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Axl
With the new (old?) Initiative system in SR5, characters with good Reaction and Intuition have a moderate chance getting 2 initiative passes per turn. Wired Reflexes now give an average bonus of +4.5 to Initiative per Rating point. This is far less than the required 10 points for a full extra pass. Even Rating 2 only gives +9, still less than a full extra pass.

Wired Reflexes appears to be significantly nerfed in SR5. Would it really be a problem to give +2d6 per Rating point instead of +1d6?
Chrome Head
The nerf to initiative enhancements such as wired reflexes and increase reflexes spell is very real, and very intentional from the designers, I'm sure.

And no it's not a problem to house rule whatever rule you like... But don't ask for our "approval".

I personally like that nerf as everything was becoming about passes in SR4A, and not enough about skill, tactics, etc. You had to find ways to give more than one pass to any schmuck you'd hope would be more than a minor annoyance to the runners.

I also don't really see it as a nerf, since it's now much easier to get 2 passes. For example, a mundane human with Reaction 5 and Intuition 5 now has 2 passes unless wounded; pretty neat. And don't forget initiative score is used to parry and other interrupts, so a +5 to your initiative score, even when not giving you another pass, can still be very useful.
FuelDrop
I have to agree that reducing the number of initiative passes for top end combatants while increasing them for low end combatants was a great move. It's one of the reasons I'm sticking with 5th edition in spite of its flaws.
Smash
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Oct 2 2013, 08:24 AM) *
I have to agree that reducing the number of initiative passes for top end combatants while increasing them for low end combatants was a great move. It's one of the reasons I'm sticking with 5th edition in spite of its flaws.


and in all honesty, it isn't anymore flawed than 4th ed anyway. I'd say if you balance out the improvements with the oversights it still comes out as a much better system. For instance I've only read the matrix section once and I think I understand it better than the 4th Ed matrix that I must have read through 20 times....... and it seems like it has more depth. That gets 10 out of 10 from me.

On topic I think that less initiative passes is a good thing. It means that less people will be sitting around waiting for the ninjas in the party to play out 4 turns to their 1-2 and puts everyone on a more even footing.

Perversely, I like the fact that they nerfed Technomancers as I think they had too much of a reputation to be gods of the matrix. I would have been happier if they had written them out of the game altogether but I also understand that a lot of people like them so in their present form they don't suit everyone.

The main downside of the game now are the area of effect rules. Grenades are simply too good. At least mana/powerball is unlikely to do much damage to you so that's not so bad. I really think thay just need to make explosives more tactical. Either get rid of airburst mechanics or give people some kind of defensive roll to get out of the area of effect. This way explosives achieve their objectives of removing cover without being insta-jib weapons.

Sorry for the digression grinbig.gif
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Smash @ Oct 2 2013, 06:42 AM) *
and in all honesty, it isn't anymore flawed than 4th ed anyway. I'd say if you balance out the improvements with the oversights it still comes out as a much better system. For instance I've only read the matrix section once and I think I understand it better than the 4th Ed matrix that I must have read through 20 times....... and it seems like it has more depth. That gets 10 out of 10 from me.

On topic I think that less initiative passes is a good thing. It means that less people will be sitting around waiting for the ninjas in the party to play out 4 turns to their 1-2 and puts everyone on a more even footing.

Perversely, I like the fact that they nerfed Technomancers as I think they had too much of a reputation to be gods of the matrix. I would have been happier if they had written them out of the game altogether but I also understand that a lot of people like them so in their present form they don't suit everyone.

The main downside of the game now are the area of effect rules. Grenades are simply too good. At least mana/powerball is unlikely to do much damage to you so that's not so bad. I really think thay just need to make explosives more tactical. Either get rid of airburst mechanics or give people some kind of defensive roll to get out of the area of effect. This way explosives achieve their objectives of removing cover without being insta-jib weapons.

