SR4 social skills had major problems.

The dice pool bloat was part of the problem. Too many things added to social dice pools, and stacked with each other. The bigger problem, though, was that when changing from TNs to dice pool modifiers, situational TN modifiers were changed directly to much more surmountable dice pool penalties. Rather than a +6 to the TN, faces only suffered a -6 to their dice pool, something they could easily steamroll over with their own inflated dice pools. High Willpower was also weakened by this, giving someone a mere extra success or two rather than making the face's job a lot more difficult. Furthermore, the skill + Attribute mechanic meant that to resist social skills, you needed to have social skills; you couldn't be an antisocial curmudgeon and be a hard sell.

The other part of the problem was that social skills were too vague. What happens when someone wins a test? What can the losing character realistically be compelled to do, and what sort of things are outside the scope of the skill no matter how many successes you get? What happens if the character is a mark that has previously been fooled (most real-life con men keep moving for this very reason)? Purely by the rules, the face is like Harry the Hat, able to con the same characters again and again. What about obsessive fans or creepy stalkers? How much agency does someone have when they have been successfully conned or intimidated? The vagueness of the rules combined with bloated dice pools to create a lot of potential problems.


Now, I already know SR5 has social limits, and rules for using leadership in combat. But what I want to know is, have they made anything any clearer, or set any firmer boundaries for what can or cannot be done with social skills? Have they fixed any of the structural problems that SR4 social skills had? Do they have more/better examples of social skills in use?

Hm, after a first glance it´s more or less the same (besides social limits (if they ever play a role) and defined combat usage). Lets take the classic example "Con" (one of the more interesting social skills for a runner):



followed by


[list goes on, its basically the same list as in every other edition]

and some explanations, that you should roleplay and what etiquette means.

SYL

I've played about 6 sessions of SR5 and I have definitely noticed that social tests are not very user friendly. It's difficult to remember the entire table. I have also noticed that it's very easy to play a shaman who is also a very strong Face which seems to sideline players who just want to play a face/conman. Finally I too have noticed that in order for NPCs to adequately resist a test they must also be conmen or have substantial modifiers.

I enjoy how they changed environmental modifiers for perception tests and shooting (only the highest modifier applies) and I've been wondering if the social system should do like wise. While also resist from combined mental attributes. (Willpower + Intuition for example)

It's difficult to come up with good social rules. Too much of them and you end up with a social minigame no one will use because it gets in the way of the roleplay, and too few of them and you end up with "roll some dice and wing it".

I offer two alternate social rules in Style Over Substance (link in sig) but I have to admit that I don't really use them myself...

We have tried the Fate RPG approach to social skill rolls. Basically, all characters/NPCs acquire a third damage track for social "damage", which is 8+1/2 Cha. Successful skill rolls do net hits "damage" to these boxes, and once they are full, the other side loses the social combat.

I like that idea!

Sounds similar to the social defense and 'social attacks' in ED3.

Unless I'm remembering another game.

Yeah, I guess if SR5 didn't fix the main problems, the only options are either to use house rules, or to keep the stats in mind but roleplay everything out other than fairly simple, quantifiable rolls (fast-talking past a guard, picking up a slumming suit, etc.). It's a pity, though; they had a chance to really fix social skills (SR4A's dice pool limits were not very meaningful, and didn't address what I felt were the core problems with social skills).