Weren't rifle grenades in one of the older books?
Anyone got a reference I could use?
Full Version: Rifle Grenades
There were grenade launcher guns in a pistol and rifle version, which differed only in the amount of ammo they could carry. They were in Fields of Fire and also in CC.
Don
Don
I guess BGMFH is referring to the stand-alone grenades one can attach to the end of a rifle's barrel and then fire with a normal round or a special type of blank where the gases of the rifle round propel the grenade. GlobalSecurity.Org is really slow right now, be posting links soon.
I have no idea whether these have ever appeared in any SR books.
[Edit]Silly Americans don't use them anymore, it seems. Here's some for the SA80/L85.[/Edit]
I have no idea whether these have ever appeared in any SR books.
[Edit]Silly Americans don't use them anymore, it seems. Here's some for the SA80/L85.[/Edit]
Hey, silly Americans don't use them anymore because the M203 beats the crap out of them!
Seriously, I have trouble seeing the rifle grenade platform still holding on in 60 years. Then again, my knowledge of rifle grenades pretty much stops at WW2/Korea, so I could be overlooking something wonderful, here.
And if I am, you'd better have custom rules to go with you explanation of why I'm wrong.
Seriously, I have trouble seeing the rifle grenade platform still holding on in 60 years. Then again, my knowledge of rifle grenades pretty much stops at WW2/Korea, so I could be overlooking something wonderful, here.
And if I am, you'd better have custom rules to go with you explanation of why I'm wrong.
Not saying you're wrong, but they have a few advantages over GLs such as the M203. Most importantly size and thus lethal radius and penetration potential. They don't need a separate launcher either, so with a few grenades per grunt you're still hauling less weight and bulk than with a separate GL.
The biggest downsides, I believe, are loss of accuracy and range, and to a lesser extent RoF. The M203 has a maximum range of 400m, 150m for point targets, while most rifle grenades seem to have ranges between 200 and 300 meters and much less for a point target probably. On the other hand, Grenade Launchers already have a pitiful 300 meter range in SR canon.
So how about this:
Complex Action to attach. Only works with Assault Rifles -- the "Carbines" seem to be pistol-caliber in canon, Sporting Rifles don't make sense as a platform, and neither do Sniper Rifles or MGs.
Ranges are 20-40/41-80/81-120/121-250
Cost x3 compared to hand grenades, weigh 0.3kg each, +2/+24hrs Avail, Conc 10.
If you've already fixed GLs to more realistic figures, Rifle Grenade ranges can be increased to 300 or 350 at the extreme, and their Damage Codes should be significantly higher than of "minigrenades". Like IPE-versions of grenades launched from GLs. AV rifle grenades should be available.
The biggest downsides, I believe, are loss of accuracy and range, and to a lesser extent RoF. The M203 has a maximum range of 400m, 150m for point targets, while most rifle grenades seem to have ranges between 200 and 300 meters and much less for a point target probably. On the other hand, Grenade Launchers already have a pitiful 300 meter range in SR canon.
So how about this:
Complex Action to attach. Only works with Assault Rifles -- the "Carbines" seem to be pistol-caliber in canon, Sporting Rifles don't make sense as a platform, and neither do Sniper Rifles or MGs.
Ranges are 20-40/41-80/81-120/121-250
Cost x3 compared to hand grenades, weigh 0.3kg each, +2/+24hrs Avail, Conc 10.
If you've already fixed GLs to more realistic figures, Rifle Grenade ranges can be increased to 300 or 350 at the extreme, and their Damage Codes should be significantly higher than of "minigrenades". Like IPE-versions of grenades launched from GLs. AV rifle grenades should be available.
While they might no longer be in use in America, a few other countries still use them. Check Austria's arsenal; according to a military manual that I borrowed from the local library (printed in 2000) they still use a 'latch onto the barrel' type RG to go with their standard issue Styer Augs.
They're not commonly used now because of the issue of HOW to launch the grenade. You can't simply just use normal ammo to launch; the impact of the rifle round on the grenade can generate enough pressure to warp the barrel of the gun (or break it). You can also put a hole right through the grenade for the bullet to pass through, but it's generates unnecessary hazards (you know where the grenade's going. Do you know where the bullet's going?). Using an alternative blank round is safest, but VERY time consuming, and time isn't what anyone has in the combat zone. The Austrians use a system whereby the standard live round fragments inside the grenade itself, which makes it relatively safe to use, tho.
