So one of my players wants to be a hacker and i don't quite like the hacking system in sr4 and I've heard that the one in sr5 is better. Is that true? If so then are there any major changes in sr5 because we don't want to read a whole new book and if there aren't any we can just buy the book and convert in a fairly short time. If there are many changes could I implement the system into SR4?

I've run a few playtests with the same set-up in SR4 and 5 myself, and honestly, I liked the way 4th handles hacking better. Mechanically, it took roughly the same amount of rolls (more, actually, for 5 since the defender got counter rolls to pretty much everything), and time-wise was about the same. I do like the whole 'once you've admin access, the node is your bitch barring a secspider or an agent' set-up of 4th, myself.

Agreed... I prefer SR4A and their Hacking setup. Only thing I would change is eliminating Extended Rolls from SR4A. I DO like some of SR5's Matrix Setup, but it annoys me enough that I would not play it over SR4A.

Basically, SR5's Matrix system eliminates extended tests, so in any challenging case it operates MUCH faster. It's also much simpler. There are intricacies lost in the simplicity and speed of execution, though.

Alerts will still getcha, sadly!

Providing a counterpoint: I was pleasantly surprised by SR5's hacking rules when I took them out for a test drive.

If you do any computer security in the real world, then SR5's hacking rules require significant suspension of disbelief. However, I appreciated that they were pretty fun and played well with the rigging rules.

Getting rid of the extended tests and de-emphasizing the role of matrix perception in dealing with hidden nodes were the aspects that I felt were most improved in the 4 to 5 transition. The attention spent to ensuring that all the characters had the same picture of the matrix was also useful. Also, marking seemed like a nice mechanic for low level hacking and tracking the privileges you have on a device.

I've only gotten in limited runs with the system, so these opinions might change down the line. But SR5 hacking is worth a look and probably a good fit for lots of groups.

I am reserving judgement, however, the Mark system has some benefits & negatives, like the fact that having 3 marks on a device essentially doubles your attack power against that device, & if you're a strong decker, you can get 3 marks in one shot (only a -10 to your DP).

The one thing I never understood about G.O.D. and the OS score, is when you hit the 40 count and convergence occurs, they Slap you with some damage and dump you, clearing your marks in the process and alert the host.

Why would they not use a link lock in the primary attack alongside the damage to basically hold you there while they try to pummel you senseless?

Since they are alerting the host of your location, just dumping you gives you the opportunity to escape where as LL least improves the chances you will be there for pickup.

Even if you pass out from the damage, the link lock keeps you online and if you are lucky enough to perform a Jack Out action, you still get the dumpshock which happens normally when G.O.D. comes down on you so it's no loss to them.

It just seems like having a cop tell you, 'Yeah we saw the burgler breaking into your house so we tossed him back on the street and just wanted to give you a call that you can find him there if you hurry.'

Why didn't we detain him until you got here at least?

Yeaaah, that's not what we do...Have a good day citizen.

Just seems odd, but then maybe they really are only going through the motions to look like they are on the job to the normal Joe.

Well I've heard (from spoony mostly) that when you have a decker onboard your party is screwed because you and the decker have an hour long session and the other guys can't do $hit because in the matrix everything is happening at the speed of thought. Does SR5 fix the problem and make them 15 minute long sessions?

In SR5, it's supposed to be able to happen via AR overlay for the areas you're hacking through, at the same time as combat occurs and in the same progression. Your decker/TM can be breaking the enemy's IC while his teammates lay suppression fire on the enemy combatants and decker, and taking control of doors, lights, etc., to control the battlefield in real time. Or brick their gear so it's not as sellable after the fight. Or pull out a gun and shoot. All options available in SRRT (Shadowrun-Real-Time).

Our Matrix Session in SR4A were run right alongside the Main Action, in Real Time. On the rare occasion where there was an actual Matrix Run, it happened in Minutes (never more than 10-15, but usually 5-10 Minutes), and we generally had multiple characters involved (not all of us were hackers/technomancers). Even more rare, When we ran Resonance Quests, the whole team participated.

With the removal of Extended rolls in SR5, it should be faster, but there are a lot more rolls now, so I think it is a wash, personally.

Ill stick to sr4 then. also another question what can a logic based character do (except hack ofcourse) ? One of my runners (i have 2 players btw) wants to be a troll with high logic and strength who has a lot of martial arts and is melee. He wants to be a troll because he can have a high body and strength and he needs it because he is playing the role of the "tank". My other pc will be a human face/shaman probably ( he hasn't chosen yet). Other than being a demo man/medic how could I make use of his skills more often?

If he has a decent intuition and high logic, he should have a number of Knowledge skill points. Give a broad selection at 2 points a piece or so. Combined with a high Logic, he probably knows a little bit about everything.

Indeed... Goes the same for Technical Skills. Hardware, Computer, Mechanical Skills are also great additions.

