Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: The Astral Recon Problem [4e]
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
JetBlack
I'm a GM prepping a 4e campaign. I ran a ton of 1e back in the 90s, but have been away since then, so I know the broad outlines of the world but I'm still getting up to speed on the specifics. With that in mind, I wonder if anything has been done about a problem that used to drive me to distraction: astral recon.

Basically, whenever possible before going into a potentially dangerous situation like a meet, the team mage would simply project and scope the whole place out. Not every opposition force has mages or spirits for "air cover", and those that don't pretty much get their whole setup blown. Numbers, weapons, physical layout, all are ease to suss out when you're a physically invulnerable ghost and the opposition can't even see you let alone stop you.

Now obviously this does not apply to secure areas, but astral security is expensive and complicated, leaving most of the world as a mage's playground.

Am I missing something? Is there a reason why this trick would not work this well? All I could think to do would be to make astral space more dangerous, with rogue spirits and the like looking to take a bite out of an unwary astral voyager.

I would value any guidance on this issue. If possible, please be kind enough to include citations to help me find the rules and info I may be missing. Many thanks in advance.

-Jet
RHat
Not every place has a mage on site, but they might have one mage who secures several sites. That means things like wards, watchers, and potentially bound spirits. There's also stuff like Awakened Ivy and suck that creates a barrier. And glomoss so that you know some sort of magical something came by, so go on high alert. Plus, knowing about stuff like weapons would probably be beyond what you can get from the astral - objects like that would be indistinct astrally. Physical layout won't automatically translate too well from astral navigation (and even if it did, the mage would have to go purely from memory). And for that matter, how easy would it be to distinguish multiple auras precisely when they're in close proximity to each other?

In some ways, a hacker's actually much better for that sort of scouting, since he can hack into the ubiquitous cameras and such.
Medicineman
what about a meeting in the Matrix
what about Dual Critters that can spot the projecting mage,
what about a ward or a meeting in a Church (Backgroundcount)
what about a meeting in an Airport Lounge (Airport Security ) ?
What about a Run in the Sewers where a projecting Mage could encounter Ghouls or other Dual Critter ?

What about a Dance ?
Medicineman
Voran
In the general sense, Astral Recon isn't foolproof. Astral defenses 'on the cheap' would be taking advantage of environment. If you want, go populated area, where the sheer crush of living auras and stuff can make things difficult to pinpoint. Also possibility of secondary astral defenses due to other peoples resources. High priced neighborhood can mean someone else's astral security might be there. Flipside, on the barrens side, the background count and sheer craziness of stuff around can make astral recon via ghostform, less than pleasant.

Also astral project requires the body to remain in the same location, or the mage has to look for it. So no, "I'll do astral recon while we drive to the meet" because they can't easily find their moving body, they'd have to guess where the car is when they try to return, or hope its gotten to the designated stop point. So if they are doing 'quick' recon, that means the team is already on site and the magetype is leaving their body in the car, or in an alley or something. Potentially unsafe, and/or requires pullaway resources from the team to protect their vacant body.

Also recall, when projecting, you are not a predator drone with clearsight. You have movement speed restrictions if 'looking for things', and since not everything has an aura, most of stuff is shadows, its not clear. You can probably recognize auras of people you've already met, and can pick out auras of other people/living things in the area, and even their moods, but that doesn't always mean the guy with the hostile aura in the side alley is an enemy of yours. maybe he's a drug dealer having a bad night, and the meet just happens near him.
kzt
For example, a gun, even in plain sight, isn't going to be obviously recognizable as a weapon unless it has some sort of emotional link. If it's just a tool to the person carrying it it will be difficult to distinguish from their comlink or their wallet. A concealed weapon is going to be pretty much totally invisible on the astral unless it has such an emotional signal that you can't really hide it.
Bearclaw
I believe the OP may have explained why they are hiring shadowrunners. Magic and hacking are rare talents, especially at the level most shadowrunners have them. Very few systems can protect from a good mage or a good hacker. That's why the PC's are the hero's of the story. They're BA!
Sendaz
Suggest you look in pgs 126 & 127 of Street Magic and pgs 64 & 65 for some items that may be of use limiting the mage's field of play.

Specifically bio-fiber set into the walls make effective astral barriers, as can Awakened Ivy which can block while the nastier version of Guardian Vines can actually snare an astral target. The really Nasty Black version of this can drain the astral entity of Force/Magic.