Sorry for the digression grinbig.gif

I'm split on the new matrix. It's better rules for on-the-fly work, but for a detailed hack the old rules are more my speed. Opinion may change when the new matrix sourcebook comes out.
Jaid
QUOTE (Smash @ Oct 1 2013, 06:42 PM) *
Perversely, I like the fact that they nerfed Technomancers as I think they had too much of a reputation to be gods of the matrix. I would have been happier if they had written them out of the game altogether but I also understand that a lot of people like them so in their present form they don't suit everyone.


they didn't just have the reputation of being the gods of the matrix. they *were* the gods of the matrix. and they did need nerfing. so far as i am aware, nobody has complained that technomancers didn't need nerfing, either.

what we're complaining about is that they went way overboard and nerfed them too much. if 5-6 is ideal balance, 1 is awfully underpowered, and 10 is awfully overpowered, technomancers used to be about a 7 or 8 (10 in the matrix), got nerfed down to a 1 or 2 (probably about 2-3 in the matrix, maybe a 4 if you're feeling generous), and *should* have wound up next to deckers in the 5-6 region (although depending on the decker - adept deckers in particular - the decker may fall in a bit higher than they should be as well, in SR5).

in short, for most people they're either much too weak, or should have been removed (and since removing them is much easier than making rules from scratch, it makes sense to include rules for them as the default and let those who hate them simply pretend they don't exist). there appear to be a very few people on the dumpshock forums at least who feel that technomancers are fine as is, but i'd say for the vast majority CGL completely missed the mark.
Emil Barr
It annoys me somewhat. It costs a lot of nuyen and essence to get WR, even at lvl I

Mundane: 6 Rea + 6 Int + 1d6 = 18 max 15 avg

WR1: 7 Rea + 6 Int + 2d6 = 25 max 19 avg Thats what, a 50% shot of a 3rd init pass?

Not much of an advantage, so I can see it not being justified to some people. Youll probably go first but wont necessarily dishout more damage than anyone else, due to lost init passes. If youre like me and prefer making samurai on resources B or C, you know WR II is a bit of a luxury on those priorities.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (Emil Barr @ Oct 1 2013, 06:54 PM) *
It annoys me somewhat. It costs a lot of nuyen and essence to get WR, even at lvl I

Mundane: 6 Rea + 6 Int + 1d6 = 18 max 15 avg

WR1: 7 Rea + 6 Int + 2d6 = 25 max 19 avg Thats what, a 50% shot of a 3rd init pass?

Not much of an advantage, so I can see it not being justified to some people. Youll probably go first but wont necessarily dishout more damage than anyone else, due to lost init passes. If youre like me and prefer making samurai on resources B or C, you know WR II is a bit of a luxury on those priorities.


Your example is strange. Who has 6 reaction and 6 intuition at character creation? Those are hard maxes (can't have more than 1) and also would cost 10 attribute points.. Anyway, your math is also wrong, averages are 15.5 and 20 there.

If you look at a more reasonable 4 Rea and 4 Int, you go from having a 2nd pass 67% of the time to having 2 passes every time and the potential for a 3rd one (albeit only on a 12, with 1/36 odds). But don't forget also that you will get 16+ initiative on average, which provides the chance for a "free" dodge-like interrupt action. It's a significant improvement to have those wired reflexes for that 2nd pass, better chance to go first, extra die to dodge, and extra init to spend on dodging, just not the overwhelmingly dominating 'ware it used to be.
Bull
Coming from SR4 it looks nerfed. But SR4 SERIOUSLY buffed Initiative in a BIG way. SR5 actually reverted Initiative back to how it worked in SR3 (more or less, though it's actually slightly better now).
Epicedion
QUOTE (Bull @ Oct 1 2013, 10:34 PM) *
Coming from SR4 it looks nerfed. But SR4 SERIOUSLY buffed Initiative in a BIG way. SR5 actually reverted Initiative back to how it worked in SR3 (more or less, though it's actually slightly better now).


What can't be stressed enough is SR4's disconnect between multiple IPs and being good at initiative. Your dude with Reaction Enhancers 3, Reaction 6 (9), and Intuition 5 would have 14 + hits (~18 initiative), compared to someone with decent stats and Wired Reflexes 1, say Reaction 5 (6) Intuition 4, for 10 + hits (~13 initiative), and go way faster but then sit on his thumbs while the significantly slower guy would act twice without fail.

You also lose the potential for edge cases like a character with Reaction 1, Intuition 1, Wired Reflexes 3 acting at Initiative 5 + hits (~6) and going 4 times every round.

