So I was reading up the rules on the matrix for riggers, and I noticed that Riggers now use Rigger Command Console. Does this prevent Technomancers from directly jumping into drones, or can a technomancer use it in tandem?

I'm asking this because Technomancers cannot use a Cyberdeck at the same time due to being only able to use one persona at a time, but I wondered if that limitation extended to the RCC as well.

Technomancers can't jump into drones with their Living Persona without Submerging and taking the Mind Over Machine echo (pg 258). Many folks fond of the Dronomancer template are understandably bitter about this.

Can you submerge at chargen?

While there isn't anything specific in the SR5 book saying you can't, Bull has told us that Submerging or Initiating at chargen isn't legal for Shadowrun Missions. Personally, I'd ask your GM. I know I'd allow it at my table if I were running.

Well, a TM can buy and use an RCC, if that is what you are interested in, but to use the Living Persona and your Matrix Attributes you have to step out of it.

We have a TM with Ressources A or B (I don't recall) and TM on priority C and he functions as a Rigger for the group (the difference is just 4 attribute points, depending on how you build). He can use the RCC to slave the other commlinks protecting them from Hackers with Firewall 8. He functions as a Rigger normally, but he can also work with sprites. His favourites are machine sprites with Diagnostics (I don't dare to ask for a clarification whether this is eligible for normal drone or vehicle operations).

EDIT: The paragraph below the heavily influenced by the house ruling we made. I keep it in to the post, so the answer from SD is still valid.

Originally, he meant to get the Mind over Machine echo ASAP, but a Rating 1 Rig? Rating 3 max? Simply not worthwhile, when you have a Rating 5 at home and so many things depend on Rating. Right now we are discussing whether Overclocking is eligible for use with the RCC, because none of the other echoes make sense.

You're confused about...something. Mind over Machine simulates the Control Rig cyberwear gear. They have identical effects and both max out at Rating 3. So you definitely don't have a rating 5 "at home," although someone else might have it in his head.

If you play a Technomancer rigger without Mind over Machine you're greatly inferior to a jumped in rigger with a Control Rig for controlling a single vehicle, but maybe the RCC plus sprites makes you a better drone general.

Just to explain. We jumped in playing without anyone reading the rules thoroughly. We decided to stick with some of the misunderstandings, if they influenced chargen decisions. I now recall this was one of those examples. Mea culpa. Illegal house rule advice.

But still, the char is a lot of fun and effective, and should be tranferable. With high Ressource you could consider the implant or stick with the drone commanding thing until you get your submersions.

Lets say my TM summon a sprite of the machine.

He then says to the sprite to take control over a drone.

The drone is armed with a weapon and the targeting auto soft is installed on the drone.

Can my TM tell the sprite to move the drone and tell it to shoot targets.
When this is happening can my TM see what the sprite see though the drone with the link that sprite and TM have

Which you can't. No really, Machine Sprites have no way of actually controlling a drone (other than Control Device, which everybody can) and it has been that way since 2005.

In SR5, he's asking it to do something it cannot do.

Actually, SR4 also was very much unclear on what sprites might do with their Autosoft power. 5th "solved" that by excising anything Machine Sprites might do with drones, hooray

It was unclear precisely how it was to be treated, but it was clear RAI that Machine Sprites should be controlling drones.

Indeed... If a Machine Sprite is incapable of interfacing with Devices (Drones Included) what is their actual purpose?

Using Diagnostics and Stability to improve the performance of a device being used by a metahuman?

So, in other words, something so hilariously far from worth it it doesn't bear mentioning? For something that's just as dangerous to use as a spirit, only getting a few bonus dice is fragging stupid.

The dice are 'meh'. Automatically negating glitches, the result of Gremlins and Accident and downgrading critical glitches to glitches is pretty sweet if you happen to be driving the fan full of shadowrunners.

It's laughably far from worth it - and actually, Stability is basically an inferior Guard, and Gremlins is an inferior Accident.

Sprites need a massive buff before they can be considered worth it.

There's one major difference. Guard uses a service every time it negates something. Stability doesn't. That Stability only works on one device at a time rather than a group tends not to matter if you're using it on the right device.

But I will agree that sprites do need a lot of work to not suck, since using a Machine Sprite to boost a getaway vehicle driven by a jacked in rigger is the only thing they seem to be good at.

Personally, I'm working on some technomancer houserules that involve significant modification to sprites - use Living Persona attribute equivalencies to determine Mental Attributes (so, for example, Data Sprites would have Level+4 Logic, and be the most useful by far for things like Data Searches), the addition of optional skills and powers (allowing, for example, a Courier sprite to make good on their supposed ability to track by taking the Track skill, letting them track people through the Matrix and the meat effectively)... Of course, there'd also be elements involved vis a vis having technomancers choose between hacking or rigging, or being able to split between with effort (such as taking the rigging option and using Infusion of Attack/Sleaze when you need to), and Complex Forms that have usefulness outside of the Matrix (though that would likely be exclusive to applying to the technomancer directly).

