The police in Shadowrun are somewhat infamous, and with good reason.
However, when you stop and think about it you realize that unless you're making it too risky for them they'll try and take you alive.
Why?
The security corps run the prisons. They get paid to do so, but they need to have enough convicted criminals to fill them up. Now I am not certain if they are payed per head or just when their prisons have a minimum population, but either way having more criminals taken alive means more money for them. This goes double for magically powered criminals, as they justify specialized security expenses and any SINless spellslingers beyond the minimum needed to get their special security grant can be sold off to the megacorps.
Now obviously, that doesn't translate to "Cops will try to take the PCs alive at any costs". They want to live to spend their money, after all. However, if the players trip a burglary alarm or attract the cops in a similarly non-combat manner then it makes sense for them to attempt to capture, rather than kill.
Full Version: Why the cops want to take you alive.
I don't buy the reasoning. I've worked at a few companies with multiple subsidiaries, but never felt the need to send business to or support their other subsidiaries. What's in it for the officer to put more people in prison? Brand loyalty?
Now, at a corporate level, yeah, maybe Lone Star might have policies in place to ensure good prison populations to justify their big contracts, but at the street level the grunts probably don't care. They'll probably want to keep people alive, because it's less paperwork and irritating reporters, and good arrest numbers are the way to advance. Or because 80% of people just aren't inclined to kill others, even when their lives are in danger.
Now, at a corporate level, yeah, maybe Lone Star might have policies in place to ensure good prison populations to justify their big contracts, but at the street level the grunts probably don't care. They'll probably want to keep people alive, because it's less paperwork and irritating reporters, and good arrest numbers are the way to advance. Or because 80% of people just aren't inclined to kill others, even when their lives are in danger.
Dead criminals help the matter a little. Caught criminals can be used in so many wonderful ways!
Especially when you start getting politics and the DA's office involved for State's Evidence!
Especially when you start getting politics and the DA's office involved for State's Evidence!
QUOTE (thorya @ Oct 8 2013, 05:07 PM) 
I don't buy the reasoning. I've worked at a few companies with multiple subsidiaries, but never felt the need to send business to or support their other subsidiaries. What's in it for the officer to put more people in prison? Brand loyalty?
Now, at a corporate level, yeah, maybe Lone Star might have policies in place to ensure good prison populations to justify their big contracts, but at the street level the grunts probably don't care. They'll probably want to keep people alive, because it's less paperwork and irritating reporters, and good arrest numbers are the way to advance. Or because 80% of people just aren't inclined to kill others, even when their lives are in danger.
Now, at a corporate level, yeah, maybe Lone Star might have policies in place to ensure good prison populations to justify their big contracts, but at the street level the grunts probably don't care. They'll probably want to keep people alive, because it's less paperwork and irritating reporters, and good arrest numbers are the way to advance. Or because 80% of people just aren't inclined to kill others, even when their lives are in danger.
But that top level stuff moves down the ladder in the form of attempts to incentivize the stuff that helps the corp more. Arrests might be worth more in terms of bonuses/promotions than kills.
Notably, KE might not bother with that in Seattle, as so far as I know Lone Star still has the prisons contract - why give the competition more business?
In order to better negotiate better to take over those businesses with your own prisons, correctional facilities, rehabilitation services (*Cough*), and work release programs where you pay even less than the typical going rate for a group that can't quit. 
It's about power.
You get so many laws in place and other restrictions that effectively almost anyone can become a criminal far too easily.
Then you have them under your thumb.
They will squirm and whine and cry, but ultimately the majority get ground down into submission.
Society wants to feel protected, but that protection also means not getting whacked by the very forces set above them to 'protect' them. They fool themselves into the illusion of a safe and secure world until they slip over the edge and find themselves in freefall into that deep abyss.
Try to kill them all, and the masses have no reason NOT to rise up and crush their oppressors as they literally have nothing to lose seeing as they are going to get killed anyway.
You get so many laws in place and other restrictions that effectively almost anyone can become a criminal far too easily.
Then you have them under your thumb.
They will squirm and whine and cry, but ultimately the majority get ground down into submission.
Society wants to feel protected, but that protection also means not getting whacked by the very forces set above them to 'protect' them. They fool themselves into the illusion of a safe and secure world until they slip over the edge and find themselves in freefall into that deep abyss.
