The Ares Viper has always been sold as an assassin's weapon. It's silent, it's deadly, and it can lay out an impressive number of shots very quickly. However, in 5th edition they seem to have moved away from that somewhat.

On the heavy pistol list the Ares Viper is the second cheapest gun, with the cheapest being the roomsweeper. It has a healthy 9P damage base (Better than the Ares Predator), can lay down bursts and long bursts, is inherently silenced (allowing it to take a gas vent accessory and be both silent and sustainable in a longer fight) and has the largest clip capacity of any heavy pistol in the core book, double that of its nearest contender.

Unfortunately, it also has some serious or even crippling issues.

Firstly, its accuracy. With a measly 4 as the weapon's base accuracy the gun has gone from an assassin's tool to a silent spray and pray machine. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, it really changes the role of the weapon in a way that I'm not entirely sold on as being an improvement. While this can be somewhat addressed with various aiming accessories, it'll never be as accurate as most of the category.

Secondly, its armour penetration is as dismal as you would expect for flechettes. Unfortunately, the corresponding boost to base damage isn't really enough to put it in the same league as an Ares Predator against any foe with even a hint of armour. In 4th edition the damage increase was larger relative to other guns in its class and called shots could be used to bypass enemy armour, once again circling around to the idea of an assassin's weapon. Here, its straight out damage is inferior to the defining weapon of the class even without factoring in special ammunition.

Thirdly, it cannot use special ammunition. Not only does this mean it is rapidly outclassed by other guns using the right weapon for the job, but it also means that you cannot load it with non-lethal rounds if you have to take a foe alive. On the other hand, it also means that if your foe is wearing an armour jacket you are literally unable to deal lethal damage without both an aiming aid AND a called shot for extra damage.

Finally, its specialty (the ability to fire bursts and thus reduce the enemy's ability to dodge/hit multiple targets as a simple action) is outdone by the cheapest gun in the class, the Remington Roomsweeper. Though the Roomsweeper is incapable of firing bursts beyond a semi-automatic burst, when loaded with Flachette rounds it uses the shotgun rules. This means that when used on semi-automatic mode with a narrow choke it is already inflicting a -1 modifier to dodge to the Sliver gun's -0. A short burst takes the Sliver gun up to -2, but because of recoil the roomsweeper will rapidly outclass you at endurance. When the roomsweeper starts playing with the choke settings this becomes far more pronounced, with the roomsweeper able to attack multiple foes with a single shot while inflicting a large dicepool penalty AND not forcing the attacker to split his dicepool or use his free action. If worst comes to worst the Roomsweeper can actually lay out a superior dodge penalty to the Slivergun by firing a semi-automatic burst at wide choke, inflicting a -7 penalty instead of the long burst's -5. To add insult to injury the Roomsweeper is capable of loading any ammunition type a normal gun could in a pinch AND is cheaper.

Final conclusion: If you need to take a pistol to gun down a horde of critters, the Slivergun is a solid choice. If you are coming up against semi-competent opposition, this gun is one of the worst choices for sidearm. A pity, as it's also one of the more interesting guns in the game.

It's a throwaway gun. For its price, it's actually really good if need to take care of something quietly, since it's a silenced gun that's cheaper than a silencer.

If some one knows you are shooting at them, you already messed up.

From a real-world point of view, this makes zero sense.

Silencers work by capturing and baffling the gasses released when you fire a round.

Gas vents work by releasing those same gasses out the top of the barrel to counter the weapon rising from recoil.

They should ALWAYS be incompatible, regardless of mount availability.



-k

Except in the case of the bulky but cute German Kuckuck (Cuckoo) 7.65 Pistol where the built in silencer/gas vent system vented the gas through a series of chambers built along the barrel each with the same sort of twin whistles as used in cuckoo clocks, thus each chamber providing partial release and barrel control, turning the distinct crack of the shot into a series of rapid cuckoo clock sounds, the supposed logic being that anyone hearing the shot would put it down to several of those annoying clocks going off. Or maybe the gunsmith just liked cuckoo clocks.

Needless to say it was designed for more urban area, though rumours have it there is a limited edition CAS model which does duck calls instead.

Assuming that the Slivergun actually uses standard cartridge technology (of any type) to fire the weapon, yes.

However, there are likely several ways (game wise anyways) of creating a Slivergun/Needlegun, using technology that does not rely upon standard cartridge technology. Can't remember the game system of the top of my head (been a few years since I played whatever it was), but there is one that uses ammunition blocks that get stripped by the action of the weapon (somehow) with the resulting slivers fired without any chemical propellants at all. Don't ask me to make it work by physics, but the writeup is cool indeed.

I was always fond of Star Frontier needlers.

Gas Vents require releasing expanding gasses. Period. Either you have expanding gasses, in which case the silencer doesn't work due to the gasses being loudly released by the gas vent, or there are no expanding gasses, which means the gas vent dosen't work.

They are devices which simply operate by diametrically opposed mechanical principles.

Now, a silencer (more properly called a suppressor) can in and of itself reduce recoil somewhat, because the expanding gasses being captured means there is much less gas jetting out the barrel forcing the weapon to rise. But this isn't reflected in the rules.



-k

I agree that they are diametrically opposed mechanics. And yet, when it comes to something like the Slivergun, they do not actually tell you how the weapon is silenced, nor its operating principle, which means that you get some wired interactions. At least in SR4A, they had guidelines for those interactions. Maybe they will have them, eventualy, in SR5. Who knows.

