I've been looking at the called shot part of the combat rules and was wondering if any called shot is accepted and applied to Unarmed Combat skill.

I was thinking of a couple as specializations.

We allow "infight" as a specialization, so i wouldn´t have a problem with "called shot" as one. As long as you don´t try to make "unarmed" a specialization of "unarmed combat" everything is fine.

Low Blow, also referred to Monkey Reaching for Peaches

Just like the name implies, this called shot to the genital region is surprisingly effective on both males and females.

(There is still a major nerve cluster between the legs regardless of gender and can be quite painful, usually requiring an upward knife hand strike to properly hit the area on a female while the good old fashion straight on monkey punch or even a hard slap remains viable versus males. )


Chaining the Dog
Called shot at the instep or knee with the intent of making it bend side to side, which is does not do naturally. Can leave a target with a nasty limp or even knock them down.

Usually performed with a kick, but in some instances where one is blocking/countering an incoming kick, may use a hand strike to apply.

Any Named Martial Art works as a Specialty as well. I encourage research (or actual immersion through training, if one can afford it) to immerse onself in the art form.

I don't know that I'd allow that. Specialization is supposed to be a situational bonus, not a flat +2 dice all the time.

I would allow it... It is really No Different than the Speicalty of Semi Automatic for Pistols, or the Grenade Launcher Specialty for Heavy Weapons.
Sure, you could use a Revolver or a LMG, but why would you?

I agree. I think the specializations listed as examples for UC in 4th and 5th are poorly thought out. There should be generic specializations for attack (strike), defense, maybe attack (non-damaging), etc.

TJ, what you're saying here is that you agree there's a problem with UC specs, but that there's ALSO a problem with some of the other specs, like Pistol specs. I agree with you too, Pistols: semi-auto is too broad. I would probably go with the pistol categories, like Pistols: Heavy etc

Indeed, the categories for Pistols should be Light, Medium, Heavy, Coitus.

What's that? Why Coitus?

Surely you have heard of the Sex Pistols.

I do not agree that it is broken...
A specialty should be universally applicable most of the time, that is why they chose to specialize in it.

Heavy Pistol Specialty is Still just as broad... It is not really all that much of a problem. Characters are going to use their specialties as often as they can do so. Why care if that is 80% or 100% of the time at that point, especially since they can now (in SR5) cover EVERYTHING with MULTIPLE SPECIALTIES (Worst design choice ever).

Attacks that option to physical damage (harder Knock, splitting the damage, etc...) are pretty interesting. As they are alternatives to killing hands adept power...

Blast out of hands can be vital too. A relatively easy was to disarm an opponent.....

I dont think it was intended to specialize in most sub skills. If your going to spend say several points on one skill specializing, you might as well put the two points in the main skill and save yourself the trouble....

BUMP

I find it unlikely that i can have so many simultaneous posts to mine....

Sadly, once you bypass Skill Rank 3, it is cheaper for the Specialty boost of +2 Dice than it is to get the skill to the next level.
I think that multiple specializations in Shadowrun is a poor design choice.

Untrue.

You can raise a skill like spellcasting to 4 with 20 karma after character generation or pay the 7 karma per specialization for 35 karma. A big difference.

simultaneous post....

simultaneous post once again...

I think he meant specializations that apply to nearly every purpose character uses that skill. For example Pistols(Semiautomatics), Gunnery(Ballistic) or Pilot Groundcraft(Wheeled). Or that Unarmed Combat(Martial Art) when character always uses it.

Then it is 8 karma for +1 vs 7 for +2.

That's part of being a specialist.....
You use the skill all the time over other skills.
I suspect the the other core books will suggest penalties associated with specializations.

Where is martial arts listed in the rulebook?

Go for Unarmed specialty: MMA. There you go, that covers everything except bollock shots

Only as a example specialization to unarmed combat. Maybe later there will be martial arts rules in some book.
You could just describe character as trained in some style and always use it.

Where do you get 35 Karma From?
It is 7 Karma to Specialize... Raising a Skill to 4 Costs 8 Karma...
So From Skill 3...

Skill 3 to 4 = 8 Karma
Skill 3 (+2 Specialization) = 7 Karma.