Try to kill them all, and the masses have no reason NOT to rise up and crush their oppressors as they literally have nothing to lose seeing as they are going to get killed anyway.
Another reason is that LS and KE were required by law (in UCAS anyway) where they still pay lip service to civil liberties. The security corps are paid to abide by UCAS (or local) law. In Seattle that means that right to due process, and unreasonable search and seizure, et el still apply on some level. Granted it's not the Bill of Rights anymore but there is historical and social precedent to abide by these rules. Once on corp property those rules no longer apply but then fall under corp security under corp law as opposed to corp security under UCAS law.
This only applies to citizens with a SIN, IMO.
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
And since you can just scan for a transmitted SIN ...
Another point to consider is that those prisons are not necessarily a subsidiary of the cop's home corp. As far as I know, judges, courts and district attorneys are still public servants. If there is a trial, there's no guarantee for your arrestee to be send to 'your' prison.
For example, Lone Star still operates prisons in Seattle, despite it being under KE jurisdiction.
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
And since you can just scan for a transmitted SIN ...
Another point to consider is that those prisons are not necessarily a subsidiary of the cop's home corp. As far as I know, judges, courts and district attorneys are still public servants. If there is a trial, there's no guarantee for your arrestee to be send to 'your' prison.
For example, Lone Star still operates prisons in Seattle, despite it being under KE jurisdiction.
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 9 2013, 08:31 PM)
This only applies to citizens with a SIN, IMO.
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
I would think that in higher class areas i.e. not the barrens, there would be an outcry of the violence against the SINles if the murder/"resisting arrest" happens in the public eye. Out of sight out of mind in the 2070s. Just my opinion.
I don't think so. SINless people are very literally unwanted by the vast majority of the population. They are not supposed to even BE in higher class areas.
Shadowrun is pretty dark in this and a lot of other ways.
Shadowrun is pretty dark in this and a lot of other ways.
Or you make sure to capture the really dangerous criminals and make people pay you not only to lock them up, but to make sure you don't release them.
Life is cheap. Resources, however, have value.
"Human Resources" take a whole different meaning when you add in the idea of Criminal SINs that give you all the negatives of being a part of society and none of the positives.
"Human Resources" take a whole different meaning when you add in the idea of Criminal SINs that give you all the negatives of being a part of society and none of the positives.
Seriously, prisons are super-expensive, at least 20kUS$ per year per person, often more than 40kUS$. So for each prisoner you have to fire a low-level policeman to keep the balance sheet balanced. This does deduct prison labour BTW, but keep in mind that prison labor is only feasible in large scale for minimum security. Even POW camps and the gulags in Stalin Russia operated at a negative cash flow and although Nazi Germany did confiscate all of the Jews possessions, used their work force ruthlessly and industrialized their death, the Holocaust did cost Nazi Germany money and ressources on a scale that could have turned the war (at least until the US entered and just think about all the Jews that would have paid taxes and fought on their side).
Economically speaking, prisons are stupid, unless you allow for soft factors like crime prevention, and so on and disallow alternative punishments, such as summary execution, mutilation, public embarassment and slavery. (Not that I am in favour of slavery, I talking about economic incentives. Personally, I believe, it is the price a civilized society gladly has to pay for its humanity and justice. )
Just for contrast: Slavery works differently economically, in that it gives you access to an exclusive work force that you can exploit freely at the cost of food and lodging. Troublemaker slaves are usually killed or severely disciplined to keep the others in line, but this is only economic, if they stay a minority. Economically successful slavery includes establishing an authoritarian regime on the slaves and monopolizing important ressources, such as food, to keep everyone in line and using this for control rather than brute force, which is much more expensive. Slavery makes no sense at all, if you have easy access to a willing and cheap labour force, except for bordercases (e.g. prostitution). Just consider the span between labour value and necessary expenses for many low-earners. This is the earning span of the potential slave owner, minus the overhead for security measures and general organizational expenses. Of course, you can lower the expenses by serving bad food and only allowing for minimum housing or try to extract more labour value, but usually, people will try to do the second one anyway and there only so much you can cut from the expenses without hurting the labour value or inciting a rebellion. Plus, you can't really do that to high-earners, because their jobs typically require intrinsic motivation. Ancient Rome mitigated that problem by offering freedom to highly specialized and useful slaves, allowing them to work off their initial costs.
