Yet again our group with changing GMs has to ask the forum for it's opinion on a slightly unclear rule:
p.310 SR5 says: "Improved Sense
This power gives you sensory improvements not
normally possessed by your character’s metatype.
These improvements may include low-light or thermographic
vision, high or low frequency hearing, and
so on. Any sense enhancement provided by cyberware
or bioware can be provided by this power, unless
that enhancement either gives you bonus dice to
Perception Tests or needs wireless to work (or both)."
Ignoring for a moment, that this vague ruling allows an adept to possess a qi-smartlink (you don't actually need wireless to use one), we are wondering if this includes active ultrasound as a possible new sense.
Pro argument:
- its available as a cyberware/headware augmentation
- it does not need wireless
- low/high frequency hearing is explicitly named as available
Contra argument:
- Active ultrasound needs a sound emitter which this power doesn't seem to provide
- Ultrasound is headware, not eyeware or earware like the rest of the sense enhancements
Contra-contra argument:
- There is no separate emitter for ultrasound available, its always one sensor with emitter and receiver
Side argument: Can different sensors be integrated into helmets with capacity?
The rules only talk about "accessories" without defining what that actually includes (only eye and earware + trodes, or also sensors?)
So, what's your opinion?
Full Version: Ultrasound for Adepts?
Adepts should already have a sound emitter, unless a mute. I allow it to provide both forms, passive and active. If you fell that is too much, try requiring voice control as well to act as an emitter.
Yes, it will work even without specific sound emission. In principle snapping fingers would be plenty.
The counter argument I could see (although I do not subscribe to it) is that ultrasound is really a computational element based on auditory information, but the counter-counter argument is that blind people (and even a few sighted ones) have trained themselves to do exactly that.
So my vote is that it should be explicitly permitted.
The counter argument I could see (although I do not subscribe to it) is that ultrasound is really a computational element based on auditory information, but the counter-counter argument is that blind people (and even a few sighted ones) have trained themselves to do exactly that.
So my vote is that it should be explicitly permitted.
4E augmentation had some bioware that let you hear ultrasonic and another piece that let you emit ultrasonic. Going by that same logic I'd say that you can take improved sense to hear ultrasonic but if you want to actively be able to ping things you'd need to take the voice control power as well.
QUOTE (Koekepan @ Dec 5 2013, 03:16 PM) 
The counter argument I could see (although I do not subscribe to it) is that ultrasound is really a computational element based on auditory information, but the counter-counter argument is that blind people (and even a few sighted ones) have trained themselves to do exactly that.
Also bats and dolphins.
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 5 2013, 02:38 PM)
Also bats and dolphins.
Bahh... Flyers and Swimmers... what do they know?
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 6 2013, 12:32 AM)
Bahh... Flyers and Swimmers... what do they know?
they know how to make an surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double backwards summersault through a hoop while whistling the star spangled banner
furthermore, i remember the echolot power from SR4 and the same ability from SR3 . .
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Dec 5 2013, 03:57 PM)
they know how to make an surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double backwards summersault through a hoop while whistling the star spangled banner
Now they're just showing off...
Now... this is crazy... but... what if they were actually trying to warn us of impending doom at the hands of a thoroughly unpleasant technologically advanced alien species?
No, wait! Stop, hear me out! I'm not crazy! Stop posting links to pictures of that History Channel guy with the hair! Look, I can prove it to you, I just need you to come listen to my fishbowl! No, I mean, when I tap it and it chimes you can hear voices! Wait, that came out wrong! They're trying to tell us something vitally important, for goodness sake! We're all in very grave danger! The end of the world is coming! You have to believe me! It has to be true, the dolphins told me!
~Umi
No, wait! Stop, hear me out! I'm not crazy! Stop posting links to pictures of that History Channel guy with the hair! Look, I can prove it to you, I just need you to come listen to my fishbowl! No, I mean, when I tap it and it chimes you can hear voices! Wait, that came out wrong! They're trying to tell us something vitally important, for goodness sake! We're all in very grave danger! The end of the world is coming! You have to believe me! It has to be true, the dolphins told me!
~Umi
I'm not crazy! The whole world has gone crazy! A world that needs to have instructions printed on a pack of toothpicks has to be crazy! I am the only normal one here! I undertstand! That's why my house is built inside out!
If real world humans can do this, then I don't see why not to allow adepts to do it with ultrasound. Maybe only if they have voice control.
The way I would treat it is similar to how the bioware works. One improved sense would give them the equivalent of the echolocation bioware. Adding another enhanced sense equivalent to hearing enhancement, and taking voice control, would give them the equivalent of a true ultrasound system - just like someone with the echolocation bioware, vocal range enhancer, and hearing enhancement.
Also, I would let them mix and match adept powers with their cyberware and/or bioware equivalents to get this. In other words, if an adept had echolocation as an improved sense, the increased sensitivity cybernetic modification, and a vocal range enhancer, I would allow it to work.
