Over the years I have come to the conclusion that dancing the Two Gun Mojo is a terrible idea in real life. And in their attempts to emulate real life Shadowrun has frowned upon this practice.

My understanding of the heap of troubles that face a prospective Gun Bunny in this addition are as follows.

Gotta buy ambidexterity : 5 Karma
Recoil sux : recoil compensation on both pistols. about 100 each for a basic muzzle break.
SPlit dice pool? (is this still a thing?)
Anything I am missing here?

The biggest nerf to dual-wielding is that you split the dice pool AFTER modifiers, not before as in 4E. This particularly hits melee weapons, where a pair of good weapon foci could do wonders.

The question that this raises, then, is do modifiers now stack if you have multiples? For example, if you have two guns with +1 die each from smartgun systems or two swords with +1 die each from Customized Grips, do you get to add the modifiers together for a cumulative+2 before splitting the dice? Previously they didn't stack, but that was because you added them each independently after splitting your pool. If they don't stack not that they're added before, we lose out on 50% of the power.

And that on top of how much harder is it to even get dice pool modifiers in 5E...

~Umi

It's also very easy to get negative modifiers. What if the lighting is poor, there is some wind, and you're dual-wielding those pistols at long range? I'd be glad we split the dice after those modifiers, no?

I imagine that it makes sense for SS guns, like the Warhawk. Also, remember that defenders get a penalty to defense tests for each attack they defend against before they act again.

-DrZ

Yup. It's not worth it in a gunfight against skilled (or Wired up) opponents who know what's coming, but it can be a nasty way to start a fight against weak-ass opponents, folks who don't see it coming, or folks without Reaction enhancements (who are eventually going to flub a dodge test). It's more like a debuff than an attack, almost; likely to nickle and dime at someone and lay out some modifiers, a way to eat up their dodge tests, and a way to leave them exposed to a hardened killer with a more focused, damaging, attack.

But, also, Rule of Cool takes precedence sometimes.

So I noticed something interesting about the Multiple Attacks option in 5E (p. 196).

Down at the bottom of the entry, it states that "The total number of attacks you can make in a single Action Phase is limited to one-half the attacker’s Combat Skill." I then noted that while the various Firing Modes for guns all state that you can fire once per hand, neither melee weapons nor thrown weapons have this sort of restriction.

You appear to be able to use even a single melee weapon to attack as many times as you like in one action until you reach the one-half combat skill cap. You can also throw multiple readied thrown weapons in one action as long as you are within Medium or shorter range, again up to the cap.

~Umi

So feel free to swing away with that baseball bat

So if you have a "just in case man" in your party (some who carries two single action revolvers) the two gun mojo is how they get the second shot a round?

We always played with dual wielding like so(and we played it the same way in the older days, too): (NOTE: these are houserules and not official in any way)

Ambidexterity(the Edge or Positive Quality, depending on the edition), gets rid of any DP/TN modifiers for dual wielding. So you're good.

Then, pile on all the dice, modifiers, whatever.

THEN, the person gets to split the die pool *how they want.* This means if, say-I'll use SR5 since it's the most recent one, Bob has two weapons, and a total of 15 dice after everything. He can split these however he wants. If there are like, two guards, one which is harsher and one sorta peon, he can just allocate enough dice to harry the crappy one if he wants and force him to dodge(to perhaps help his teammate) while concentrating on actually trying to hurt the better one.

This makes dual wielding actually pretty fun, we found, it allows for more tactical variety, but it doesn't get terribly out of hand since you still need to split it. If you split it, say, 12/3 on one person? that's...well you might as well just hit them once with the full 15 at that point.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure these days you need two guns to get two shots a round, period. I remember being told this, anyway(I don't have every 5e rule committed to memory yet, but I remember being pointed out something about someone taking 2 attacks if they were a simple action and how you can't do that anymore, but perhaps they were in the wrong and I wasn't and I misread something. I mean it sounds off since I don't see the point in differentiating SS or SA anymore if they can both only attack once in a round.)