The only way to get money out of a prison, with its high security requirements, is if the earnings from the "slavery" come additionally to a fee from society in general (e.g. taxes), as in the case of private prison contractors.
If you want to construct a reason for Lone Starr not to kill runners, just think about the contract Lone Starr has with the state of Seattle. This contract probably causes all kinds of trouble for killing innocent citizens and lawyers will probably extend that to anyone not proven to be an innocent citizen. On the other hand, they probably will get a bonus (maybe even broken down to individual cops) for getting someone in front of a judge and successfully charged with something, so this is a strong incentive to go that road, until you are in danger. As pointed out before, this does not nessessarily apply to the SINless, as they won't be put in front of a judge, but to anyone with a fake SIN, no matter how fake, because you never know.
Economically speaking, prisons are stupid, unless you allow for soft factors like crime prevention, and so on and disallow alternative punishments, such as summary execution, mutilation, public embarassment and slavery. (Not that I am in favour of slavery, I talking about economic incentives. Personally, I believe, it is the price a civilized society gladly has to pay for its humanity and justice. )
Just for contrast: Slavery works differently economically, in that it gives you access to an exclusive work force that you can exploit freely at the cost of food and lodging. Troublemaker slaves are usually killed or severely disciplined to keep the others in line, but this is only economic, if they stay a minority. Economically successful slavery includes establishing an authoritarian regime on the slaves and monopolizing important ressources, such as food, to keep everyone in line and using this for control rather than brute force, which is much more expensive. Slavery makes no sense at all, if you have easy access to a willing and cheap labour force, except for bordercases (e.g. prostitution). Just consider the span between labour value and necessary expenses for many low-earners. This is the earning span of the potential slave owner, minus the overhead for security measures and general organizational expenses. Of course, you can lower the expenses by serving bad food and only allowing for minimum housing or try to extract more labour value, but usually, people will try to do the second one anyway and there only so much you can cut from the expenses without hurting the labour value or inciting a rebellion. Plus, you can't really do that to high-earners, because their jobs typically require intrinsic motivation. Ancient Rome mitigated that problem by offering freedom to highly specialized and useful slaves, allowing them to work off their initial costs.
The only way to get money out of a prison, with its high security requirements, is if the earnings from the "slavery" come additionally to a fee from society in general (e.g. taxes), as in the case of private prison contractors.
If you want to construct a reason for Lone Starr not to kill runners, just think about the contract Lone Starr has with the state of Seattle. This contract probably causes all kinds of trouble for killing innocent citizens and lawyers will probably extend that to anyone not proven to be an innocent citizen. On the other hand, they probably will get a bonus (maybe even broken down to individual cops) for getting someone in front of a judge and successfully charged with something, so this is a strong incentive to go that road, until you are in danger. As pointed out before, this does not nessessarily apply to the SINless, as they won't be put in front of a judge, but to anyone with a fake SIN, no matter how fake, because you never know.
QUOTE (xsansara @ Oct 10 2013, 09:02 AM)
The only way to get money out of a prison, with its high security requirements, is if the earnings from the "slavery" come additionally to a fee from society in general (e.g. taxes), as in the case of private prison contractors.
Er..what? How about calculating the fee so that it covers expenses plus some profit?
If the corps charge enough to run the prison to cover expenses and make a small profit, then use prison labor to create more profit, the model becomes more viable.
QUOTE (Chinane @ Oct 10 2013, 05:48 AM)
Er..what? How about calculating the fee so that it covers expenses plus some profit?
Yep, but can't add too much as it goes to the lowest bidder as well. It's still a contract afterall and the city will take bids for the job.
Contracts don't go to the lowest bidder, they go to the bidder who's best able to corrupt/influence whoever is taking the decision. And there are many ways to raise the costs once the contract has been made.
If you're looking for some reasons as to why that Secguards in Shadowrun are hesitant to kill, you need look no further than a civil court. As in real life, an officer-involved shooting (whether justified or not) almost always results in a civil suite. Either by the person shot or their family if they are deceased.
Of course, in Shadowrun, a SIN-less person is effectively a non-entity, but the guards wouldn't necessarily know it at the time.