A friend who jumped from SR3 to SR5 would agree that the new matrix system is good. His currently running SR5 game has had their team decker do more real combat than combat decking when fights happen, contrary to the apparent design intent of SR5's matrix & wireless rules. Outside of combat he's done data searches for the team, again something easily and quickly done in SR4 as well.

From personal experience in SR4, I've never had any kind of hacker need to do a matrix run for hours on his own, both as player and as GM. A few minutes, dice rolls, and it was done.

This is... Less than complete. You're not rolling more often, it's just that many rolls are opposed now. In any challenging cases, SR5''s involves fewer rolls than SR4's (one for the hacker and one for the system against at least 3 for the hacker).

With Hackers trying to mark everything so they can function, and opposed rolls for almost everything that occurs in the Matrix, I see there being more rolls, overall. Of course, SR4A had Extended Rolls.

Ideal World, remove Marks and go back to Access rights (Notice how User/Security/Admin lines up pretty well with 1 Mark/2 Marks/3 Marks), and eliminate the Extended Roles in SR4A, and it would be the perfect system. At least I think so, anyways.

Trying to mark everything for no specific reason is like trying to hack everything for no specific reason - you shouldn't frigging do it. This is especially true with the Overwatch Score mechanic. You don't have to mark everything to function, and doing so could impair your function - you mark what you're going after.

User/Security/Admin is a more... Robust system than "requires N marks", but it's also more complex (as there's no longer a pure, simple, essentially algorithmic method of determination). Not a bad way to houserule things, not a bad advanced option for Data Trails, but part of the benefit to the new Matrix rules is that they're very simple; they don't, for example, require the GM to determine what would require user, security, and admin access.

Why did I all of a sudden envision a toddler on a preschool, molded plastic, tricycle?

Agreed... But when you are facing the elite HTR team, and the Hacker now has all those lovely (but stupidly) wireless enabled devices to screw with, well, Marks make him more effective. If he is not going for marks, to boost his effectiveness against the equivalently competent teams, then what is he doing? Well, if it was my hacker, he would be shooting his gun while he laughed at the HTR teams trying to brick his offline gear.

As for the complexity of User/Security/Admin... why is that any different than 1 Mark/2 Marks/3 Marks (which effectively replace User/Security/Admin - which you acknowledged above)? Simple, easy and very robust. If the Design team sets the Mark required (as they do in SR5), why is that any different from them setting the Access Level? Where the complexity comes in is when you are allowed to dynamically reassign the Marks (Access Levels) required to affect things. Structurally, they are no different.

No idea... Why did you?

Well, IF you see the HTR team coming, that's an option in terms of preparing for contact - but seeing as everyone should be doing stuff to prepare for contact (and might be rolling extended tests to do so), that shouldn't be slowing things down (and the SR4 version of that would slow it down a LOT more).

And the entire difference between User/Security/Admin and simple "must have N marks" is that the former involves specifically setting permissions, rather than having it set by the action as written in the book. Otherwise, the only difference is that you just CALL 1/2/3/4 marks User/Security/Admin/Root.

But only in a more granular ruleset. The current ruleset just did the work for you. Nothing stops you from doing the EXACT same assignment of accessibility with Access Levels.

At the base level, 1/2/3/4 Marks is indistinguishable from User/Security/Admin/Root. They are one and the same. WHEN you go to something more granular (like in Unwired, or whatever the 5th Edition Matric Book would be), then that actually takes on more significance, since you can likely reassign Mark requirements/Access Level to specific actions/things (much like you could do as described in Unwired). Until that time, there is functionally no difference.

In 5th Edition, Actions take 0 to 4 Marks, and you must worry about OW scores/Alerts.
In SR4A, Actions require Access Levels from Guest to Admin, and you must worry about alerts.

At their fundamental base, they are functionally identical. Only when you allow the system to become more granular will there be any variation (since one system may set requirements at a different level than another). And honestly, once you allow granularity and dynamic reassignment of Access Levels, then there is no reason not to allow the same dynamic reassignment of Mark Requirements. In the end, they would function identically.

Make any sense?

Yes, I'm SAYING that other than the more granular control assigning the appropriate names to the numbers of Marks is a purely cosmetic thing - so call them whatever you want. The differences are in terms of how you get that - the SR4 system involves an extended test against a threshold as compared to SR5's single opposed test, and in any case worth considering the latter is faster.

I think it was the "the new Matrix rules is that they're very simple" part of RHat's post just above mine back there.

They wouldn't function anywhere near identically, since marks can be acquired dynamically and access levels had to be acquired on entry. If you ever needed to change access levels, you had to log out and fully rehack the system, which required additional extended rolls.

There were other ways of handling that presented in Unwired.

Indeed... I am in favor of eliminating the Extended Test on SR4A, personally. Like I said, I like a few things about the SR5 Matrix, just not all of the them.

Indeed...