to see. Impair it until turned off, sure but not remove it; especially after "nerfing" the fluff about smoke and sparks.

In my games as well. I actually like the new wireless rules, since they achieved what they intended to achieve: making wireless on/off a meaningful choice, as opposed to SR4, where you got to eat the cake and keep it.

lol, lets not get into that, there are 20+ pages on how "meaningful" that choice is, I think my games will have that choice actually mean more once I implement my TacNet system.

What I'm saying is that the wireless bonuses are perfectly fine in play (even though some are quite nonsensical fluffwise), and do not require any houserules. I do look forward to seeing your TacNet system though.

The nerfed fluff fire-part sounds very reasonable. A 'rest of combat' duration for brick is dangerous enough, no reason to say "your 200k nuyen gear is now destroyed, have fun.

Control got properly nerfed to something more sane, but one combat turn is plenty enough to fire that ares alpha grenade launcher on your friends (Or do other nasty things, the "grenades are ludicrously stupid"-argument is taken elsewhere).

And, Dolanar, I've read the thread about TacNet and that wirless bonus is a choice, but not a sufficently good or meaningful one and I agree. They did a half-arsed job at making wireless on "attractive" and most items have too little benefit to take the risk, I agree with that. Paranoid characters should not touch wireless but some items still give bonuses to extremely important things.

1) Jammer makes you near-immune to airburst (again, grenades.. sorry!) but without the drawback.
2) Airburst for undodgeable grenades
3) Vision enhancement to SPOT the sniper so you can roll _any_ defence and not eat 14+accuracy P damage in the face.
4) Drones. 24k nuyen for 4 dobermans with assault rifles is 8-10 extra full auto bursts per combat turn you direct at whatever target you wish to completely oblitirate. (granted, it costs 5k nuyen per drone they shoot at, but since that is 4 shots you don't take to YOUR face, it is a very cheap alternative to going full cyberlimb+armor+bonelacing that you need to survive more than 1 shot from most guns yourself)
5) Using Monowhip effectively for those who want to do melee without wasting karma/points on Strength. (Strength is a less pathetic stat now in SR5, but still, a ninja elf with 20 dice in exotic weapon whip performs pretty well)

To have +3 dice to detect an ambush can be a life saver, you can't ever have enough perception. Those are just a few that I can think of on the top of my head. To risk your wired reflexes for +2 extra reaction with expensive enhancers are however, not really a good choice. Risk-Reward is crappy there but having a defensive hacker gives quite a lot of bonus if you add upp all the little things that you can turn on with a good hacker defending you.

yes, but the thing is, you either need a team decker or you might as well walk around with a target on your back, or never bother with the wireless bonuses. Any non-decker who tries to defend themselves from a matrix attack has at MAX an 11 condition monitor with a dice pool of about 15-20 assuming you have a top of the line commlink, & high intuition & Willpower (assuming you use up 10 initiative to activate full matrix defense).

Best case scenario, you are about equal with all 3 rolls adding together, worst case, the Decker has you outclassed by some margin. The only benefit the defense has against Deckers, is determining how good the deck is, a low quality deck means a low Limit to the amount of hits a Decker can get on you. But even so, if a Decker can get 3 marks on your commlink, & then Data Spike you, you're looking at about 6+6+net hits in matrix damage which you resist with just your 14 dice (best case scenario).

TL;DR- If you're hit, you're bricked in all likelihood

If hit, you're bricked sounds like working as intended? Just like getting hit by a rifle, some spells, drone gun or melee weapon downs you in one hit?

Any less and it is a bit pointless, don't you think?

It feels forced, but if they wanted hacking to be something doable in combat, it has to be effective and hit as often as guns and do comparable damage and to defend against it shouldn't be trivial like it was in sr4 (commlink daisy chain, encryption abuse, etc).

That said, I still think you are onto something a bit better, more elegantly done and less fluff- and logic breaking than the current system but I have more trouble with Mytic Adepts being everything of two worlds or grenades bypassing all defences automaticly etc.

Here is what I use for mysads and grenade rules

For mysads, I give them two magic attributes, one is the normal magic attribute that determines spell use and skills, basically the magic skill for standard magicians. The other one determines their power point total, both use the attribute numbers when raising them with karma, and when building a character using priorities, you can split your magic rating you get from your magic attribute between them, and you can put special attributes in either one of them. I think they might be a bit underpowered when using the priority system, but if you are using a karmagen method, they are not too bad off, if your normal magician has F magic, then your mysad would have something like F-1 and F-2 or F-1 in both attributes for about the same karma cost, which is pretty fair.