Ergo - It is cheaper to gain +2 Dice than it is to gain +1 Dice... That occurs at the Skill Break from 3 to 4. The cost break just gets larger from there.

I doubt it...



Under the list for Specializations of Unarmed Combat.

I hope we can agree that two things can be "bad", but one of those things can be "more bad" than the other. Specializations on Pistols and HW and whatnot can be overbroad, sure, but that doesn't strike me as nearly as bad as the current UA specializations.

It's not that characters are going to use their specializations as often as possible...that makes sense for a player to do so. But is the character able to be put in a situation where the spec doesn't apply? For Pistols and HW, it's possible that the character doesn't have the correct weapon somehow. I can't imagine a scenario where the character would be able to use the UA skill but not be able to always add the +2 dice for the spec of "martial arts". You say yourself, a speciality should be universally applicable most of the time. For UA: martial arts, when would that spec bonus not apply?

I would say it doesn't apply with Shock Gloves, as that's a weapon that uses the unarmed skill. Also Cyber Implants are a separate spec so probably wouldn't apply to them either.

I'd note though that the spec actually says: By specific martial art
No martial art covered everything so as a player/GM you should pick an art and decide what it applies to. Kickboxing applies to punches and kicks. Judo to grabs and throws etc.

In my opinion, Each and Every Martial Art has weaknesses. This is why I advocate Research. To immerse oneself in the Style. That way, you KNOW (and Ideally the GM Knows) where the Style is strong and weak. Once you know that, you know what situations are problematic to the practitioner of that particular art. In some cases, however, Shadowrun has some made up Martial Arts, and so, there needs to be extrapolations.

That spec bonus would not apply for maneuvers/situations where the martial art is weak. If your Martial Art does not train grappling (and they are plenty of them out there) for example, then you are not getting your bonuses for grappling situations.

Will engage in some TJ fallacy here... Since I tend to actually do the research (or have trained in said art) and know the capabilities of the Martial Art I choose to specialize in, it has never been a problem, since I adjust as the situations change. It is obviously a dynamic thing, and the GM trusts me to do so correctly. It has yet to actually be a problem.

If it's a specialization....
It might be not applied when using any other skill except the base attack roll. Block, Subdue, Called Shots for example will be not part of the martial art specialization.

Yeah, that's a point about the specs. But that's a player choosing to use the UA skill in a way that doesn't grant the spec bonus. A player can always choose ways to use a skill that wouldn't grant the bonus. I'd say it's more important to identify situations where the player has no choice but to not use the spec. And in my opinion, many specs have a vanishingly small number of those situations, with martial arts being one of the prime offenders.


Your out-of-game knowledge is great, and certainly grants a richness to your play experience. Yet I don't think such things should be required to actually play the game.

I would say Block/Subdue/Called Shots are better candidates for UA specs than martial arts. Other than pure GM fiat, when can you not use a martial art to "block" ?

I'd argue that Unarmed specializations aren't any more unbalanced than others. Sure, I can see most people taking "Karate" as their specialization, but the other specializations are worth looking into (at least in my opinion). That alone makes it so it isn't just a free +2 dice.

Blocking: As I found out in my little thought experiments, defense pools are very important in melee. If I was making a non-combat character I would consider getting this specialization for his unarmed skill- he's only fighting in unarmed if something has gone terrible wrong, so 1 skill point in character creation for +2 defense dice seems like a good trade.
Cyber Implants: If you've got 'em, you want this. Most melee based characters I've created have got something of this nature, making me think it'd be even more ubiquitous than "random martial art" specialization.
Subduing: Subduing is actually really powerful. If you have a high strength, you can basically put a guard to sleep in a round or two. Plus, you get to whisper "Shh shh shh" like Wayne Brady, which I'm pretty sure is the point of Shadowrun. If you're making a stealth based character, I'd consider this specialization over some of the other ones simply because it's a way to keep the bad guy's quiet while not leaving a corpse behind.

-DrZ

I agree, I think specialties for several skills can be too broad, as in they will apply most or all of the time. Most of the combat active skills, assensing (aura reading over aura type..), running (sprinting), PGC (wheeled), demolitions (plastic explosives) and negotiation (bargaining) come to mind, though some of those are arguable. At the other end of the spectrum you have interesting skills specializations that are by type of something, like software, compiling/etc., spellcasting/conjuring/etc., etiquette, performance, first aid, locksmith, and so on.

