So I got a shiny smartgun and a set of trodes, do I actually need to buy a smartlink?

Trodes give me DNI, which means you do not need an image link for example.

Smartlinks are Vision enhancements.

Discuss.

I'd say yes. The smartgun sends out signals, but the smartlink is what interprets them correctly.

Yes, you would need the smartlink.

As you point out, the trodes bypass the need for an imagelink, so for instance, since all guns provide an ARO displaying ammunition levels and firing mode, you would be able to "see" that information even without the imagelink.

To gain the benefit of the smartgun system, you still need the smartlink component.

Ok, so if I do need to have the smartlink where does it go? As a vision enhancement there is a defined capacity and price, but if there isn't a vision system to plug it into, how does ti work.

Maybe a third fake eyeball will work...

The smartlink is available in Eyeware, with an essence cost. Probably means installation in the visual cortex.

It's also available as a Vision Enhancement without an essence cost. Having Trodes means you get DNI without paying essence so do you still have to pay essence to also get a smartlink?

Vision Enhancements have to be added to gear such as glasses or goggles, with capacity.

So what is the point of Trodes? Even if I have Trodes, I need to pay essence for vision and audio enhancements in order to have them?

p. 222 "On the other hand, if you use AR
with a direct neural interface like trodes or an implant,
you can use all of your senses to view AR without any
extra devices."

Trodes would allow you to interface with the smartlink through DNI. Then you would be able to switch the firing mode, eject the clip, and fire your weapon without having to pull the trigger... all with your mind!

Partly this:




Except all firearms (except throwbacks) have those capabilities. So you can take a gun with no smartlink system and still use DNI to switch modes, etc.

Trodes are primarily for DNI with your commlink and other devices, so you can pick up AROs and/or jump into VR.

If you have Trodes on, you don't need an image link or earbuds for basic sight and sound, but it won't set you up with the other stuff like smartlinks and spatial recognizers and vision magnification -- you still need to get those installed in some device (or into your head).

Yeah, just slower without a smartlink (at least according to most of the book other than the firearms Wireless bonus section).

Trodes basically let you get by without an image link or sound link and also give you a DNI.

You can definitely have a smartlink without paying essence for it (it just isn't as good). Just install the smartlink in goggles/glasses/whatever and then connect it wirelessly or by wire to your smartgun modified weapon. You can also use your DNI to wirelessly change the device settings of your imaging device as a free action, which is nice. Note that this opens up a lot of wireless points that could be hacked.

Pretty much exactly what everyone else has been saying.

With Trodes, it gives you a DNI. This allows you to:

See, hear, and touch AROs without any other piece of equipment.

For example - all firearms display AROs that show ammo levels and firing mode - with the trodes, you will be able to see that information without any other piece of equipment (or ware).

In addition to that, it will allow you to eject a clip or change a firing mode as a Free Action - wirelessly.

With the smartlink installed in some capacity (whether essence or not), it will allow you to do this AND also fire the weapon without pulling the trigger, shoot around corners, increase the Accuracy by 2, AND if you have the wireless on, you also get +1 or +2 dice depending on whether you paid essence for your smartlink or not.

Trodes allow you to direct things by thinking about it (much like modern pilots use meshweave sensors to handle some of their HUD stuff for them), the Trodes will allow you to think about calling your ally, & the call will go through, the the smartlink connects your video device to your gun, the Image Link, puts your tactical HUD in your field of view, it allows you to see any information you need on a visual device that has the Image Link. By connecting your other senses you can hear a readout of your available ammo, hear the wind direction, or see a fake pole with the proper type of wind signal on your glasses.

It is even better than that. It has a DNI, which means you don't need an Image Link, or glasses, or any other piece of equipment that just feeds you raw data. Your Commlink would feed a picture direct to your brain through the DNI and not through an image link. You DO need a Smartlink, or Vision Mag, or other things that manipulate that data, which you would then access through the DNI connection to that piece of equipment.

The descriptions of the smartlink and smartgun both reference to each other in their use, and a smartlink is required to get the bonuses to the dice pool and accuracy. Ejecting a clip and changing fire modes are listed in the wireless bonus, and a DNI is not listed as a requirement for it at all.

It's stupid, but just having a smartgun online means you can eject the magazine or change the firing mode as a free action.

You don't need a DNI to change fire modes or eject a clip as a free action if you have a smartlink and a smargun system.

You do need a DNI to do so if you don't have a smartlink and a smartgun system.

With a smarlink and a smartgun system, you can also fire the gun without pulling the trigger - which you can't do with only a DNI.

If you look at the Changed Linked Device mode and the Eject Smartgun Clip Free Actions, it explicitly states in one and implies in the other that a DNI is required (why this isn't mentioned in the equipment section, I couldn't guess).