For grenades, usually, I give the players a reflex or reflex + intuition check to dive the number of hits they got out of the way. They are still gonna take a shit ton of damage, but hey, it is a grenade (if airbursted grenades, give them a penalty of -1 or -2 or something to represent the quickened unexpected explosion).

well for the record, I was never in the camp of giving deckers more to do in combat, I felt they had as much to do as anyone, but I have also not yet played a decker, aside from character creation in 4a, but I would find that there are better ways to spend actions in combat than bricking the Sam's gun (of which he probably has 10).

As for the idea of working as intended, as a meat space player, I have several methods of increasing my survival against a gun or spell, I can use armor, I can add elemental resistances to my armor, I can increase my Body to get a higher damage track...as a meat space player vs a decker trying to brick my gear. I have a MAX damage track of 11, it can not increase. I have a max soak of 14, it cannot increase (exception is if I buy a Deck, but then I am a decker too) These are static figures assuming you have the best commlink money can buy (currently) also, multimillion nuyen prototype pieces apparently have a maximum rating of 6 which means they are still capped at 11 boxes & at that point 12 dice for soak not 14. if they added options to use some programs for commlinks for defense, maybe it would be different but commlink users cannot use hacking programs on their 'links & no common use programs help defending against deckers.

For grenade, I allow a defense roll (Reaction+Intuition) with each hit adding one meter to the scatter (or not) of the grenade.

Thus, grenades are less lethal (in particular, if the target use a -5init defense to add his gymnastic skill with a great physical limit... or spending an edge point).

But what if your party is a group of four coming down a hallway and a guard throws the grenade in the middle of your party, who makes the roll to affect scatter?

Well sure, although technically a DR6 Commlink is providing better "matrix armor" than a DR1 commlink, it's just that you reach max defense very early and cheaply. Probably more of a problem with how comms work and pricing than anything else.

yes, but its an easy fix, allow defensive hacking programs to be used by commlinks, allow people to load programs like Armor or something onto their links & be able to use it effectively.

Agreed! Although I do think a DR6 commlink should be a bit more expensive than it is. I'm not saying cyberdeck expensive, but it shouldn't be a negligible expense for anyone other than a Resource E character.

I actually go the other route. I think the Decks should be reduced in Price by a factor of 10. The New SR5 Economics are just insane...

I dunno, anything besides a DR6 commlink & decker's would be hitting everyone because lets face it there would be no way to stop them

According to the Pro-Wireless Camp, Deckers are so rare, that it should be a non-concern for everyone. I think they are blowing smoke, personally, but what can you do?

The difference between a DR6 amd DR5 commlink against something like a Data Spike is three dice, averaging one hit. I don't really see that being a huge difference. Am I missing something? (I really could be, I don't know).

If the launcher has his 3 hits, the grenade land in the middle of our party and each member make his defensive test to reduce damage with a mouvement of hit meters from the grenade.

its also 1 box less on the condition monitor, meaning its even easier to brick your commlink.

Personally if I were a decker, & I had even a decent skill with it & I knew the general populace had at best a DR3 commlink, I'd be collecting personal information like crazt, creating proxies & starting dozens of blackmail scams, stealing money directly is easier to be tracked, but when they give you their money willingly to avoid their secrets getting out...harder to track.

edit: the DR5 has a 10 condition Monitor, & 10 dice to defend maximum, the lower you go the less resistance any decker has to steal all your info.

It has 11 Boxes... You round up, unless that has also changed.

Also... The Common man has nothing of value to the Shadowrunner, so, who cares?

It can be a good way to finance yourself, but best to rotate areas as this sort of activity is what GOD looks for to keep the average wageslave safe. The episode on NCIS which started outwith them picking up a girl who was scanning peoples cards with a scanner as she walked through the crowds comes to mind.

Also, best not let too many people know you do this as then they will never know if you are gathering bits on them for down the road. A proactive solution they may take is remove the threat, namely you.

I never pay attention to round up or down, though that makes getting the DR7 commlink even more important for me then, making me have a 12 condition monitor in the matrix then

It is that easy to day. Sit outside with a 3G/4G wireless internet stick and a Wi-Fi AP named after something common (Airport, starbucks, whatever) and just log all traffic. You get credit card, facebook logins and stuff like that en masse. It is common today and it is easy today. People "earn" their living with this _today_. Of course plenty will do so in SHadowrun, but that is what GOD is for, they crack down on this.

There has been a few known cases of this kind of on the fly information stealing hacking in tiny Sweden just a year ago. And still most people aren't paranoid at all, they go "wirless bonus on" with everything, their Rating 1 Internet Explorer security and their rating 1-2 passwords reused on all sites... When you think about it is really scary!