SR5 has a significant buff to initiative from SR3, where initiative was Reaction + dice, and Reaction was (Quickness + Intelligence)/2 -- meaning a dead average person would get 3 + 1d6, and never get two IPs. In SR5 an average person (6 + 1d6) will get two IPs roughly 1/3 of the time.

So the net result is mundanes acting more often than SR3 or SR4, and Wired characters acting faster but somewhat less often than SR4.
Jaid
if anything, i'd say it actually increased motivation to get the higher levels of wired reflexes... i mean, in SR4 it always felt like combat was over so fast, you never needed a 4th initiative pass anyways. now, WR 3 at least offers a higher chance to get the all-important second (and the fairly-important third) round. though of course, unless you've got the nuyen to shell out for some deltaware, you're not going to have much else if you get WR 3 =S
Epicedion
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 2 2013, 12:07 AM) *
if anything, i'd say it actually increased motivation to get the higher levels of wired reflexes... i mean, in SR4 it always felt like combat was over so fast, you never needed a 4th initiative pass anyways. now, WR 3 at least offers a higher chance to get the all-important second (and the fairly-important third) round. though of course, unless you've got the nuyen to shell out for some deltaware, you're not going to have much else if you get WR 3 =S


Not only that, but Wired 3 and Reaction Enhancers 3 stacking (opening you up to the dreaded uberhacker that's always waiting around every corner for you to go online) plus a high Reaction and Intuition (let's say 5 and 6) can get you 17 + 4d6 which will put you in the 30s a lot of the time for 4 actions, with the ever slim chance of a 41 for 5 actions.

Also you'll be going first pretty much all the time, which is really one of the most important things you can do, what with guns being fairly deadly. Also if you surprise a group of people without initiative enhancers (the -10 to Initiative probably knocks them out of acting for the full turn), you might just get 3-4 full action phases with them in perpetual surprise. Which means multiple phases of attacks with no defense possible.

That means being able to open a door face to face with a security squad, and put 3 aimed called shots into them before they get to act. And then going first the next turn with the squad still surprised (wears off on their first action phase!), where you can chuck in a grenade and slam the door.

Yeah, wired reflexes are still extra-awesome.
Emil Barr
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Oct 2 2013, 03:03 AM) *
Your example is strange. Who has 6 reaction and 6 intuition at character creation? Those are hard maxes (can't have more than 1) and also would cost 10 attribute points.. Anyway, your math is also wrong, averages are 15.5 and 20 there.

If you look at a more reasonable 4 Rea and 4 Int, you go from having a 2nd pass 67% of the time to having 2 passes every time and the potential for a 3rd one (albeit only on a 12, with 1/36 odds). But don't forget also that you will get 16+ initiative on average, which provides the chance for a "free" dodge-like interrupt action. It's a significant improvement to have those wired reflexes for that 2nd pass, better chance to go first, extra die to dodge, and extra init to spend on dodging, just not the overwhelmingly dominating 'ware it used to be.


I went with a best case scenario, since the topic wasnt explicitly about character gen.

Course, any mook on Jazz or Kaikaze is going to be just about as fast as someone with WRII. One of those, this only sucks if youre a PC who has to worry about its long term use, type things grinbig.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Oct 1 2013, 07:03 PM) *
Your example is strange. Who has 6 reaction and 6 intuition at character creation? Those are hard maxes (can't have more than 1) and also would cost 10 attribute points.. Anyway, your math is also wrong, averages are 15.5 and 20 there.

If you look at a more reasonable 4 Rea and 4 Int, you go from having a 2nd pass 67% of the time to having 2 passes every time and the potential for a 3rd one (albeit only on a 12, with 1/36 odds). But don't forget also that you will get 16+ initiative on average, which provides the chance for a "free" dodge-like interrupt action. It's a significant improvement to have those wired reflexes for that 2nd pass, better chance to go first, extra die to dodge, and extra init to spend on dodging, just not the overwhelmingly dominating 'ware it used to be.