Since I am a police officer in real life, I tend to be rather forgiving of my interpretation of corporate security in Shadowrun. I view them (usually) as just average working-class joes who are just drawing a pay check- with the occasional hero or villain thrown in.
Of course, in Shadowrun, a SIN-less person is effectively a non-entity, but the guards wouldn't necessarily know it at the time.
Since I am a police officer in real life, I tend to be rather forgiving of my interpretation of corporate security in Shadowrun. I view them (usually) as just average working-class joes who are just drawing a pay check- with the occasional hero or villain thrown in.
back on the problem, I's think law corps such as KE will refrain from indiscirmante SINles slaughter for several reasons :
1) it breeds nasty habits into your force - if your cops get used to solve any touble by killing the perp, odds are they'll soon kill a few SINners along with the great unwashed and that means costly legal tangles. It also increases the odds that internal problems will be solved by murders, which isn't exactly suited to smooth operations. Espcially if you're one of the top brass and your underlings may consider you as a problem...
2) image - fraggin some SINless gangers in the barrens isn't a problem (beyond amo costs), but do the same in a more public camera and soon you're going to be cast on the net as a bunch of jackbboted murderous thugs - which doesn't exactly help you getting law enforcement contracts. A good PR campagain may do wonders, but that costs money.
3) especially in more civilzed area of town, using lethal ammo means any stray shot has a potential for a costly collateral damage
4)on a lower order, if criminals know the cops will shoot to kill no matter what, odds are they' ll do their damned best to get loaded for bear and shoot first - whith increased collateral damage, cop insurance premiums and damaged hardawre. And once again, having an area you're supposed to police turn into a warzone, even for short shile, is bad for image and business.
5) not mater what, even a SINles reamins withing the legal definition of an human being, and killing him remains a muder and etchnically illegal - a private Citizen isn't allowed to shoot them on sight unles they're trespassing or doing something that let him invoke self defense, and the cops are in the same case, even if they have more leeway. As far as I know, 2070 laws still make it illegal to kill metahuman beings and a SINless qualify, even if he has no legal rights (think illegal alien rather than animal pest for the legal side)
Of course, once you start shooting at the cops, that veener of protection tends to get ditched fairly fast, but that's a different problem.
1) it breeds nasty habits into your force - if your cops get used to solve any touble by killing the perp, odds are they'll soon kill a few SINners along with the great unwashed and that means costly legal tangles. It also increases the odds that internal problems will be solved by murders, which isn't exactly suited to smooth operations. Espcially if you're one of the top brass and your underlings may consider you as a problem...
2) image - fraggin some SINless gangers in the barrens isn't a problem (beyond amo costs), but do the same in a more public camera and soon you're going to be cast on the net as a bunch of jackbboted murderous thugs - which doesn't exactly help you getting law enforcement contracts. A good PR campagain may do wonders, but that costs money.
3) especially in more civilzed area of town, using lethal ammo means any stray shot has a potential for a costly collateral damage
4)on a lower order, if criminals know the cops will shoot to kill no matter what, odds are they' ll do their damned best to get loaded for bear and shoot first - whith increased collateral damage, cop insurance premiums and damaged hardawre. And once again, having an area you're supposed to police turn into a warzone, even for short shile, is bad for image and business.
5) not mater what, even a SINles reamins withing the legal definition of an human being, and killing him remains a muder and etchnically illegal - a private Citizen isn't allowed to shoot them on sight unles they're trespassing or doing something that let him invoke self defense, and the cops are in the same case, even if they have more leeway. As far as I know, 2070 laws still make it illegal to kill metahuman beings and a SINless qualify, even if he has no legal rights (think illegal alien rather than animal pest for the legal side)
Of course, once you start shooting at the cops, that veener of protection tends to get ditched fairly fast, but that's a different problem.
QUOTE (CanRay @ Oct 9 2013, 06:40 PM)
Life is cheap. Resources, however, have value.
"Human Resources" take a whole different meaning when you add in the idea of Criminal SINs that give you all the negatives of being a part of society and none of the positives.
"Human Resources" take a whole different meaning when you add in the idea of Criminal SINs that give you all the negatives of being a part of society and none of the positives.
And when you think of Tanamous....
Arn't the SINless just free range ghoul food?