The main attraction of using such GL systems is that the weight of the gun itself is changed less. The M203 adds quite some to the entire gun, firing mechanism et al, whereas this system just adds the wright of the grenade. Both have an ammo cap of 1, so no loss. The only issue is that, unlike M203 systems, the barrell RG system must shoot the grenade off before he can use his gun normally again....
EDIT: Actually, there isn't much difference in range and blast radius IIRC. Note that the description above is RL stuff and has nothing to do with SR, so make up your own rules if necessary.
EDIT2: Wonderful. Checked again online, and it seems that Austria military no longer uses this too. I guess this kind of grenade is indeed dying off.
EDIT3: Alright. Here's perhaps something we all can use:
=Gun Barrel RG Mod=
Cost: 500 (it's not too expensive, actually. In fact, most rifles can take it, even the carbine ones. All that's needed is a slight change to the barrel to allow the grenade to slip over it like a glove.)
Weight: +0.2 (Very negligible. Could be less.)
Avaliability: 1/8 (Army surplus stuff, you know)
Street Index: 1 (Should be fairly common.)
Legal Code: As per weapon
Range: As per normal underbarrel GL
Area of Effect: As per minigrenade
Rules notes:
- This mod cannot be done on Heavy Weapons (too big), Pistols (too small)Shotguns (causes instability), Energy Weapons (of course not. Optional Interesting Thought tho: perhaps the grenade is armed by a laser signal intensity?). It also requires that the gun has a Semi-Auto or Single Shot firing option.
- Can no longer mount any other external mods on the barrel.
- Standard mini-grenades can be used. Complex action to attach a grenade.
- While grenade attached, gun firing mode becomes Single Shot.
- Can NOT unattach grenade once attached (because the firing mechanism's tied to the fuse).
- Can NOT use normal rifle attack when grenade attached.
- Firing uses up the grenade and 1 ammo.
They're not commonly used now because of the issue of HOW to launch the grenade. You can't simply just use normal ammo to launch; the impact of the rifle round on the grenade can generate enough pressure to warp the barrel of the gun (or break it). You can also put a hole right through the grenade for the bullet to pass through, but it's generates unnecessary hazards (you know where the grenade's going. Do you know where the bullet's going?). Using an alternative blank round is safest, but VERY time consuming, and time isn't what anyone has in the combat zone. The Austrians use a system whereby the standard live round fragments inside the grenade itself, which makes it relatively safe to use, tho.
The main attraction of using such GL systems is that the weight of the gun itself is changed less. The M203 adds quite some to the entire gun, firing mechanism et al, whereas this system just adds the wright of the grenade. Both have an ammo cap of 1, so no loss. The only issue is that, unlike M203 systems, the barrell RG system must shoot the grenade off before he can use his gun normally again....
EDIT: Actually, there isn't much difference in range and blast radius IIRC. Note that the description above is RL stuff and has nothing to do with SR, so make up your own rules if necessary.
EDIT2: Wonderful. Checked again online, and it seems that Austria military no longer uses this too. I guess this kind of grenade is indeed dying off.
EDIT3: Alright. Here's perhaps something we all can use:
=Gun Barrel RG Mod=
Cost: 500 (it's not too expensive, actually. In fact, most rifles can take it, even the carbine ones. All that's needed is a slight change to the barrel to allow the grenade to slip over it like a glove.)
Weight: +0.2 (Very negligible. Could be less.)
Avaliability: 1/8 (Army surplus stuff, you know)
Street Index: 1 (Should be fairly common.)
Legal Code: As per weapon
Range: As per normal underbarrel GL
Area of Effect: As per minigrenade
Rules notes:
- This mod cannot be done on Heavy Weapons (too big), Pistols (too small)Shotguns (causes instability), Energy Weapons (of course not. Optional Interesting Thought tho: perhaps the grenade is armed by a laser signal intensity?). It also requires that the gun has a Semi-Auto or Single Shot firing option.