You can use a free action, to attack multipletargets, as long as the gun is at least un SA mode and firing multiple shots (i.e. SA-Burst, which is firing 3 shots with a SA weapon, as a complex action). You then simply calcutlate the pool and split it. I guess you can also use the free action to attack multiple targets, if you're using two guns instead. Pools are still split. Main reason for using two guns may be for mixed setups (i.e. ammo) and greater overall ammo capacity... else... it is rather void, unless ofcourse, you have crazy ammounts of dice, in your pool, to begin with.

The fire modes themselves are in a way multi attack options while that doesn't exist for Melee weapons, hence the rules wording.

So yes, RAW you can make three "attacks" as a Multiattack if your skill is 6 with a sword or yo can do a pair of Semi Auto, Bursts or Full Autos with a gun in each hand. Putting multiple bullets in the air is now defined by is own Attack Action and you pick the ones from the list that fit. Swinging an axe with rapid fury in a flurry of blows is Multiattack to Cap of half skill.

Multiple attacks can "solve" some "problems" a character might have when his dice pool becomes too large for his limit. Especially if we imagine some kind of adept gun slinger with karma.

In SR5 you can't .
You can shoot both SA Revolver in your first simple Action with Split Pool and Multiattack
But You can't : shoot right first simple Action-- shoot left second simple Action
because You can make only 1 Attack Action per Iniphase and after the first Attack ....well You might shoot in the Air to threaten the Target but You can't attack him a second time because ....RAW (in the German BBB its Page 166)

with a sad Dance
Medicineman

Not true! You can fire two different guns, even Single Shot firearms, one after the other via the Multiple Attacks action.

Emphasis added is mine.


Additionally, the rules for recoil with Single Shot weapons (p. 176) specifically state that you suffer recoil when firing two of them at the same time with the Multiple Attacks action.

~Umi

Which means effectively loosing a simple Action by using a complex Action when You could just use just a simple Action
AND you have to split Pool !
and its not : Shooting left Revolver Simple Action- Shooting right revolver second Action because you can't switch targets or aim at two different Targets
Its rather a : use Gun first Left and then Right as a Multiattack (while you could rather use both Guns simultaneously its the same Rules)
This
http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/the...;w=630&zc=1
or this
http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/.a/6a00d...96220970d-500wi
is not possible in SR5
( Please prove my wrong. I really want to do this ALSO in SR5 it ails me even more than the WiFi Blooper)


with a very inefficient Dance
Medicineman

What I am not quit followinmg with, is where the complex action comes into play... You use a free action to do multiple attacks with one simple action. They still have to split their pool though. So the way to be efficient with two guns is to have one of these freakish dicepools you sadly get to accumulate in SR5. The latter being what I really hate about SR5.

Sorry Shooting two Guns left-right is two simple Actions, not a complex one.
The Problem stays the same.
You use two simple Actions when you can do the same in just one sA

with only one Dance
Medicineman

How are you using two simple actions... you are only allowed one attack-action in this case it is a simple one. One simple action, even if you attack with two guns, using the multiple attack free action. That is, why you are also splitting the pool.

This tactic is only viable, once you are very skilled with the guns in question. Then again... it makes sense...sort of.

don't ask me
Its Umidori who says you can Use :
Left hand first Gun (first simple Action) -Right Hand second Gun (2nd simple Action) as a Multi Action.
I say its wasted because You could also do : first simple Action shoot both Guns as a Multiaction ....second simple acton Fart (or anything else as long as its no Attac )

HouGH!
Medicineman

I see... and I agree, as you can not use two simple actions to attack, no matter what (at least not on the same action-phase).

Also it is important to vent gas.

It's really confusing when the two of you have the same avatar, btw

@Topic: Two-weapon fighting is so rarely worth it that I usually skip the investment of Ambidexterity. The -2 will not matter much when ambushing an opponent, and straight up firefights do not require akimbo style shooting.

( I was here first )
Two-Gun (even 4-Gun fighting with a Nartaki) used to be Awesome in 4A if you know the Rules, though it wasn't always advisable . Its a shame that CGL "closed this door" in SR5

with an awesome Dance
Medicineman

Also there is an elaborate discordian plan behind this...

Ambidex really isn't worth the Karma, my character simply has it for reasons of consistency.