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Oct 9 2013, 07:31 PM)
This only applies to citizens with a SIN, IMO.
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
And since you can just scan for a transmitted SIN ...
SINless? You're only more paperwork if apprehended. Rent-a-Cops get little brochures with cartoons in 'em. They have a picture of a SINless person, and an explanation that says "Only arrest if an example needs to be made".
More enterprising cops will maybe beat you down because it's nicer to use those shocksticks, because they want to have some physical fun with you (whatever that may be), or if they extort you for money for letting you live.
And since you can just scan for a transmitted SIN ...
Unless something changed in a big way in SR5 this isn't accurate for Seattle. As mentioned up-thread the UCAS guarantees certain civil rights. One of those is not getting unnecessarily detained or shot. If you are SINless when they take you in then you are issued a Criminal SIN and processed like anyone else. The PSC can try to sweep things under the rug but in Seattle there are groups that scan arrests and step in to help the SINless get their basic rights. I've had players rely on that before by making calls to MOM or various lawyers. Especially funny has been scenes with hordes of lawyers staking out the front of precincts and jostling with each other to try and snag their business.
Wireless SINs are another matter entirely and largely part of the reason why I hate the current versions of SR (4 & 5) with the passion of a million burning suns.
Sure, the UCAS grant and guarantee civil rights. The kicker, however, is that you need to have a SIN to be a UCAS citizen.
If you don't, you're meat. If you have one and don't broadcast it, you're probably up to no good anyways. Even nowadays, civil rights are appallingly subverted by the US governmental agencies in the war against terror.
Not to go on a political tangent here, but SR is very dystopian, even more so than the current societal reality.
It simply boils down to this: Rent-a-Cops have to meet an arrest quota, to show the city or nation holding their contract that they do their jobs as agreed upon. They have numbers to show, issue a few criminal SINs and everyone is happy.
After the quota? They're pretty much free to do whatever they want to your SINless, worthless body. They might extort you for a little bonus to the KE widows fund, take all your stuff, beat you up a bit, hunt you for sport, or even kill you. The list goes on, of course, but the point is: Locking you up is more trouble than you're worth, be it in monetary or entertainment value.
Why? Because you don't exist. Non-existant entities cannot make use of civil rights.
Your mileage may vary, obviously,but this is the way I've always run my games, and I think, the source material supports my view
If you don't, you're meat. If you have one and don't broadcast it, you're probably up to no good anyways. Even nowadays, civil rights are appallingly subverted by the US governmental agencies in the war against terror.
Not to go on a political tangent here, but SR is very dystopian, even more so than the current societal reality.
It simply boils down to this: Rent-a-Cops have to meet an arrest quota, to show the city or nation holding their contract that they do their jobs as agreed upon. They have numbers to show, issue a few criminal SINs and everyone is happy.
After the quota? They're pretty much free to do whatever they want to your SINless, worthless body. They might extort you for a little bonus to the KE widows fund, take all your stuff, beat you up a bit, hunt you for sport, or even kill you. The list goes on, of course, but the point is: Locking you up is more trouble than you're worth, be it in monetary or entertainment value.
Why? Because you don't exist. Non-existant entities cannot make use of civil rights.
Your mileage may vary, obviously,but this is the way I've always run my games, and I think, the source material supports my view
QUOTE (Cheops @ Oct 15 2013, 02:37 PM)
Unless something changed in a big way in SR5 this isn't accurate for Seattle. As mentioned up-thread the UCAS guarantees certain civil rights. One of those is not getting unnecessarily detained or shot. If you are SINless when they take you in then you are issued a Criminal SIN and processed like anyone else. The PSC can try to sweep things under the rug but in Seattle there are groups that scan arrests and step in to help the SINless get their basic rights. I've had players rely on that before by making calls to MOM or various lawyers. Especially funny has been scenes with hordes of lawyers staking out the front of precincts and jostling with each other to try and snag their business.
Wireless SINs are another matter entirely and largely part of the reason why I hate the current versions of SR (4 & 5) with the passion of a million burning suns.
Wireless SINs are another matter entirely and largely part of the reason why I hate the current versions of SR (4 & 5) with the passion of a million burning suns.
Wireless Sins?
SINs are not wireless, just the presentation/vefication of them.
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