I have a decker who wants to code some of his own stuff. Modify it or other wise. I was pretty sure there were rules in SR5 for writing one's own programs within the core book but I just can't find it. I have seen the build and repair table in the skill section and unfortunately it's not very specific. Help me find the rules?

I am not sure you can (at least on my re-reading of the rules).

The Software skill comes up a few places, mostly related to certain types of matrix tests (like Disarm Data Bomb).

Additionally, a technomancer can learn Complex Forms by making a software tests and studying one for a number of hours.

Beyond saving a few hundred nuyen in hacking programs, what is he interested in programming?

If he wants to program actual programs, I say let him go for it; just have a discussion with him as to what the program is capable of doing (don't let him program a "Black Hammer v3.0 that gives him +10 to his Attack Attribute, for example).

I don't recall seeing any. In 4th edition the rules for writing your own software consisted of just one table and a paragraph on pg 228 of the core book and advanced rules in the Unwired book (pgs 118-120). You could just adapt those but really, the software is so cheap in 5th edition, why bother with writing your own? From a fluff standpoint, you could just say the money he spent represents the time spent coding and just say he wrote his own.
I imagine there will be more detailed rules for writing your own programs in the advanced matrix book, when ever that comes out.

Talking to the player he says there is a disconnect between his character who is a hard core coder and the gaps in the rules.

1. It feels strange that coding ones own stuff costs money when functionally there is no difference between acquiring the programs and making them yourself.
2. He also said that if other characters in Shadowrun can write code and sell him code he'd also like to be able to write code himself and have hacker rivalries. "No you don't want Sam's worthless plebian code. Here chum you try my hammer program you'll see it's wiz."
3. Most of the hacking programs are restricted. He was thinking that creates the perfect market for him to sell some of his own code.

Like everything else, you're gonna have to wait for the splat books.

"Ooh! They revamped hacking! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."
"Ooh! They revamped alchemy! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."
"Ooh! They revamped combat! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."
"Ooh! They revamped character creation! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."
"Ooh! They revamped the economy! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."
"Ooh! They revamped rigging and drones! Except, I want to do X and there aren't any rules for it."

SR5! Buy it today! Then buy some other books in 6 to 24 months' time to fill in the gaping holes!

~Umi

The "gaping holes" you're describing is how every SR product ever has existed. The core rules are the basics. Just the intro to get you in. If you want super cool advanced options, nifty races, SOTA 'ware, and amazing metamagics, then you wait for the other main books. Hell, in SR5 they actually brought initiation into the core rules, something they've never done before. So really, stop acting surprised or thinking this makes SR5 somehow inferior to other versions because of it.

Back on topic, the rules in the core book are vague and will require some handwaving for you to allow him to write and sell his own code. The SR5 matrix book, if it follows patterns of previous versions, should expand on that and bring in all of the details and advanced options.

It sounds more like your player would like to earn money on the side from his secondary skills. Perhaps the rigger makes some money chauffeuring people around high risk neighborhoods. Or the face is a hostess at a high-end restaurant.

Here's what I would recommend: point out there are likely 15 billion metahumans in the world now, and 95% of them are willing to program for cheaper than him. If he wants to make money on the side he should be doing independent datasteals and things of that nature and fencing them on his own.

Sorry, no coffee yet today. From what you said I interpreted your player saying "I'd like to make extra money for minimal risk for a skill my character already has". That's fine, but the amount of money he's interested in finding is going to be minimal. Does he keep his hacking programs from character creation, or does he buy a new one each month "when the algorithims are upgraded?" The prices in the book are retail- the programmer isn't getting 80 nuyen per "browse" program they write. They make cents on the dollar, if that. Is he even *good* enough to write programs people are willing to buy? My guess would be most "hacking" programs would require a skill somewhere in the 9-12 range; otherwise, what's the point? If the very best people on the planet aren't writing them, than some jackass who wants to make some money on the side is going to swoop in and undercut their corporate profits.

Besides, if he's writing programs for a living, why is he shadowrunning? He's rapidly turning into an NPC.

I would think about how this stuff works. There will be Hackingprograms that are created bey professional studios (both legal and illegal). These Studios, spend quite a lot of time on their professional grade software, both pre- and post-release. Once the Software is up and running, it needs support, fixes, updates ... security holes are being fixed, new ones are found etc. Also it is important to have a name and / or network in distribution of that stuff to actually make any money, that is worth metioning.

With all this I would simply allow the player to take th negative quality "Day.Job" (I'd simply translate it from SR4). The money he gets, is the money he earns by coding, maintainig and distributing software, as long as his character spends the amounts of time with his business, that the quality demands. Should he fail to do so, he misses milestones, gets patches and updates out to late (if at all) and so on. All of this will reflect on his name as a coder and on how much people like and trust in his software... or if at all. If he messes up... no money, maybe people will want refundsm if he utterly fails, no one will want his software anymore... at least for a while. And so on...

Perhaps the other members of his group should become in tune with the office politics of his programming studio, or how someone keeps neglecting to kick in on the communal soykaf fund.