I have an Unaugmented character (SR4A) with an 8 and a 4... for a 12 Initiative... smile.gif
He always goes First in the first (and only) pass, too...
xsansara
From my experience, you need the high initiative for dodging and even low lifes tend to get a second action (or option for full dodge). If you have less than 20 ini, you only get to act once (and dodge), which usually means that you are not able to wear down opposition with more actions (e.g. by being more people or having better wares). OK for non-fighters and mooks, but not really acceptable for sam-type characters. However, for getting 20+ consistently, you need something in the region of 14+3d6, which is kind of expensive (in both Nuyen and PP).

Also, you have to be aware that although SR5 fights are quite fast in RL, they often take several rounds, due to the changes in dodging. Which means, even if you are better than your opposition, attacking gives a chance to take out someone, not a guarantee (unless you throw a grenade). Which also means that when you are out-numbered, you probably need to keep up bullet-dancing for quite a while, before the fight breaks to your advantage, which can be quite draining on Edge. Which means that the GM needs less low-level mooks to put a PC in danger.

I do recall, when in SR4 my Gunslinger Ad killed 18 ganger, without taking cover or damage even once. I seriously doubt you could do that in SR5, although dodging has become easier. At some point someone will roll good and you will roll bad at the same time. And then you will run out of Edge.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (xsansara @ Oct 2 2013, 08:41 AM) *
I do recall, when in SR4 my Gunslinger Ad killed 18 ganger, without taking cover or damage even once. I seriously doubt you could do that in SR5, although dodging has become easier. At some point someone will roll good and you will roll bad at the same time. And then you will run out of Edge.


I think you just showed everyone why SR5 is better. There is a difference between playing elite specialists and playing superheros. I like my shadowrun to have high lethality. Not only do I want to take damage, but I want to die when I'm stupid enough to go up against 18 gangers by myself without cover. Period.

I'm starting to feel like some of you are just going: I used to be completely untouchable and afraid of nothing, now I might die against mooks wouuaaaahhhh
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Oct 2 2013, 09:09 AM) *
I think you just showed everyone why SR5 is better. There is a difference between playing elite specialists and playing superheros. I like my shadowrun to have high lethality. Not only do I want to take damage, but I want to die when I'm stupid enough to go up against 18 gangers by myself without cover. Period.

I'm starting to feel like some of you are just going: I used to be completely untouchable and afraid of nothing, now I might die against mooks wouuaaaahhhh


I actually think that is specific to his table (ESPECIALLY the not taking cover bit when outnumbered 18 to 1 - such things at our table would result in death), more than a general experience. Never, in my time with SR4A, have I EVER seen such fatality figures by a single character. So no, I don't think it is a general situation that SR5 is better, just that it would be better at HIS table.
Emil Barr
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 2 2013, 04:28 PM) *
I actually think that is specific to his table (ESPECIALLY the not taking cover bit when outnumbered 18 to 1 - such things at our table would result in death), more than a general experience. Never, in my time with SR4A, have I EVER seen such fatality figures by a single character. So no, I don't think it is a general situation that SR5 is better, just that it would be better at HIS table.


Closest I ever got to that in SR4 was this one time our voodoo shaman forceably posessed me with a spirit > F6. It didnt help that I was carrying a machinegun at the time. wobble.gif
Isath
Well.... I can easily come up with characters and situations where someone, facing 18 gangers, without cover, would survive in SR5 and die rather quickly in SR4 (no grenades allowed). SR4 often is more lethal than SR5 ...until you count the use of matter- antimatter reactions in grenades, since SR5.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Isath @ Oct 2 2013, 01:42 PM) *
Well.... I can easily come up with characters and situations where someone, facing 18 gangers, without cover, would survive in SR5 and die rather quickly in SR4 (no grenades allowed). SR4 often is more lethal than SR5 ...until you count the use of matter- antimatter reactions in grenades, since SR5.


Grenades are deadly. Sitting on a grenade detonation point is a one-way ticket to the great runner retirement community in the sky. A modern fragmentation hand grenade is expected to kill everything within a 5 meter radius and produce injuries of varying degrees out to 15 meters.

In that sense, SR5 grenades have it about right.

An average human in an armor jacket has Body 3 and Armor 12.