- Can no longer mount any other external mods on the barrel.
- Standard mini-grenades can be used. Complex action to attach a grenade.
- While grenade attached, gun firing mode becomes Single Shot.
- Can NOT unattach grenade once attached (because the firing mechanism's tied to the fuse).
- Can NOT use normal rifle attack when grenade attached.
- Firing uses up the grenade and 1 ammo.
| QUOTE (GreatChicken) |
| Actually, there isn't much difference in range and blast radius IIRC. |
I'd gladly believe you, but the few sites from which I could find quotes for rifle grenade ranges never gave anything over 350 meters for any rifle grenade, and usually between 200m and 300m. I've seen those kind of ranges mentioned before several times. That's obviously a lot shorter than the 400 meters for an M203.
The M406 40mm HE grenade fired from an M203 has a payload weight of ~35 grams of RDX, the M433 HEDP grenade has ~45 grams of Comp A5. Already back in WW2 there were several rifle grenades with ~300 meter ranges and payloads of up to 200 grams, with the grenade weighing ~500 grams. That's going to make one heck of a difference in lethal radius and penetration.
| QUOTE |
| In fact, most rifles can take it, even the carbine ones. |
I am aware that IRL carbines can fire them, as can several other types of weapons. But in Shadowrun, where the Carbine versions of ARs are usually in the SMG-category, I doubt they would pack the punch to propel the rifle grenades. The few oddities, like the 7S Carbines of the Steyr AUG/CSL and I think some other weapon too, could fire it. Weapons like the AK-97 SMG couldn't.
I don't get the point of this modification, though. Usually IRL, rifle grenades do not require such a modification, you can just slip the grenade over the barrel. This is how the Finnish DF rifle grenades work, and it seems also the British grenades for the SA80/L85. Even German late-WW2 rifle grenades didn't really use the Gewehrgranatgerät, the grenade was simply slipped on top of that because the various weapons have such different barrel types.
Only if the weapon in question has the front sight very close to the barrel end might such a modification be necessary, or if the barrel protrudes from the fore-end only slightly. It might be that weapon designs is much less standardized in the 2060s and thus the same grenades wouldn't fit on all weapons, but many of the rifle grenade manufacturers would only be making them for weapons made by one corp anyway.
In any case, you'd need special minigrenades. Standard ones meant to be fired from separate GLs could certainly not be used. The whole design of a rifle grenade differs dramatically from that of a GL grenade. I don't understand why the grenade couldn't be unattached, either, because none of the rifle grenades I've seen have any mechanism for latching onto the weapon.
| QUOTE |
| I don't get the point of this modification, though. Usually IRL, rifle grenades do not require such a modification, you can just slip the grenade over the barrel. This is how the Finnish DF rifle grenades work, and it seems also the British grenades for the SA80/L85. Even German late-WW2 rifle grenades didn't really use the Gewehrgranatgerät, the grenade was simply slipped on top of that because the various weapons have such different barrel types. |
This is because the weapon is actually pre-made with rifle grenade considerations in mind. In fact, Steyr once had a barrel construction standard (I think it's .22 inch) that is, coincidentially or not, just the right size for an RG to slip in, and thick enough to withstand RG launching. Other guns like the M1-Garand of WWII required an extra attachment on it's barrel (and you can see this attachment in Wolfenstien: Enemy Territory; both sides have noticable mods to the barrels of their guns).
I don't suppose any guns of the future carry such mods, since the trend is generally moving away from RGs to underbarrel GLs, so I should safely assume all SR gun barrels are constructed differently.
| QUOTE |
| In any case, you'd need special minigrenades. Standard ones meant to be fired from separate GLs could certainly not be used. The whole design of a rifle grenade differs dramatically from that of a GL grenade. I don't understand why the grenade couldn't be unattached, either, because none of the rifle grenades I've seen have any mechanism for latching onto the weapon. |
Not always. The Garand-RG and the K49-RG mods could actually take standard hand grenades. The grenades are attached in such a way that the safety ring is attached to, and pulled off upon firing by, a hook of some sort. It's pretty probable that modern RGs also work in relatively the same way.