-DrZ

Ummm... Initiation was available in the SR4 Core Rules too (Page 198 in SR4A; Page 189 in SR4). It was expanded upon in Street Magic, to be sure, but it was available as a base option in the Core Book.
Besides, SR5 IS inferior, just not because of their publishing Schedule. *shrug*

The player is interested in the "my code is better than your code" hacking rivalries. I guess it just irks him that some one some where is selling restricted programs. Orginially I opened the thread because I was looking for rules. Now that I see coding rules are absent, how about some advice?

Because of his interest in code I want to run as a subplot a hacking rivalry. The decker player is running the shadows to pay the bills but his real desire is to shame his plebian rivals and prove that his code is the best. It's not enough to best them in cybercombat. He wants people to view his own code as superior to his rivals. How would you set this up?

Double post

Are you thinking of mass distributed 'software' or hard coded, runable utilities?

Any one can take the sourcecode as an example for a particular use (connectivity, GUI, Fonts, etc...) and get it to work.
It just takes time. Programming is still and will always be in the hobbyist realm as you have to create and solve your own problems, on your own time, to be any good.
What 'studios' do is give a inroad to all other developers and their resources to make a distributable product available to billions of users.
Everyone at IBM to give an example, isn't necessarily a genius. They just have a massive technical base to work with.

In shadowrun the problem is how; to get past the corporate, monolithic, anti-societial, matrix-barrons who abuse the users with/as applications. Not how to make the next skillssoft a 'hit'..... *LOL*

But thats a good roleplaying angle too BTW corporate programmer. Safer and funner Skillsofts that taste like banannas..... *LOL*

Check out SR4's Unwired it gives some tests and thresholds for coding programs. But since most programmes don't have ratings any more some customization will be required...

Still there is something between big studios and lone hobbyists.

Also I can imagine, that there will be a black market for hacking programs and those will include ware written by lone programmers / hackers, by smaller studios (maybe owned by crime) and stolen code. Also programming is one thing making money of it another - sofar I understood, that the player wanted his character to make money with his code.

@ OP - For the contest thing you are after O would use different angles... writing code may be one of them. Use extended [Logic + Software] tests or maybe (or mabe not) add an intuition based throw if he wants to be very creative and think up threshold and time factors. If available, SR4 "Uwired" may give some inspiration (like it has been pointed out.

The (in my eyes) better or more fun part should be actual hacking sidequests. Leaving marks in challanging spaces and daring others to do better, reverse engineering the competitions sourcecode and writing viruses specifically tailored to them... making a dirty hack and framing the competition and so on...

How kind of you to inform me that what I'm talking about is something entirely different than what I'm actually talking about. Yes, I'm complaining about "cool advanced options" and the like. Clearly I can't have a valid point about the core systems themselves! They're flawless, as everyone knows, and any complaints about them are in fact actually complaints about entirely different things!

Read some of my threads sometimes. Like the one where I try to make sense of the Alchemy rules to try to do what are really entirely reasonable things to expect to be able to do with alchemy, but that the people creating the system just didn't think through enough. Basic stuff, like "how do Sustained spells work as preparations?" and "how do Manipulation spells that require caster inputs work as preparations?" and "how do Contact Triggers not go off in your goddamn hand while you make them?".

I'm not talking about "advanced options". I'm talking basic, everyday usages of new systems. The rules as they currently exist basically allow you employ only the most basic functions of many different game systems.

~Umi

I would consider coding programs to be a vital function for a decker, especially since they seem to be going away from script kiddes and hacker/other specialty hybrids to make deckers their own "class" again. Even in SR4, they said that pirated software was basically the new norm, and that no self-respecting hacker would use someone else's code (or at least, they wouldn't admit to it).

Do they actually not have rules for writing your own programs? Check out the skill description for the software skill itself; if they have any rules for coding software, this is where they would (hopefully) give you a page number.

And of course, the easiest way to simulate a hacker rivalry is... use the scene from "Hackers", where they try to resolve a rivalry. In other words, a series of short runs to determine who is "Elite".

-DrZ

The following is coming from a real life Programmer and long time SR player.

Reasons to write your own programs (RP reasons):
- You are responsible for the bugs and can fix them when you need them to be fixed.
- The software does not call home, does not steal your data, etc.
- Customization. One piece of code can do multiple tasks in a way that is not possible with scripts.
- Synchronization. (Maybe not necessary in SR but I run my own cloud.)

Ho I will handle things when my players ask for this:
- Program cost represents snacks & beer during the months spent programming.
- Expensive software is too difficult to tackle alone. If you create a program and it takes you 6 months - it's outdated.
- You're not "unhackable". Large programs/operating systems still have bugs and backdoors.
- You have to keep your code up to date. (Like in SR3 or 4, don't remember.)
- Random bugs unexpected behavior. Apply a +2 or -2 modifier from time to time.

Sadly, my friends like to ignore the Matrix altogether. Perhaps that will change with SR5.

Yeah, I am doing some programming myself and I usually play characters, that have nothing to do with the matrix whatsoever.