And on your Ninja Edit... I agree...

I've never parsed the Slivergun as an assassin's weapon. To me, it's always been a bit of a toy carried by someone who doesn't usually use guns - either a support-role PC, or more likely a corpman's "self-defence" weapon.

Its virtues are low cost, easy use; a large magazine means no need to carry reloads; though not reflected mechanically, the fluff implies a low recoil impulse which means you can get away with poor firing stance and don't get sore wrists; and it's "spiffy."

Its downsides, as you noted, are moderate damage, poor penetration, and specialised ammunition - not only can it not use regular ball rounds, but (at least in older editions, I haven't checked to see if it stayed in 5th) it can't even use other heavy pistol Flechette ammo.

These things, to me, made it a suit's toy or a saturday night special, more than anything you'd want to take into a straight-up firefight.

it's plenty good against unarmoured targets as well, which means it may be the weapon of choice for people who are worried about being attacked by feral ghouls or dogs or devil rats and the like.

I've successfuly used it as an assasins weapon and in combat for quite a while now... a shame, what they did there in SR5.

And not just to the Slivergun.

Sounds like the ammunition system in Mass Effect guns. Ammunition is actually a block of solid metal that the gun shaves slivers off of, and uses mass effect fields to fling at the enemy at relativistic speeds.

I think you're talking about Battletech needler.

As for sound suppressor/recoil comp... I agree that it makes no sense. I know in 4th edition if you wanted the recoil comp you had to turn off the suppressor (free action if it was a smartgun).

Probably... Thanks.

How, exactly, does one "turn off" a suppressor?

Cyberpunk 2020 has one - a flywheel rips shreds out of a ceramic block and centrifugal force sends them through the barrel (rule-wise, it made multiple low-damage hits - useless against even the lightest armor, but nasty on a nudie). The fluff had a very nice comment : 'the effect of a shotgun with the noise of an electric toothbrush'.

Relatively easily : close the hole in the barrel that sends the gases into the slincer and you get an unsilenced gun. Do the same with the gas vents and you can switch. And maybe even close both for getting a bit of extra hitting power if you can handle the recoil.

You don't, really... You "turn off" the Barrel Porting by closing the ports, at which point the suppressor is useless, as the gases have already been vented...
So, in effect, you either have the Recoil Compensation or you don't. If you don't have the Recoil Compensation active, then you get Sound Suppression.

Don't tell me this thing is hackable.

It's SR5, you're StufferShackMegaBurrito is hackable.


Wireless Bonus:

Can choose explosive or silent but deadly......

Both the roomsweeper and the slivergun took a hit in this edition. I suspect the rational is the slivergun gets burst fire and has a 30 shot clip giving it a SMG replacement factor, the roomsweeper has shotgun like capabilities. So they reduced the base damage to 7 and dropped the accuracy down to 4. One of those would have been a decent limitation, both seem like overkill. And honestly I don't think you would need either, the slivergun had +1 damage not -1 damage in 4e and I don't think people took that all the time. The ammo restriction was a big enough penalty, a more versatile gun just was more effective. Every pistol is cheap so being a couple hundred nuyen cheaper is not really a decent balancing factor. Now these seem like guns people wont take outside of flavor reasons anymore, and they will have to really want them as it is a mechanical penalty to use it.

I can see the assassin's gun angle, but my idea of assassination isn't about blowing through armor. It is catching the target out of armor. In his home, or at a private party. While a shadowrunner's world is dangerous and usually requires armor, people with big money pay that big money to other people for the security of not having to wear armor in the breakfast nook. Seduce your target to a hotel suite, or pose as a waiter. Flechette ammo is not effective in potential combat situations where people are expected to wear defense. Why not just get explosive ammo? It costs a little more, but it works out to a better DV on average. Flechette ammo gives you an extra +1 DV, but your target gets 6 more dice to defend with. (This is taking into account the difference between -1 AP and +5 AP.) That averages out to two hit on damage resistance. In effect, it gives you a net +0 DV.

I don't really see the assassin angle even. If you need to get up close and its a target worth killing there is probably some security you need to get past and you will want smaller guns and ones that get past MAD scanners and some way to get past chem sniffers. And chances are a concealed blade or other more silent more easily concealed weapon wold be used first. It and the roomsweeper just suck for Heavy Pistol class weapons, they are mechanically worse. While I like the better diversity in guns there are some just bad guns out there and some that are just the best which in play works against diversity even if the stats are more diverse.

I cannt believe that this thread got to two dozen replies without a single mention of ally spirts, dikote, foci, or sex.

What's wrong with you, Dumpshock?




-k

hey, in the post a couple of places before yours, someone mentioned seducing a target and luring them to a motel, minus their armour (presumably on the pretext of having sex with them as opposed to letting them know of your real plan for the evening of just shooting them a whole bunch of times).

that's at the very least a veiled reference to sex

Because we were saving the Dikoted Phallic Foci for Astral Sex with Spirits for it's own thread.

weird... you've been around as long as i have. you're not aware of the dumpshock meme of having your ally spirit take the form of an ares viper slivergun, dikoting it, and then having sex with it?

wonder how you managed to miss that one =S it seems to crop up fairly often.

(it started off as a joke about threads that kept on popping up, or discussion topics, or something like that, i think... it started before my time, but i've heard it joked about many times).

Ah, but I have been.... away.... for a good chunk of that.



The one downside to prolonged absences that seem to last ages.