Admittedly, tho, modern RGs are much more different than the WWII ones, but I don't really see any cost difference there. It's practically, in all respects, except perhaps for cosmetics, a GL round.
EDIT: Note that RGs nowadays aren't launched by the force of a bullet. (In fact, for modern RGs, if the force of the bullet is lighter, so much the better. No barrel damage risk
). A rifle grenade, the modern variety, is just like an extra large caliber bullet, also with gunpowder stuffed into it's tail. It also fires with the same mechaism used to fire guns (sharp force or electical impulse on the rear end, setting off charge that creates enough pressure from the resulting mini-explosion to send the thing into the air). Technically, this means an SMG, properly customized, CAN launch a rifle grenade. Even a pistol; of course, mounting an RG on a pistol makes it VERY UNWIELDY and is not encouraged.
| QUOTE (GreatChicken) |
| This is because the weapon is actually pre-made with rifle grenade considerations in mind. |
In the future, if any Armies are going to be using rifle grenades, it's a good bet they'll be using rifles that can fire them without modification. This might lead to a situation where only a few ARs can do it (G38? Semopal Wossname? AK-97?) and the rest would be left out. If modifications were made to allow those other weapons to fire the rifle grenades, they'd most likely be made by criminal elements wanting to make use of the grenades without having the correct weapons.
Whether you want your rules to represent that is another matter. Certainly you could allow all ARs to fire them without modification, or you could require all weapons to take the mod. Most realistic might be that there'd be a few weapons that could fire them without modification, and many more that could with the mod.
Are there any such rifle grenade modifications in use by modern armies anywhere in the world? I've certainly never heard of them.
| QUOTE |
| The grenades are attached in such a way that the safety ring is attached to, and pulled off upon firing by, a hook of some sort. It's pretty probable that modern RGs also work in relatively the same way. |
In none of the rifle grenades I have seen is there any external device that would in any way attach to the barrel separately. You simply slip the grenade on the barrel and that's it. There might be a system inside the grenade that attaches directly to the barrel, but the grenade should still be detachable simply by rotating the grenade or something similar.
Modern rifle grenades all seem to be impact-detonated. No safety devices such as on a hand grenade. Since I've never seen a separate rifle grenade modification on a modern weapon, I've never seen anything other than actual rifle grenades being attached to or fired from one.
| QUOTE |
| It's practically, in all respects, except perhaps for cosmetics, a GL round. |
The massive majority of rifle grenades have no propelling charge, GL rounds always do. That's a significant, non-cosmetic different right there. Likewise, the massive majority of rifle grenades are fin-stabilized (I haven't seen any modern rifle grenade that isn't), while GL rounds are usually spin-stabilized or not at all. And then there's the difference in general size that I already mentioned, which leads to more specific differences like payload weight.
| QUOTE |
| Are there any such rifle grenade modifications in use by modern armies anywhere in the world? I've certainly never heard of them. |
http://www.inert-ord.net/yugos/yughr/m60/
Introducing Yugoslav's M60 rifle grenade, which uses a small, attachment that is meant to be slipped onto the gun barrel before the grenade is launched. Yes, the danged thing looks more like a rocket than an RG, but it is.
But the attachment on this one seems to be disposable. I can't find any permanently attached ones nowadays. Probably a trend in gun construction at one point or another to make necessary mods obsolete to save time.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/grndrifl.htm
This one's a WWII RG attachment. No record of the ammunition it uses. Note the module's ability to seperate and it's screw on feature.
| QUOTE |
| Modern rifle grenades all seem to be impact-detonated. No safety devices such as on a hand grenade. Since I've never seen a separate rifle grenade modification on a modern weapon, I've never seen anything other than actual rifle grenades being attached to or fired from one. |
Here's a first, then: the WWII Garand RG system.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/mk2rifle.htm
Note the hook-like structure that clasps onto the grenade's safety. This can NOT be done today, because modern ammunition has higher penetrative power and CAN penetrate the grenade's hard shell (potentially causing the thing to explode in your face
). This mod has poor range compared to modern RG ranges because the grenade is just a normal hand grenade with no gunpower charge on it's back.EDIT: Uh...the massive majority of modern RGs DO have propelling charge on it's back. They're not THAT LONG for nothing.