Have security wear Glo wands so if he strays too close they warn them of astral intrusion and can let the magic support know to investigate.
RHat
Oh, and the other thing to consider that is a serious risk for projecting mages: You've left your body, and other things want to take it. Shedim and various possession spirits might decide to take up residence before the mage gets back, leaving him forced to attempt to evict them in (relatively) short order before his projecting time runs out and it's no more mage.
Epicedion
This crosses all editions, because a solid physical location with no astral defenses is like an invitation to enemy magicians no matter what ruleset you use.

The biggest watchword is deterrence. You can set up all the wards and barriers you want, you can cover facilities in astrally impenetrable earth and ivy barriers, but all that will do will convince magicians to look for clever exploits and security holes.

One of the biggest ways I've found to deter the magician from astrally running amok throughout a target site is by adding a simple risk. If you throw one or two moderately powerful spirits onto a site for the sole purpose of astral deterrence -- that is, they only exist to target astral magicians who get too close, and never actually manifest to attack/defend anything on the physical -- you'll find that magicians will make a simple risk assessment and decide whether lots of scouting is worth it.

Magicians don't like to tangle with spirits solely on the astral, because it's dangerous. They're limited in the spells they can use, and getting tangled up in an astral boxing match can be a short ride to severe injury or death. Spirits can also call in their summoner as reinforcement nearly instantly, making any potential astral encounter a dogpile, and the shadowrunner likely won't have any astral backup standing by. Better to restrict those encounters to the physical, where their entire team can focus on bringing down the target.

Further, give the impression that getting astrally discovered and attacked is only a matter of time, much like the decker/hacker reality of eventually getting uncovered by the system and its IC -- that'll get your magicians in the mindset of forming a set of goals and trying to accomplish what they can before they have to bug out.
Sendaz
QUOTE (RHat @ Sep 16 2013, 06:53 PM) *
Oh, and the other thing to consider that is a serious risk for projecting mages: You've left your body, and other things want to take it. Shedim and various possession spirits might decide to take up residence before the mage gets back, leaving him forced to attempt to evict them in (relatively) short order before his projecting time runs out and it's no more mage.

This. So you should have one person do overwatch on the projecting mage with a taser, having a password that they have to say when they come back.

Failure to give the right countersign means you may have an unwanted guest and you taze them senseless and contain them until the real mage gets back.

Unless of course a soul sucking Shedim is an improvement over the last mage. wink.gif

Just saying....
Nath
Regarding building layout, remember you cannot take note or make measurement while astrally projecting. It's not that easy to get the layout right on first visit and remember the setup of every room when you're basically moving at 100 kilometers per hour and barely notice when you go through a wall. So you should at least require the mage to spend several hours studying the place.

Then, every time you move through someone (which may happen quite often when you goes back and forth through walls at such speed), he gets a Perception+Intuition roll with a threshold of 4 to sense it. Security guards, ex-military and the likes may be trained to recognize it, and raise the alert level accordingly in case the visit gets a physical follow-up. If they belong to a large organization, they may not have permanent astral defense on-site, but they may easily receive temporary astral reinforcement. Considering how fast projecting mages and spirits move, it can be as simple as a phone call, and quite cheap, to get someone to come from as far as New York or China to Seattle and take a look.
Voran
Astral Assensing takes time, an 'observe in detail' action, and unless you manifest, you have no way to share information you gather until you return to your meat suit. Likewise you can't really tell if that's a drone or a garbage can or rubble. You can see there are 6 people in the general area, plus another 2 guys here, 3 guys over there, but don't know if they're all connected or not. As pure projection, isn't also that you can't use your 'real senses'? so you can invisible recon, but you can't hear what the guys are saying, or identify features unless you're familiar with their astral stuff.

I find Astral Perception to be more useful, slightly distracting but you get the astral overlay on your natural senses.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Voran @ Sep 16 2013, 05:25 PM) *
Astral Assensing takes time, an 'observe in detail' action, and unless you manifest, you have no way to share information you gather until you return to your meat suit. Likewise you can't really tell if that's a drone or a garbage can or rubble. You can see there are 6 people in the general area, plus another 2 guys here, 3 guys over there, but don't know if they're all connected or not. As pure projection, isn't also that you can't use your 'real senses'? so you can invisible recon, but you can't hear what the guys are saying, or identify features unless you're familiar with their astral stuff.

I find Astral Perception to be more useful, slightly distracting but you get the astral overlay on your natural senses.


Agreed... I use Astral Perception FAR more than I use Astral Projection.
Slithery D
I think almost every facility worth minimally guarding has a weak ward up and will get a call/alert within a minute if your astrally projecting mage breaches it.

All you need is three magicians of unexceptional strength cranking out group wards on a mass basis for modest fees that add up to a decent income. You bust the ward, all three are alerted (woken up, if necessary), and reach for their commlink to input the warning code for the ward they felt go off.

