1) When you purchase a gun, sometimes it comes with accessorries. What if I want to replace these accessories? Such as the Ares Crusader - comes with a gas vent 2, and I want a GV 4, what happens to the GV 2? Can I keep it as a spare part in my lifestyle gun shop or something? Can I sell it off? Mount it on another gun during chargen?
2) On integral accessories - Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CC says that integral accesories do not modify conceal. So to have an integral laser sight, I have to pay FCU but do not reduce conceal? Do integral accessories take up mounting spaces?
3) What's a gas vent anyway? Is it something fictional or something based in reality? How does it work?
4) Rifles and bigger do not get RC bonuses from stocks?
5) Why can't SM work with scopes? In fact, wouldn't it work better with scopes? You'd see a red crosshair where the gun is pointing, no zeroing required and no SM or Smart goggles needed. Or is this a balance issue?
6) What's the (non-statistical) difference between electronic and optical vision mag? Why does the BBB say one is favoured over the other for mages? Is it purely because of the difference in essence cost?
7) What's the actual magnification for scope ratings? I *think* mag 1 scopes are x3, but what about the others?
8 ) Is it me, or is body armour pretty advanced? If the predator is a heavy pistol and I fire on the average runner, he'd have 4-8 points of ball armour, and my predator doesn't do squat (unless i roll mucho high, or call shot head, etc etc).
9) Do you recommend implementing SOTA, Armour Degradation, Stress or Deadly over damage rules?
10) I've always wondered, if you're loaded on cyber and you go to a shadowclinic and want to install something that would lower your essence to below zero, would the doctor tell you: "You only have 0.61 essence left, this mod is 2.4 essence, and would kill you", or "Your body can't take this much pressure, sorry, no go."
Full Version: More random gun questions
| QUOTE |
| 1) When you purchase a gun, sometimes it comes with accessorries. What if I want to replace these accessories? |
You can do whatever your GM lets you do. I don't recall there being any rules to cover this. Note that some modifications, like gas venting, can't be removed per the customizaiton section in CC.
| QUOTE |
| 2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CC says that integral accesories do not modify conceal. So to have an integral laser sight, I have to pay FCU but do not reduce conceal? Do integral accessories take up mounting spaces? |
If this is true, it's only for custom guns. Regular accessories mounted on the weapon always take mounting space/conceal/weight/etc.
| QUOTE |
| 3) What's a gas vent anyway? Is it something fictional or something based in reality? How does it work? |
Sort of exists, at least. Basicly, you vent the gases up or up and back to help compensate for recoil. The way they work in SR isn't exactly a full realism... someone with more knowledge will fill you in.
| QUOTE |
| 4) Rifles and bigger do not get RC bonuses from stocks? |
Nope. You can take the stock off if you really want to and loose that RC.
| QUOTE |
| 5) Why can't SM work with scopes? In fact, wouldn't it work better with scopes? You'd see a red crosshair where the gun is pointing, no zeroing required and no SM or Smart goggles needed. Or is this a balance issue? |
Yep, game balance. TN2 at all ranges is rather scary (actually, TN 0 at long range with a Smartlink-2 and a rangefinder).
| QUOTE |
| 6) What's the (non-statistical) difference between electronic and optical vision mag? Why does the BBB say one is favoured over the other for mages? Is it purely because of the difference in essence cost? |
Mages can't target spells through anything electronic. Electronic vision mag apparently counts.
| QUOTE |
| 7) What's the actual magnification for scope ratings? I *think* mag 1 scopes are x3, but what about the others? |
No idea. Probably depends on the weapon. A taser would likely have a smaller magnification than a sniper rifle. If you want an estimate, figure out what mag would be needed to make the top end of the highest range it can affect equivalent to the top of short range. Take a weapon with the ranges 0-50/51-100/101-150/151-200. A rating 1 scope would be x2 (100/x=50), rating 2 would be x3 (150/x=50), rating 3 would be x4 (200/x=50).
| QUOTE |
| 8 ) Is it me, or is body armour pretty advanced? If the predator is a heavy pistol and I fire on the average runner, he'd have 4-8 points of ball armour, and my predator doesn't do squat (unless i roll mucho high, or call shot head, etc etc). |
For a glancing hit (what 1 success would represent) yeah, it probably won't do much agaisnt a sam or high body character. You'll still injure a mage. Most of the time ballistic is in the 5-6 range.
| QUOTE |
| 9) Do you recommend implementing SOTA, Armour Degradation, Stress or Deadly over damage rules? |
Never used 'em.
| QUOTE |
| 10) I've always wondered, if you're loaded on cyber and you go to a shadowclinic and want to install something that would lower your essence to below zero, would the doctor tell you: "You only have 0.61 essence left, this mod is 2.4 essence, and would kill you", or "Your body can't take this much pressure, sorry, no go." |
#2 The exact number comes up in the medical scan, or, at least, the doc knows what your relative essence is on some scale.
| QUOTE (FXcalibur) |
| Can I keep it as a spare part in my lifestyle gun shop or something? Can I sell it off? Mount it on another gun during chargen? |
Before someone can give you the actual rules, I'll confuse you a bit with useless and rather faulty RL logic.
