As I am a slight histroy buff, I was noticing something when I took a look at one of my books on the history of the Russian empire today. During the decline of the Romanov family line, around the time of the first World War, you had a situation very similar to what's happening in Tir Tan in the Shadowrun timeline right now.

Russia was one of the last absolute monarchies on the planet at the time, and the Tzar's right to absolute rule was being challenged on every front by revolt and revolution. The working class was no longer willing to serve an absolute monarch. The Tzar at the time, Nicholi Alexander Romonof, was forced to set up a limited form of representation, the Russian Duma. However, when the assembly demanded radical reform, Nicholi responded by dissolving the entire thing. After more than 30 years of enforced industrilzation, Russia's poor were poorer than ever. On Jan 9th, 1905, a massive protest marched on the Tzar's Winter Palace, in a non violent demonstration, asking for things to improve. The Palace Guards responded by opening fire on the crowd.

Meanwhile, in the Tir, the great numbers of elves are feeling a similar economic crunch, becoming just as destitue as the Serfs of Russia. They are becoming more and more willing to take matters into their own hands. The High Prince had really done squat to resolve the problem, excpet toss the people a bone in the form of the next Right of Progression. The Star Chamber is completely ignored by the Council of Princess. Mass protests and strikes rocked the country in 2059, only to be shut down with a brutality that would have done Ivan the Terrible proud.

Really, the only thing that the Tir needs is its own Lennin-esq figure who's willing to remake the country in his own radical image. The upshot of all of this is that I perdict that the Tir will experiance its own revolution within about 10 years of game time at max. And it will come so fast and so sudden that not even Surehand will see it coming before its too late.

....Course that's just my opinion at least.

That's Lenin . And...who's the Tir's answer to Rasputin?

I'd have to say Harlequin considering how many smart ass comments he made about the country in the Tir T sourcebook.

He just doesn't seem ruthless enough, nor does he actually seem like he wants to take down the Tir. My top choice, however, would be Niall O'Conner, just because he can seem to speak the truth, is elven, and actually would enjoy some support from your average elvish guy, or even someone else in the Shadow community.

Don

Good point.

If you're just looking for a crazy guy in a position of power who has the greatest chance of being murdered a dozen different ways, I'd say that ork prince (I can't remember his name, dammit) would be a prime candidate.

Larry Zincan?

I would hardly say he's the "crazy guy". If anything he's the one Prince who is actually trying to do something for the common man in the country, who is in a state of exile beacuse the establishment didn't care for his ideas.

Rasputin hardly fit that category.

Bah. Green Lucifer!

Or it can be a plot by Alichia to finally get back on the throne. I could actually imagine someone like her doing that.

Actually imagine if that actually went down, and Tir Taingre goes into a revolution. There's a war right there, with California trying to get Redding back, Tir's neighbors trying to get their share, Aztech willing to help anyone trying to eliminate the Tir, while Tir na Nog probably trying to send in path aids to help do "peace-keeping", which will probably make it even worse.

Don

Laughing Man's remained oddly silent about the recent uprising in TT, even though the name of the organization seems to bring back memories for certain princes...my money's on Harlequin being behind the whole thing. That's also an obvious choice...

The Abstruse One

Rasputin didn't want the downfall of the Russian state. He was a big supporter of the tsar, actually. For Harlequin to be a close approximation of Rasputin, he would need to be a) widely known by the populace and suspected of using Surehand as a puppet ruler and b) hated by the aristocracy.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what the Corporate Courts rules against overthrowing governments are, exactly, but I'm sure they'd make an exception if a workers' state came into being, or at the very least they'd stop it from happening (nothing against helping nations stay in power, is there?).

It was one hell of a situation when it happened in Russia. They got invaded by 19 countries at once, and half their army went White.

One thing that the Californians have to think about is Saito. Now, Saito striking North is not inconcievable, but I doubt the communities in between them would like it.

Also, we have to remember someone very important. Hestaby. I mean, which ever side she jumps to (or, more likely, her own side) will get a huge boost. And she wouldn't like Saito coming on up, that's for sure. She already stopped one invasion. I think she can do a bunch of corp/deserters/Humanis scum

I don't see the Tir - Russia analogy holding.