Their company (or security department if they're in house for a large corp) server bounces the message to the facility, and the mundane guards know something is happening and go on alert, lock down stuff to make physical intrusion harder, and call in the intrusion to Lone Star/Knight Errant, who if it's a quiet night send out a pair of astral mages with a couple of spirits to buzz around the block looking for any astral oddities or suspicious auras climbing fences or posting up defensively in alley ways at 0300 hours. Figure it takes them a couple of minutes to arrive, depending.

That's the cheapest version. The more expensive version gets you a quick response from the astral security company itself. No rolling the dice on KE/LS response, and it's faster.
Dolanar
I personally take Astral Perception on every Adept I create, its too worthwhile not to take it, being able to spot different things on the Astral that may mean you harm.
toturi
QUOTE (Slithery D @ Sep 17 2013, 10:05 AM) *
I think almost every facility worth minimally guarding has a weak ward up and will get a call/alert within a minute if your astrally projecting mage breaches it.

All you need is three magicians of unexceptional strength cranking out group wards on a mass basis for modest fees that add up to a decent income. You bust the ward, all three are alerted (woken up, if necessary), and reach for their commlink to input the warning code for the ward they felt go off.

Their company (or security department if they're in house for a large corp) server bounces the message to the facility, and the mundane guards know something is happening and go on alert, lock down stuff to make physical intrusion harder, and call in the intrusion to Lone Star/Knight Errant, who if it's a quiet night send out a pair of astral mages with a couple of spirits to buzz around the block looking for any astral oddities or suspicious auras climbing fences or posting up defensively in alley ways at 0300 hours. Figure it takes them a couple of minutes to arrive, depending.

That's the cheapest version. The more expensive version gets you a quick response from the astral security company itself. No rolling the dice on KE/LS response, and it's faster.

This is not a good setup. It is only cheap in terms of initial setup costs, but maintanance will kill you. How weak is a weak ward? I would say that anything less than 3 is simply a drain on resources, unless it is meant as a short term trip wire alert. Why? Background Count. Many things in the 6th world cause BC. Storms can cause BC.

Furthermore IIRC by RAW, the mage is not alerted when the ward goes down per se, he is alerted when a specific list of things happen to the ward and again IIRC, BC is not one of those circumstances.
toturi
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Sep 17 2013, 10:18 AM) *
I personally take Astral Perception on every Adept I create, its too worthwhile not to take it, being able to spot different things on the Astral that may mean you harm.

No, please no. I only take Astral Perception only if I have Astral Combat and a Weapon Focus. Going on the astral means the character is dual natured and vulnerable to an Astral Fucking-over. IIRC no Astral Combat means no default to Astral Combat means the same thing that happens to an Uncouth character in a social situation happens when you activate your Astral Perception will happen to you when you spot the different things on the astral that may mean you harm. In fact that's worse because instead of the Astral asshole materialising to do you harm, you have gone to them and you are totally defenseless so to speak (if you have no Astral Combat skill).

Magesight eyedrops are expensive, they have very limited range, but if you have no Astral Combat, they are a good enough substitute.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (JetBlack @ Sep 16 2013, 01:58 PM) *
Basically, whenever possible before going into a potentially dangerous situation like a meet, the team mage would simply project and scope the whole place out. Not every opposition force has mages or spirits for "air cover", and those that don't pretty much get their whole setup blown. Numbers, weapons, physical layout, all are ease to suss out when you're a physically invulnerable ghost and the opposition can't even see you let alone stop you.


Check out the assensing table and see what details can be seen. Otherwise it's gray lackluster shadows.

Now the mage can still see empty rooms, guard patterns, etc...

But they can't tell that the floor is really a thin layer of C4, or the air is full of Seven-7, or that the place is criss-crossed with military lasers (though they might spot the sharks...)

The limitations of assensing are know, as well as the advantages, and defenses take them into account.
Voran
Part of the thing though is they can't readily tell who the guards are, unless its easier through process of elimination. Scouting a warehouse during off-hours, the guys clustered and the guys walking around are probably guards. During the daytime though, with people going all over the place, worker? guard? who can tell. Maybe if you get good hits and spot some cyber, but otherwise you're looking at blobs moving around and making guesses.
FuelDrop
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Sep 17 2013, 10:48 AM) *
But they can't tell that the floor is really a thin layer of C4, or the air is full of Seven-7, or that the place is criss-crossed with military lasers (though they might spot the sharks...)

I don't think that James Bond can astrally project.
Shemhazai
I would say that astral defense is not so expensive.