The Change Linked Device Free Action states:

That's the explicit one. The implicit one is in the Eject Smartgun Clip action:

While in this case it doesn't explicitly reference a DNI. I would note that the Change Linked Device Free Action uses the terminology "linked" to refer to a connection with a DNI. Additionally, the action refers to "mental command," which I believe is the domain of DNI.

I'll readily admit that the rules aren't clear on that, but I think there's enough evidence to suggest it's the case.

You hit that one right on the head.

"It's stupid, but just having a smartgun online means you can eject the magazine or change the firing mode as a free action."

Maybe its me, but I'm not seeing the problem with that?

If you have a DNI, you can eject the magazine or change the firing mode with ANY gun. The smartlink only allows you to do this with a gun that you have had specifically modified to do so. The DNI also allows you lots of other goodies (seeing/hearing AROs, etc)

The smartgun system/smartlink combo allows you to duplicate some of the effects of the DNI - but you have to pay for the smartlink and you have to pay for the smartgun system itself.

What is the problem? (not being sarcastic - just genuinely asking the question).

The only thing I am really needing out of this is if it seems reasonable to be able to use a smartgun, trodes, and have a smartlink that is not implanted or a vision enhancement work. Of course it will only get the non implant bonus, but it should still work. It just seems a gap that what I think might be a common configuration isn't available in the gear section.

As I understand it, no you cannot.

In order to get the benefits of a smartgun system, you need to have a smartlink, and the only way to get a smartlink is to have it implanted or as a vision enhancement.

When you say Vision Enhancement, are you only referring to implanted vision enhancement? Because you can certainly have a smartgun, trodes, and a pair of glasses with a smartlink installed in it.

@Jack

I believe what he is trying to achieve is the ability to have a smartgun equipped weapon and trodes, and nothing else at all - no smartlink - whether that is implanted in his body or installed in a pair of glasses/goggles/helmet/whatever.

@DireRadiant

If that is not the case, let me know

But again - you need the smartlink.

Yeah, you have to have the smartlink. Even though you have the DNI, the smartlink hardware is what converts all of the environmental and telemetry data the smartgun has gathered and turns it into a targeting reticle in your field of vision.

A technomancer in SR4 (per Unwired) could thread a Smartgun form (only needing a single hit) to use with a Smartgun equipped gun and nothing else. With the skinlink echo you did not even need the wireless functionality enabled.

And for 2 karma could make it a permanently active complex form (so you never suffered the -2 DP to everything else you did).

I'm not holding my breath to see this reappear in an SR5 Matrix splat book.

Oh, don't be too sure. It's just that the Fading Value will be L + 18 or so.

Feels like wishful thinking it would be that low.

I agree the smartlink is needed. I am just wondering if it seems reasonable to have it as not a vision enhancement and not as an Implant, but simply with the Trodes.

So, Naked PC with Smartgun, Trodes, and Smartlink.

I think its reasonable situation for the fact that, to me at least, it seems to be more of a situation where, the smartlink can only connect to something that has another smartlink, but it can attach to ANYTHING that has another smartlink option & can show you the information you need. For instance, if you were able to load a smartgun program onto your commlink, the gun could connect to your commlink then through the Trodes, put the information either, in your natural vision, or you can hear something from the commlink about the gun.

Then what is the Smartlink installed in?

To be clear, the rules DO NOT support this - Smartlink is available in only two forms: as a piece of cyberware, or as an enhancement added to a vision device such as glasses or a scope. There is no other means to have a Smartlink in the rules.

I understand, I never said my suggestion was Raw, but it could make sense, at least to me, that if a compatible program were installed on a commlink & a set of trodes connected, that it would work similar to being installed as cyberware or such, as the gun sends the signal to the smartlink program, then that information is transferred through the Trodes to the brain, where you can see/hear some form of the information. I am simply saying what makes sense, not what the rules say. & if it makes sense, I see it as a reasonable house rule.

Whatever a smartlink is and however it works, it can't really be said to just be software any more than thermographic vision can.

then perhaps something can be installed in a commlink, it obviously is a pretty simple plug & play option, perhaps a commlink option

Programs are described as files. Sounds simple, like a plug-and-play, and they're ridiculously cheap.

You can only run them on cyberdecks or RCCs. A commlink, no matter how powerful you might think it's processing power is (like the Fairlight Caliban at DR 7 & ¥8,000) cannot run one, where even the crappiest of cyberdecks (the Erika MCD-1 at DR 1 & ¥49,500) can run one.

Are we actually sure that they cannot run ANY programs? I recall a passage that specifies that commlinks cannot run Hacking programs, & while they do not specifically have a number of programs they could run, are we 100% certain that commlinks will NEVER be able to run programs? Because in theory, that means a non-decker has literally no use for the computer skill, no one but a Decker could Edit files or the like yes? namely...why have "Common Use Programs, yet state Commlinks cannot run Hacking Programs?