The majority of Tir's residents came from democratic countries. They left their homes to escape prejudice to the so called land of metahuman freedom. Now that they're Tir citizens all that democratic tradition baggage they brought with them is rubbing raw against the monarchy. This is particularly bad for non-elves since they obviously are second class citizens.

Never deal with a Dragon...what is a revolution supposed to do to neutralize Lofwyr and his assets? If trouble started you don't think he'd drop the hammer on it (so to speak)? Someone commented on Tir Na Nog sending in "peacekeeping" assets...rebellion might be the key for Saeder Krupp to get into the Tir. Dragons and Elves...I don't think the Tir needs anymore instigators to cause problems...there's plenty there already.

lofwyr has a vested interest in removing the current Tir government from power. any revolution would more likely benefit from lofwyr's involvement, though they might not like what they end up with.

Hetsaby seems to have a vested interest in helping the Rinelle ke'Tesra. Given Hetsaby's position as prince she is much more dangerous than Lofwyr. As for Lofwyr's attempts to force his way into the Tir corporate scene. Last I heard all you needed was to get on one prince's bad side and the cost of doing business in Tir goes way up.

The fact that the Tir is itching for a Revolution doesn't say it has to be a Socialist one (even though a communist Tir will annoy the heck out of some corps, which will make th situation more interesting game-wise, especially if the direct assault option won't work. Shadowrunners will have tons of work in a second cold war, win' they?).

As always, the revolution might turn out quite different from what would be commonly expected - think of Iran. The workers got rid of the Shah (sp?), just to place religion in his place. On a second thought this might be an interesting model to rely on for the Tir revolution. Just think of the UB-equivalet taking over the Tir

Or the Orkish minority doing something nasty against the Elven overlords. Not an all-out revolution, they lack the orkpower for that (but on the other hand, so did the NAN ), but mass-scale terrorism comes to mind. A little bit of FAB-III will have a nice effect on some of the super-mage Tir nobility, don't you think so? And there are enough corps which will be ready to supply the stuff.

i am showing my total cluelessness here. but where did all this info come from??? last thing i had on TT was the TT sourcebook in 2ed

i'm always interested in bantering between immortals, so if someone could help me out here.

and personally i don't think harly cares what the hell happens in the tir or any other government for that matter.

Read Shadows of North America (aka SoNA).

damn. i thought you'd say that. fanpro isn't going to come out with anything before i'm 30 and i had cought up on most everything else.

my thanks.

he certainly gives a damn about the government of the Tir; it's one of the larger concentrations of pure power on the globe. the sheer magnitude of some of the Tir's political players makes TT politics worth paying attention to.

They set up a multi-decenal plan and used their pure power to take over Oregon Who'd take them seriously after that ?

i honestly doubt that as an individual, harly is taken as enough of a threat by the tir to warrent actions against him.

and so long as they leave him alone, he'll leave them alone.

hey have agreed that metahumanity isn't ready for the big news flash and that info is about the only threat harly poses to the tir's power.

harly is one of the biggest proponents of keeping the ED history secret, as shown by multiple posts throughout the SR books, dating back to PANA (if not earlier). and dunk, who was a proponent of pulling back the curtains and revealing everything, took harley as enough of a serious threat that he wasn't willing to risk doing it against harley's wishes. granted, there was probably some mutual respect and no small amount of dialogue involved, but harley made some distinctly threat-oriented comments in at least one place (can't recall exactly where), and dunk seemed willing to concede his point in the face of those threats.

i think the thing about harley is, he doesn't give a flying fuck. most immortal players, they play a very deep game and never get directly involved--direct involvement means direct exposure to risk, and it only takes being unlucky once and you're out of the game permanently. players like harley, aina, and lofwyr are dangerous because, in immortal terms, they have some kind of psychotic deathwish. lofwyr and aina have a history of getting up close and personal with their enemies, and harley jumped into the middle of a ritual that would've opened the gateway to something that could destroy him without even noticing. in terms of human lifespans, that's like playing russian roulette every morning before breakfast.

which means that harley does pose enough of a threat to the TT gummint--or anyone who torques him off--that they'll definitely want to watch out for him. harley is capable of throwing everything he's got against them, with nothing in reserve. when a human decides that he's either going to accomplish something or die trying, it's a bad thing to be in that human's way. when an immortal elf decides that he's either going to accomplish something or die trying...

Course, he might get his wish without achieving anything. Happens more often than not to people with those kinds of wishes, you know.