I would also think that getting the general layout of a place is quite easy, but a memory test might be required to remember everything if the place your scouting is very large or has an intricate floor plan.

There is always risk of detection. Even if you think that the place you are infiltrating would never in a million years have astral defenses set up, you might be in for a surprise and then your whole plan is blown.

What if you happen to be spotted going in by the awakened division of Lone Star or Knight Errant? Then something happens there that night to get their attention. Would they recognize your aura if they saw it again?
Chinane
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 17 2013, 03:29 AM) *
No, please no. I only take Astral Perception only if I have Astral Combat and a Weapon Focus. Going on the astral means the character is dual natured and vulnerable to an Astral Fucking-over. IIRC no Astral Combat means no default to Astral Combat means the same thing that happens to an Uncouth character in a social situation happens when you activate your Astral Perception will happen to you when you spot the different things on the astral that may mean you harm. In fact that's worse because instead of the Astral asshole materialising to do you harm, you have gone to them and you are totally defenseless so to speak (if you have no Astral Combat skill).


You're only dual natured while astrally perceiving and t's a free action to turn it off.
If you don't have the skills, simply turn it off again instead of staying exposed.


QUOTE
Magesight eyedrops are expensive, they have very limited range, but if you have no Astral Combat, they are a good enough substitute.


Firstly, not everyone uses all the books, even less the more exotic ones.
Secondly, temporary astral perception does not allow you to skill assensing - which features quite prominantly among my reasons to buy astral perception in the first place.
Thirdly, can you turn off the astral perception effect of those eye drops (I don't have spy games here right now)? Otherwise the astral combat risc you listed above DOES apply fully, but the simple solution of dropping astral perception is unavailable.
Chinane
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Sep 17 2013, 10:26 AM) *
Would they recognize your aura if they saw it again?


I'd say it would require assensing, not just seeing, but that would probably be standard procedure anyway.
toturi
QUOTE (Chinane @ Sep 17 2013, 05:38 PM) *
You're only dual natured while astrally perceiving and t's a free action to turn it off.
If you don't have the skills, simply turn it off again instead of staying exposed.

Firstly, not everyone uses all the books, even less the more exotic ones.
Secondly, temporary astral perception does not allow you to skill assensing - which features quite prominantly among my reasons to buy astral perception in the first place.
Thirdly, can you turn off the astral perception effect of those eye drops (I don't have spy games here right now)? Otherwise the astral combat risc you listed above DOES apply fully, but the simple solution of dropping astral perception is unavailable.

Is it really a free action to turn it off? SR4A states that it is a Simple Action to "shift perception". So unless you do the astral equivalent of peeking (shifting Astral Perception on and immediately turn it off again), you will be quite vulnerable if you do not have Astral Combat skill; of course, if your GM has house rules, then it is a different matter.

And Magesight eyedrops do not give you Astral Perception, it allows you sense the astrally active with normal mundane Perception. So it is not "temporary Astral Perception" and the astral combat risk does not apply.
Chinane
QUOTE (toturi @ Sep 17 2013, 03:01 PM) *
Is it really a free action to turn it off? SR4A states that it is a Simple Action to "shift perception". So unless you do the astral equivalent of peeking (shifting Astral Perception on and immediately turn it off again), you will be quite vulnerable if you do not have Astral Combat skill; of course, if your GM has house rules, then it is a different matter.


I'd consider it sensible to shift to astral on your FIRST simple action, to keep the option to shift right back if there are glaring dangers, at least wink.gif.

QUOTE
And Magesight eyedrops do not give you Astral Perception, it allows you sense the astrally active with normal mundane Perception. So it is not "temporary Astral Perception" and the astral combat risk does not apply.


So not the same thing as astral perception at all. Why did you even bring it up then? Doesn't even come close to being a substitute.
toturi
QUOTE (Chinane @ Sep 17 2013, 10:11 PM) *
I'd consider it sensible to shift to astral on your FIRST simple action, to keep the option to shift right back if there are glaring dangers, at least wink.gif.

So not the same thing as astral perception at all. Why did you even bring it up then? Doesn't even come close to being a substitute.

Glaring dangers, perhaps so. Not if the danger was more subtle.

I bring it up as I thought it was a reasonable though limited substitute for astral perception; to me, it does come closest to being a substitute.
Shemhazai
I'm fairly certain that these magesight eyedrops would allow your eyes to get poked from astral space like the Three Stooges.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Sep 17 2013, 11:07 AM) *
I'm fairly certain that these magesight eyedrops would allow your eyes to get poked from astral space like the Three Stooges.


Entertaining Image there Shemhazai... eek.gif cool.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012