Gas Vents are often built into the barrel. In some cases, you shouldn't be capable of doing much anything to them, upgrading or getting rid of them, anything. Pistols with ported barrels are examples of this.
In other cases, it's a system either permanently or otherwise mounted on the barrel end, a muzzle brake. If it's permanently mounted, built in to the barrel, removing or replacing it should take decent tools (respective B/R Shop) and time. If it's not a permanent attachment, you shouldn't need more than a B/R Kit and some time to swap them around -- but you shouldn't be capable of mounting the removed Gas Vent on anything else than a very similar gun, other Light Pistols or Machine Pistols perhaps.
Some explanations of muzzle brakes can be found here, towards the end of the thread. Those and ported barrels cover most of what could be considered Gas Vents. Obviously the SR Gas Vents are quite different, being as large as Underbarrel Grenade Launchers at times...
| QUOTE |
| 4) Rifles and bigger do not get RC bonuses from stocks? |
Nope. I suppose you could think of it like this: Rifles have heftier recoil to begin with, and they are always shot with your shoulder to the stock (except by complete morons). If Rifles, including Assault Rifles, actually did more damage than Pistols, it'd balance out.
| QUOTE |
| Why can't SM work with scopes? |
| QUOTE |
| What's the (non-statistical) difference between electronic and optical vision mag? |
Optical magnification magnifies the image through the use of lenses. Electronic magnification magnifies the image through the use of computers to blow up the image. Using 10x binoculars compared to using your Windows Media Player with Zoom 1000% IRL. In cybereyes, it shouldn't matter because it's payed for in Essence (can't remember the rules, it might be unusable for spell targeting even in cybereyes), but otherwise mages cannot target spells through electronic images. Thus they have to rely on optically magnifying binoculars instead of electronically magnifying, for example, if they plan on frying someone with a Powerbolt at range.
| QUOTE |
| What's the actual magnification for scope ratings? |
There are no canon figures. You can think of them any way you like. For example, you could think of them as 4x, 8x and 12x. Or 5x, 10x and 20x. Or anything. The game designers weren't into that sort of thing.
| QUOTE |
| Is it me, or is body armour pretty advanced? If the predator is a heavy pistol and a fire on the average runner, he'd have 4-8 points of ball armour, and my predator doesn't do squat |
Baaaaaaaaad example. The Heavy Pistols in the game are helluva lot better against body armor than pistols are IRL. A standard flexible kevlar vest without inserts is absolutely guaranteed to stop any non-armor piercing pistol round, except for some extreme oddities like the .454 Casulls and .440 Cor-Bons and whathaveyou. You'd have to empty several mags of ammo at an "Armored Vest with Plates" IRL to get through it with any god damn pistol.
On the other hand, Assault Rifles should penetrate any flexible body armor at short/medium ranges. Yet an "Armored Vest with Plates" should stop anything up to and including armor piercing mid-caliber rifle rounds, such as Sporting Rifle APDS.
I could go on about this in length, and have (several times, just can't find them right now). Suffice it to say, just forget everything you might think you know about penetration and body armor if you plan to use the canon figures. Forget. Either that, or house rule extensively.
| QUOTE |
| Do you recommend implementing SOTA, Armour Degradation, Stress or Deadly over damage rules |
No. Sorta. Hell yes. SOTA might be nice for flavor, and using that is a really personal preference thing. Armor degradation should be present in some way, but limiting it to Medium damage is silly. Deadly Over-Damage is a must, really, if you want believable damage.
Thanks guys. And that rifle round does 25% armour piercing does sound pretty good...but what about APDS rifle rounds? 75%?
For some reason I cannot access http://matrix.dumpshock.com/ right now, but Raygun's site has all those rules in it. Lots of guns, lots of ammo, lots of rules for both and anything that has to do with them.
| QUOTE |
| Baaaaaaaaad example. The Heavy Pistols in the game are helluva lot better against body armor than pistols are IRL. A standard flexible kevlar vest without inserts is absolutely guaranteed to stop any non-armor piercing pistol round, except for some extreme oddities like the .454 Casulls and .440 Cor-Bons and whathaveyou. You'd have to empty several mags of ammo at an "Armored Vest with Plates" IRL to get through it with any god damn pistol. On the other hand, Assault Rifles should penetrate any flexible body armor at short/medium ranges. Yet an "Armored Vest with Plates" should stop anything up to and including armor piercing mid-caliber rifle rounds, such as Sporting Rifle APDS. I could go on about this in length, and have (several times, just can't find them right now). Suffice it to say, just forget everything you might think you know about penetration and body armor if you plan to use the canon figures. Forget. Either that, or house rule extensively. |
Well, that, or accept that the rules are abstract. If a pistol does damage to a guy wearing an Armored Vest with Plates, it didn't necessarily penetrate the armor. More than likely it hit one of those other spots where the vest (or possibly even one of the plates) weren't protecting. Considering that leaves his crotch, legs, arms, and head open, that's not exactly a hard thing to assume.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| accept that the rules are abstract |
That helps, but it's not a perfect explanation. 9M for HPs vs 8M for ARs is indisputably fucked up. Unless you go all the way with the abstraction, which is basically the same as completely forgetting anything you might think you know about firearms and body armor IRL.