Also, I would let them mix and match adept powers with their cyberware and/or bioware equivalents to get this. In other words, if an adept had echolocation as an improved sense, the increased sensitivity cybernetic modification, and a vocal range enhancer, I would allow it to work.
QUOTE (Chrome Head @ Dec 5 2013, 08:25 PM)
If real world humans can do this, then I don't see why not to allow adepts to do it with ultrasound. Maybe only if they have voice control.
YMMV, I saw a blind guy trying to use echolocation with the aid of a clicker who walked the wrong way down a hallway and knocked over a large metal trashcan. It was actually humorous, but had to be a little embarrassing for him.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 6 2013, 05:21 AM)
YMMV, I saw a blind guy trying to use echolocation with the aid of a clicker who walked the wrong way down a hallway and knocked over a large metal trashcan. It was actually humorous, but had to be a little embarrassing for him.
Obviously, not an adept.
Corner case and I'd say GM call until they get the magic/adept book out. Personally, I'm fine with it.
We have resolved the matter:
Although voice control explicitly does not allow ultra sound creation, we added it as a house rule.
Another solution would be the use of sensor tags to generate the necessary sound for the echoes. This will become also very useful if you don't want to betray your position in a room filled with thermo smoke: Just place a bunch of sensor tags all over the place and change position often...
Although voice control explicitly does not allow ultra sound creation, we added it as a house rule.
Another solution would be the use of sensor tags to generate the necessary sound for the echoes. This will become also very useful if you don't want to betray your position in a room filled with thermo smoke: Just place a bunch of sensor tags all over the place and change position often...
QUOTE (Jack_Spade @ Dec 7 2013, 04:23 PM)
We have resolved the matter:
Although voice control explicitly does not allow ultra sound creation, we added it as a house rule.
Another solution would be the use of sensor tags to generate the necessary sound for the echoes. This will become also very useful if you don't want to betray your position in a room filled with thermo smoke: Just place a bunch of sensor tags all over the place and change position often...
Although voice control explicitly does not allow ultra sound creation, we added it as a house rule.
Another solution would be the use of sensor tags to generate the necessary sound for the echoes. This will become also very useful if you don't want to betray your position in a room filled with thermo smoke: Just place a bunch of sensor tags all over the place and change position often...
Ultrasound isn't available as a sense enhancement -- it's not part of the Vision or Audio Enhancements. It's either a sensor or an implanted sensor.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Dec 7 2013, 02:42 PM)
Ultrasound isn't available as a sense enhancement -- it's not part of the Vision or Audio Enhancements. It's either a sensor or an implanted sensor.
Except that the first paragraph specifically mentions high- or low-frequency hearing, under which Ultrasound qualifies. I'd also say that the ultrasound headware counts as a sensory enhancement provided by cyberware.
QUOTE (Achsin @ Dec 7 2013, 05:24 PM)
Except that the first paragraph specifically mentions high- or low-frequency hearing, under which Ultrasound qualifies. I'd also say that the ultrasound headware counts as a sensory enhancement provided by cyberware.
Unless it means being able to hear dog whistles. The long and short of it is Ultrasound has a rating associated, and there's no mechanism for establishing a rating via the adept power. It's a New Thing, not an improvement.
aside from in older editions an adept always got the highest level of a sensory enhancement if he used his power-points to emulate something that came with levels in the cyber version.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Dec 7 2013, 03:42 PM)
Ultrasound isn't available as a sense enhancement -- it's not part of the Vision or Audio Enhancements. It's either a sensor or an implanted sensor.
Is that a 5th Ed thing? IIRC, 4th Ed had Ultrasound as a vision enhancement.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 8 2013, 05:45 AM)
Is that a 5th Ed thing? IIRC, 4th Ed had Ultrasound as a vision enhancement.
For devices such as contacts or glasses, sure. Implanted cybereyes didn't have ultrasound as an option.
It was a vision enhancement if you got it for glasses/goggles, headware if you got it as cyberware. I wouldn't really classify either it or radar as enhanced senses - they were more like sensors that created a computer-generated topological map overlay for you. An adept version would be more "organic", which is why I suggested the echolocation/hearing enhancement/voice control combination to get it.
Rather than ultrasound, I'd go with echo-location as an equivalent, translating sensory information one would gain through hearing. (including high or low frequency)
QUOTE
Ultrasound: Visibility shifts one row up, ignore Light conditions (within 50 meters)
It's not exactly reliant on rating.
At least in SR4, ultrasound, unlike radar sensors, does not have a rating.