Fragmentation Grenade: 18P (-1/m), +5AP
0 meters: 18P -- 20 dice to resist. 6 hits on average, producing 12P (armor < damage)
1 meter: 17P -- 20 dice to resist. 6 hits on average, producing 11S (damage = armor)
5 meters: 13P -- 20 dice to resist. 6 hits on average, producing 7S (damage < armor).
Each additional meter out reduces the damage by approximately 1S, meaning at 12 meters the target is likely to take 0 damage.

HE Grenade: 16P (-2/m), -2 AP
0 meters: 16P -- 13 dice to resist. 4 hits on average, producing 12P (armor < damage)
3 meters: 10P -- 13 dice to resist. 4 hits on average, producing 6S (damage = armor)
5 meters: 6P -- 13 dice to resist. 4 hits on average, producing 2S (damage < armor)
Each additional meter out reduces the damage by approximately 2S, meaning at 6 meters the target is likely to take 0 damage.

Now if you ramp your defender up with full body + helmet armor (high-security forces, HTRs, military), he'll have Body 3 and Armor 18.
Frag Grenade: Armor is modified to 23, for 26 defense dice. Armor is always greater than damage, so it's always stun. You can expect 8 hits, for 8S at the detonation point, reducing linearly 1S per 1 meter, to 0 damage at 8 meters.
HE Grenade: Armor is modified to 16, for 19 defense dice. Armor is always equal to or greater than damage, so it's always stun. You can expect 6 hits, for 10S at the detonation point, reducing linearly 2S per 1 meter, to 0 damage at 5 meters.

Further, note that the test for placing a grenade is Thrown Weapons + Agility (3). Since Medium range for average throwers is generally within the blast radius, expect most to be thrown either at Long range. This means that in order to hit the threshold half the time or more, and barring other situational modifiers, you need to have at least Thrown Weapons + Agility of 12, which is pretty high. A little bit of scatter means an incapacitating shot is likely to turn into a mere wound (especially if you're throwing to maximize the damage on multiple targets, making the grenade a really expensive one-shot method of not killing someone. Considering that a sniper rifle is likely to do more damage at 100 times the range, it seems to be a fair trade-off.

So yes, grenades are deadly, but not nearly as deadly as you're making them out to be.
Chrome Head
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Oct 2 2013, 02:47 PM) *
Further, note that the test for placing a grenade is Thrown Weapons + Agility (3). Since Medium range for average throwers is generally within the blast radius, expect most to be thrown either at Long range. This means that in order to hit the threshold half the time or more, and barring other situational modifiers, you need to have at least Thrown Weapons + Agility of 12, which is pretty high.


I'm not sure it is that hard to get 3 hits. First, use a grenade launcher (there's one under the Ares Alpha) to increase your range (5-50 meters short range). At short range you only need 9 dice to get 3 hits on average. That's 4 Agi, 4 Heavy Weapons, and a smartlink in your contacts, for instance. It's still hard to get for many of the mooks, but not that hard to get in the big picture. A shadowrunner does not have be built specifically for that purpose to easily get a DP of 12+ on that roll.

This being said, your analysis is very good and it does put into perspective the lethality of grenades, which is still very, very high for anything exploding at your feet. This makes sense realistically, but it is quite brutal in game terms, given that there is no defense against it. Once again though, staying behind cover can mitigate the effects, because the nade can't reach your feet if there's an obstacle between you and the person firing, and that obstacle also helps you resist the damage.

Also, in my mind using a grenade is not always a possibility, either for the opposition or for the runners. Whenever the fighting ground is also a place that you are trying to protect, you are unlikely to want to nade it. There is also a certain level of risk (hurting teammates/civilians) in using grenades, especially at long range. And for the runners, you are greatly increasing the damage done (public awareness) and provoking threat response teams to use higher care (read: trying to kill you harder).

After saying all this, I'm still not sure SR5 nades are balanced adequately.
Jaid
to be fair, for the grenades to have full effectiveness you're either going to have to leave yourself wide open to them being hacked, or spend an extra action here and there to use them. grenades are only any good if you can detonate them via wireless, pretty much; any other way gives your opponent time to respond, and therefore potentially a chance to avoid them entirely.

and switching wireless on takes an action, as does detonating them...
Umidori
"Wred."

"Sheparx."

~Umi
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