Edit: after re-reading the common programs, I think Cyberdeck's will be much more common a device than many of us think they are, if commlink's cannot handle any sort of program then most business professionals or even basic matrix designer's would use Deck's. I am beginning to think they will be as common as a Tablet in our world.

You may want to read what programs actually do... And yes, we do know for certain that commlinks cannot run cyberprograms.

I made an Edit, & as I said, I think Commlinks are on their way out.

The thing to keep in mind is that for most use, the commlink does just fine - you can get a higher limit if you run Edit, but most workers aren't going to be running up against the limit of a good commlink anyways.

Cyberdecks are not common - they are the tools of a hacker or spider, and they are not available to the general public legally.

The Commlink is the way that the everyman interacts with the Matrix - consider that a mere 5,000 gets you a commlink with a Rating 6 Firewall and Data Processing. To get the equivalent with a Cyberdeck (even running Edit and Encryption) You need to have a Microtronica Azteca 200 (which has an Attribute Array of 5/4/3/2 - so you assign the 5 to Firewall and the 4 to the Data Processing - and that costs you 110,000 - which is Twenty Two TIMES as expensive.

The cyberdeck is so much more expensive because it allows you the Attack and Sleaze attributes - which the vast majority of the population don't use (along with some other goodies).

It does seem possible that the high end of legitimate use could run through a deck.

"It does seem possible that the high end of legitimate use could run through a deck."

I can see that - an elite few of the most talented programmers in the world using the advanced processing power of a deck to do their work.

Personally I just disagree with Dolanar's statement:

"I think Cyberdeck's will be much more common a device than many of us think they are, if commlink's cannot handle any sort of program then most business professionals or even basic matrix designer's would use Deck's. I am beginning to think they will be as common as a Tablet in our world."

They are just WAY too expensive to be used in that fashion by 99% of the population.

Can I see some rich kid getting his dad to pull strings and get a license for him to carry a half a million Cyber 5? Yeah, I can buy that - but the middle class kid who buys the Fairlight Caliban for 7,000 is going have almost the same processing power for all of the applications that he is likely to be using.

For corporate use, the cheapest commlink they can provide their employees with is 100 - the cheapest deck is 50,000 - considering what most people require as far as computer processing power, they are going to choose the former (probably spending a little more than that - maybe get a rating 3 for 1,000).

For cyberdecks, IMHO - they are the tools of deckers, spiders, the elite programmers and the bored and rich.

However, to each his own - and certainly all tables are different

Certainly wouldn't expect them to be common, but I could certainly see them being used for things like high-end graphics work (including trid and simsense editing), among a number of other tasks.

"Certainly wouldn't expect them to be common, but I could certainly see them being used for things like high-end graphics work (including trid and simsense editing), among a number of other tasks."

I guess what we need is some sort of idea of what "Device Rating 6" means in real world terms.

For instance, using the example you point out - what device rating would the people who produced the 2075 trid equivalent of Avatar or Pacific Rim use?

Can that be done on a device rating of 2? 4? 6? Higher?

What does the average wageslave use in his normal routine? If he uses a device rating of 1, then maybe the 6 is high enough for really high end tasks.

It isn't super important information, but it would help flesh out the game world.

That's actually a problematic line of reasoning that doesn't terminate anywhere useful - DR6 for a deck means something very different than DR6 for a commlink.

Pg. 234 has examples, but it has to be hilariously wrong. Unless my 5,000 Transys Avalon is on par with "billion-nuyen experimental devices, space craft"

To me, that would smack of poor game design like the old D&D Level, Level, Level thing. At least in that case most of the "levels" were generally self-contained. I could tell the difference between a character level and a dungeon level. But if I have Devices that have Ratings where the same Rating means different things depending on the Device? I find that problematic.

Regardless, a deck is flat out exponentially more powerful than a commlink of equivalent device rating.

"That's actually a problematic line of reasoning that doesn't terminate anywhere useful - DR6 for a deck means something very different than DR6 for a commlink."

I could have worded that better.

The fact that a Rating 6 Commlink gives me a 6 Data Processing. How does that impact me as a person living in the SR Universe?

Is that sufficient for daily tasks? Is it sufficient for people who do moderate to difficult "computer" work? Is it sufficient for high end work?

What does having a 3 Data Processing mean?

If you break it out like that, then you are using terms that are equivalent to both commlinks and decks.

Data Processing is pretty much used as your limit for certain Matrix actions (none of which generate OS), and used for your Initiative while in VR (hot or cold).

Other than that, nothing as far as I know off hand.