QUOTE (sr4 faq)
http://old.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml
Improved Sense works like the Enhanced Sense Critter Power (p. 205, Running Wild), and the relevant rules are reproduced below:
Many enhanced senses provide additional senses that the adept did not have before. These senses are treated as natural, unaugmented senses when determining modifiers for Perception Tests. When an adept has enhanced senses for a sense that it would normally possess, such as Enhanced Hearing, it receives a +2 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests. An enhanced sense may also provide the adept with new uses for skills. Enhanced Scent, for example, allows an adept to track a person or prey by scent alone. Scent tracking uses Tracking + Intuition. Thresholds and dice pool modifiers are provided.
Enhanced senses include a wide spectrum of abilities beyond normal metahuman limits, such as Direction Sense. If the sense has not been described by an existing power, they can also be used to mimic cyberware implants or natural abilities of critters not covered. In these cases, gamemasters should determine the exact abilities and limitations of a specific sense when introducing it to the game.
When an adept buys an Improved Sense on a power that has multiple levels (e.g., vision enhancement or sound filter) are they purchased as levels or does the adept gain the max value for just 0.25 points?
The effective rating of the power is equivalent to the maximum rating of the equivalent cyberware or bioware implant.
Improved Sense works like the Enhanced Sense Critter Power (p. 205, Running Wild), and the relevant rules are reproduced below:
Many enhanced senses provide additional senses that the adept did not have before. These senses are treated as natural, unaugmented senses when determining modifiers for Perception Tests. When an adept has enhanced senses for a sense that it would normally possess, such as Enhanced Hearing, it receives a +2 dice pool modifier to Perception Tests. An enhanced sense may also provide the adept with new uses for skills. Enhanced Scent, for example, allows an adept to track a person or prey by scent alone. Scent tracking uses Tracking + Intuition. Thresholds and dice pool modifiers are provided.
Enhanced senses include a wide spectrum of abilities beyond normal metahuman limits, such as Direction Sense. If the sense has not been described by an existing power, they can also be used to mimic cyberware implants or natural abilities of critters not covered. In these cases, gamemasters should determine the exact abilities and limitations of a specific sense when introducing it to the game.
When an adept buys an Improved Sense on a power that has multiple levels (e.g., vision enhancement or sound filter) are they purchased as levels or does the adept gain the max value for just 0.25 points?
The effective rating of the power is equivalent to the maximum rating of the equivalent cyberware or bioware implant.
So yeah, adepts with batman sonar are a-ok.
One way to look at it without referencing SR4 material...
The meager power point cost spent to gain the ability to perceive ultrasound... Is just that... Perceive.
It would be wise to clarify that unless the character can emit ultrasound, treat it as if the character has a rating 6 passive mode ultrasonic sensor.
To emit, voice control seems more suited to be able to broadcast.
Or get creative, like having a trained pet bat...
The meager power point cost spent to gain the ability to perceive ultrasound... Is just that... Perceive.
It would be wise to clarify that unless the character can emit ultrasound, treat it as if the character has a rating 6 passive mode ultrasonic sensor.
To emit, voice control seems more suited to be able to broadcast.
Or get creative, like having a trained pet bat...
Or a cheap handheld ultrasound emitter?
~Umi
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ Dec 15 2013, 11:33 AM)
Or a cheap handheld ultrasound emitter?
~Umi
~Umi
Silly talk... *shakes Head*
QUOTE (Umidori @ Dec 16 2013, 04:33 AM)
Or a cheap handheld ultrasound emitter?
~Umi
~Umi
Or being near your average car, shopping mall, etc where motion sensors are installed.
QUOTE
Motion sensor: This sensor uses a mix of ultrasound and low-power infrared (snip)
Just for the record, in SR4 there are two listed metagenic qualities:
Biosonar (essentially biological ultrasound) was a 25BP cost which allowed you to broadcast and process ultrasound into images.
Broad Auditory Spectrum (Ability to hear infra or ultrasound) was a 5BP cost. The second does not allow you to "map" things
Similarly as mentioned before, in Bioware, in order to approximate ultrasound you were required to obtain two pieces of bioware: Echolocation which allowed you to process sounds spatiallly and Vocal Range Enhancer which let you generate the ultrasound (or as Umi said, you can just get a handheld ultrasound emitter…) At least back in 4th, it was kinda a demonstration of "things Cyber and technology can actually do better than flesh and blood" but I'm not really sure how that translated in 5th.
Biosonar (essentially biological ultrasound) was a 25BP cost which allowed you to broadcast and process ultrasound into images.
Broad Auditory Spectrum (Ability to hear infra or ultrasound) was a 5BP cost. The second does not allow you to "map" things
Similarly as mentioned before, in Bioware, in order to approximate ultrasound you were required to obtain two pieces of bioware: Echolocation which allowed you to process sounds spatiallly and Vocal Range Enhancer which let you generate the ultrasound (or as Umi said, you can just get a handheld ultrasound emitter…) At least back in 4th, it was kinda a demonstration of "things Cyber and technology can actually do better than flesh and blood" but I'm not really sure how that translated in 5th.
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