I like the specializations of the second kind, and I dislike the ones of the first kind. The reason is that there is more to specializations then just going "duh, I get +2 dice with this skill now derp". I like to think of specialties as something that helps define a character, something that sets her apart from other similar runners. These specializations can link to a back story, there is an rp reason to select them.

But saying hey my guy is not only an expert at pistols, he's also a specialist of heavy pistols, doesn't sound like a specialty, it's more like a preference for those guns that you use almost exclusively, and now you also get +2 dice for it. But if you're saying he's a specialist at firing pistols against vehicles, or drones, or structures, or metahumans only (maybe too broad), that he's a specialist at point-blank or long range perhaps, or a specialist at called shots or aimed shots, or when shooting when you and the target are immobile, or shooting in the dark/blinded, now we have a defining characteristic of your character. Now we learn something about just how good you are at one aspect of your skill. Of course you have to strike a balance between applies to all, and very rarely applies at all, but I think it's much more fun and much more interesting when you go for something that isn't too broad in scope for your specialization. The rules should reflect that.

Back to martial arts, the same thing again. Ok, your character uses MMA-style techniques when fighting bare handed, but seriously, that sounds like it applies to both attack and defense, both standing and on the ground, both striking and grappling, from the front, from the back. Gosh, he's not that specialized after all. How about you're an MMA fighter and you specialize in grappling and take downs instead? Ah now we have something interesting. Or you use karate and you're especially good at blocking with your hands. Now we have something interesting. The fighting style is a defining characteristic of the UA skill, but it doesn't have to be the specialty all by itself if that specialty will just apply to everything.

TL/DR: I dislike broad, all-encompassing specialties. They should always tell something about the character, not be a +2 bonus all the time just because.

Part of the balance is recognizing the character generation process is playing with a finite number of resources, and players are more likely to just raise their skill by 1 rather than take a +2 in "ground fighting", simply from a cost benefit analysis. I'm not arguing that makes for the best characters (I agree, specializations should show how the character is unique, not that he spends most of his time driving 4 wheeled internal combustion vehicles), but from a game design perspective I understand where they're coming from.

Better look at karma costs than character creation costs (which are strange at times anyway). At 7 karma, you can define something interesting about your character. +2 dice for 7 karma is usually a good deal. If you're good at ground fighting, perhaps you will start using grappling a whole lot more if you specialize in it. After all, it's your specialty, it's what sets you apart, and you're good at it. You chose it anyway.

From a game design perspective, I don't understand why certain skills reward specializations a whole lot more than others.

My thought is that martial arts styles are primarily flavor, and shouldn't be modeled in the game mechanics. Specialization should grant its bonus to a specific action or subset of actions within the skill, rather than broadly aiding all actions performed in whatever manner or with whatever tool.

If you take firearms, for instance, here are some examples of what I'd want to see in terms of specialization:

Snap shot, aimed shot, burst, suppressive fire, quick-draw, anti-materiel, any of the specific called shots.

This would be in place of Pistols (Heavy) or Automatics (Assault Rifle).

In the case of Unarmed Combat, this would mean things like Unarmed Combat (Offense) and Unarmed Combat (Defense) and Unarmed Combat (Knock Down).

At which point the Character ends up using the specialty 80-100% of the time, and it is now a "problem" because the character is using it all the time. See the issue here, it is no longer an interesting thing, but something that he does all the time. And those who dislike that situation are once again complaining about it. Which is why I don't really care about trying to limit specialties all that much. As long as they make some sense, I am good. But having more than a single specialty is where it gets crazy, in my opinion.

To me it's really a matter of flavor. I disagree that the character is using grappling all the time. It doesn't apply to defense rolls using unarmed combat. It doesn't apply to hitting things that can't even be grappled, like a door. It doesn't apply to hitting someone, which you might want to do rather than grappling them, in a variety of situations. The point is that it is still restrictive. Much more than a martial arts style and that applies to 80-100% of every ACTION that you are likely to take.

Oh and I agree that having more than one specialty is not desirable, especially if it ends up covering more or less everything.

Im going by the rule that you can't apply more than one specialization for a skill at a time.

simutlaneous post...

+1, and ten internets to you, sir.