I was refering solely to the use of armor, which is fairly consistant in that way. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense why Armored Vest with Plates has the same Ballistic rating as the flimsy material in Form-Fitting Body Armor. The difference is found in the amount of the body each one covers. The Armored Vest may have a "real" Ballistics Rating of something insane like 20, but it only covers a small portion. Form-Fitting on the other hand is pretty weak, but covers almost the entire body.
'Course, that's why the rules for bypassing armor with a Called Shot are broken beyond belief. But that's been said a few times too many already.
'Course, that's why the rules for bypassing armor with a Called Shot are broken beyond belief. But that's been said a few times too many already.
You can't really separate the system used to determine penetration from the system used to determine armor. Not in this case, at least, when the (apparent) problem is the level of effectiveness of certain weapons against certain types of armor.
And yes, that's been said quite a few times.
Bears repeating for all the newcomers, however. You can't just change one thing to make it more realistic without making sure all the other bits match up. If you change armor coverage, you have to change armor ratings and you have to change penetration and maybe even damage.
And yes, that's been said quite a few times.
Bears repeating for all the newcomers, however. You can't just change one thing to make it more realistic without making sure all the other bits match up. If you change armor coverage, you have to change armor ratings and you have to change penetration and maybe even damage.
Trust me, I'm not happy with the way firearms are handled either. But in the grand scheme of things, it works out fairly well all things considered. Especially compared to some of the other major problems in the system.
Sure, a single shot from an assault rifle should be at the very least just as effective as a heavy pistol, but while that isn't the case in Shadowrun, the amount of devestation an AR can do in FA or even BF mode more than makes up for it.
Sure, a single shot from an assault rifle should be at the very least just as effective as a heavy pistol, but while that isn't the case in Shadowrun, the amount of devestation an AR can do in FA or even BF mode more than makes up for it.
| QUOTE |
| 1) When you purchase a gun, sometimes it comes with accessorries. What if I want to replace these accessories? Such as the Ares Crusader - comes with a gas vent 2, and I want a GV 4, what happens to the GV 2? Can I keep it as a spare part in my lifestyle gun shop or something? Can I sell it off? Mount it on another gun during chargen? |
Maybe you just buy another GV2 and add the levels to what already exists to get a total of 4.
Alternatively, check up the cost of GV2, subtract it from the gun, then add the cost of a GV4.
(this isn't in any rules anywhere. It DOES make sense, unless the packages somehow come with a 'discount'. This system can also be used to mod vehicles and stuff like that which comes in a package....useful for those without rigger.
)| QUOTE |
| 5) Why can't SM work with scopes? In fact, wouldn't it work better with scopes? You'd see a red crosshair where the gun is pointing, no zeroing required and no SM or Smart goggles needed. Or is this a balance issue? |
It's more of a balance issue than anything, but here's my take. Smartlink actually calculates the trajectory of your round, whereas the scope doesn't (it's just a vision magnification tool). Use both together, and you'd end up with TWO crosshairs: one from the smartlink, and one from the scope. This potentially can confuse the firer. Note, however, that 'incompatible' does not mean that they can't be mounted on the same gun.
(why would you need a scope anyway? If you brought a link 2, you can get the Rangefinder option.....and you don't really need to magnify your target if the smartlink already did the necessary calculations, right?)
3) Check out Glock's site for information and pictures on their "c" (compensated) line.
9) SOTA, definitely not. Far too bothersome and abstract. Armor deg, maybe if you lighten it up a bit. DOD? Absolutely NECESSARY!
10) The latter would be closer to the truth, I reckon.
9) SOTA, definitely not. Far too bothersome and abstract. Armor deg, maybe if you lighten it up a bit. DOD? Absolutely NECESSARY!
10) The latter would be closer to the truth, I reckon.
You could possibly buy a new barrel with a GV-IV attached (or attach it yourself) and replace the whole barrel. You could keep the old one in-case your new barrel gets damaged, or your GM might allow you to trade it in for the cost of a replacement barrel.
| QUOTE (Kakkaraun) |
| 3) Check out Glock's site for information and pictures on their "c" (compensated) line. |
In case it went unnoticed, I already linked this above.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.