Another point worth emphasizing: Sprites have no mental attributes, and most tests are attribute + skill. So technically, a Machine Sprite can't even do Control Device...

Boring...

It could be stated a little clearer, but it's obvious that Sprites must have Mental Attributes. It's explicitly stated that Sprites have a Device Rating equal to their Level. (pg. 254.) One of the tasks allowed for a Compiled Sprite is a Combat Turn's worth of Matrix Actions. Matrix Actions all require a Mental Attribute. And the rule under Matrix Actions (pg 237) is "If
a device is completely unattended, the Device Rating stands in for any Mental attributes an icon needs but doesn’t have."

Now Sprites are not Devices, per se, but I'd say the principle applies. Especially as their closest equivalent, Agents, use "their rating (up to 6) for attributes." (pg. 246).

Unfortunately, reading the whole paragraph makes it very much clear that those are the rules "When a defense test calls for a Mental attribute". While I agree that by analogy this should applies to sprites, it only covers defending against attacks but not actively attacking (or hacking, editing,...) anything.

Rule of thumb, you are reading SRV rules correctly if TMs get Vucked.

I'll also mention that the example shows the the example on pg. 254 has the L3 sprite doing Matrix Perception with six dice (2x Level.) Going further down the example you see that the Sprite's skill is equal to its Level. Given that Matrix Perception is Computer (already established as being at Level) + Intuition, well, seems plain that Intuition is also at Level.

TMs are one of the archetypes that got shafted by the conversion from 4A to 5, which I suspect has to do with decker fanboys writing the matrix rules and making sure that deckers rule. TMs now play second fiddle to deckers. As a side effect, they can't rig effectively at chargen.

If you plan on playing a Decker TM, I suggest saving over 7 Karma from Chargen, starting play with the drones you want and the cheapest RCC available. After 1-2 runs, you should have the necessary Karma to submerge and can actually play your chosen concept.

Yes, because a decker can totally afford a Control Rig no problem.

Not really a problem at all... *shrug*

Several examples describe how things should be, not how they are by RAW. Other examples would be the Compiling example ignoring Limit=Level, or the example for armor stacking where the gives its full armor bonus but also encumbrance...

Matter of fact, they can. Affording a Deck, Control Rig, RCC, and Drones can be problematic if you insist on getting the best of everything, but sacrificing a small bit decking ability to mix in decent rigging ability is easy. Why should that option not exist for technomancers? Why should they not have the option of being top-flight hackers, top-flight riggers, or mixing the two while being less able at both?

Then the techno should likewise buy himself a control rig and take the Resonance hit. Trade power for utility.

Bullshit, and you know it. In your model, the decker spends one priority, while the technomancer must spend one and burn another. That's not even getting into how ridiculously far off the mark, thematically, that is from a dronomancer - the basic argument here is that the supposed reasons for killing the dronomancer concept are utter crap.

Ah, dronomancers are thematic. Thanks again, SR4.

You think they shouldn't exist?

I get what you're trying to go for, but given the meaning of the term "thematic" it doesn't work. At all.

Not as an archetype. Technomancer-plus-rigger is fine for a character concept, but that doesn't mean it should be easy to do out of the gate.

What about Dronomancers that are "Technomancer-as-Riggers-that-sacrifice-part-of-their-hacking-ability"? I.e. the Resonance equivalent of a Rigger as opposed to a Hacker.

"Rigger" is its own archetype again, much like "Decker" or "Street Samurai" or "Hermetic Mage." SR4 took hacking away from Deckers, and Rigging away from Riggers by making their niche abilities more or less available to anyone who put in a minor resource and skill investment -- though hacking was by far the most egregious shift.

The problem with Technomancers in general is that they didn't get a well-developed niche, and instead got Matrix-y sort-of magic, sort-of hacking, and a cheap path to sort-of rigging (what with the 13 Karma 0 Nuyen 0 Essence investment in a Rating 1 Control Rig). It's part of the reason I took the trouble in another post to suggest that Technomancers should be different rather than a sort-of hodgepodge of things. If Technos didn't lose Essence for Cyberware (and were in fact forced to take some implants, like the datajack, to work) this would be different.

A fair play would be to make the Dronomancer its own thing that gets Control Rig emulation as part of its priority -- sort of an Aspected Technomancer. Decking and Rigging aren't on the same playing field, so granting Technos simple access to both isn't a great use of the system.

The starting point of the argument, here, is "Technomancer-IS-Rigger", not "Technomancer-Plus-Rigger" - surely you can see the difference?

Hence my last statement about an aspected technorigger.

Right, combine that with some replacement for an RCC (presumably through sprites), take away Attack and Sleaze attributes (perhaps basing some of the rigging stuff off of Charisma and Intuition, keeping those relevant - but perhaps not, given the new need for Reaction), and we'd be getting somewhere. Then add a way to, for a sufficient cost, add in the other capability, and things would be one hell of a lot closer to right.