GL rounds are generally not spin stabilized as well; there's too little barrel to do so. (As opposed to Mortar Rounds which are). I think some have folding fins, but I'm not sure. As for the payload, I guess I can give some concession on that, since the size of the RG isn't limited by the size of the GL....
When I say "modern weapon", I generally mean one that is currently in use by the military of a civilized country. 
I've seen the Garand grenade launcher system before, although I've never given it a second thought. The "Mk 2 Rifle Grenade" looks delightfully old-fashioned. Someone might be doing that in the 2060s similar to how someone might use a single action revolver in something like .44-40 now.
The text on the page with the Yugoslavion rifle grenade mentions "international standards" relating to spigot launched grenade mounting. That seems to be the only site on the internet which recognizes that standard. The rifle grenade that can be fired from the Finnish RK-95 has no propelling charge of its own and still has a maximum range of well over 300 meters.
I've seen the Garand grenade launcher system before, although I've never given it a second thought. The "Mk 2 Rifle Grenade" looks delightfully old-fashioned. Someone might be doing that in the 2060s similar to how someone might use a single action revolver in something like .44-40 now.The text on the page with the Yugoslavion rifle grenade mentions "international standards" relating to spigot launched grenade mounting. That seems to be the only site on the internet which recognizes that standard. The rifle grenade that can be fired from the Finnish RK-95 has no propelling charge of its own and still has a maximum range of well over 300 meters.
| QUOTE (GreatChicken) |
| Uh...the massive majority of modern RGs DO have propelling charge on it's back. |
I'd love to see some sort of cut-out or technical print of a grenade that shows the propelling charge. The Finnish DF home page says that the rifle grenade used with the RK-95 has no propelling charge. The print of Gewehrpanzergranate 30 you can see here shows no propelling charge. Even the Yugoslavian M60P1 shows no other propelling charge than the modifed 7.62x39 sitting in its base. Looking at the size of the grenades fired with the SA80/L85 when not extended, it seems rather clear there's no propelling charge in them.
I'd gladly believe you on this as well, but I haven't seen anything that would support the idea that the majority of rifle grenades have propelling charges. And the Finnish one flies over 300 meters without a propelling charge (unless one assumes that the FDF lies about its gear), so there doesn't seem to be any particular need for a separate propelling charge anyway.
| QUOTE |
| GL rounds are generally not spin stabilized as well |
That's why I said "generally spin-stabilized or not at all". Most GLs seem to be rifled, including the M203. Whether that's enough to actually stabilize the grenade or not, I really don't know.
| QUOTE |
| I think some have folding fins, but I'm not sure. |
Never seen one of those. None of the NATO standard 40mms certainly have folding fins. But I would be interested to see it if you can find a link or something.
| QUOTE |
| As for the payload, I guess I can give some concession on that, since the size of the RG isn't limited by the size of the GL. |
More importantly, every single rifle grenade I've seen anywhere has an explosive charge more than twice as large as the heaviest GL round I've ever seen -- 120 grams and up for rifle grenades compared to ~30-40 grams for LV GL rounds or up to 50 grams for HV GL rounds.
Grenades of this sort were presented in one of the Chrome books for CP2020. That might be where you're remembering them from.
Hmm. You're right. I can't really find any evidence of RGs carrying propellent charge, tho I'm really skeptical about how they manage to get the grenade to fly THAT FAR with only the pressure necessary to fire a bullet; I don't think aerodynamics is enough, since the weight of the charge will make the thing fly like a brick. 
It's a pretty good achievement for the makers of the RK95 to make a non-propelled RG have the same effective range as it's normal rifle fire mode. I am impressed.
I'd probably be able to get more pics if I can somehow get inside Jane's site without having to sign up. *grumbles*
PS: Early Rifle Grenade here, anti-tank. For the attachment that I labeled 'ammo record not found'.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/riflgrnd.htm
It's a pretty good achievement for the makers of the RK95 to make a non-propelled RG have the same effective range as it's normal rifle fire mode. I am impressed.
I'd probably be able to get more pics if I can somehow get inside Jane's site without having to sign up. *grumbles*
PS: Early Rifle Grenade here, anti-tank. For the attachment that I labeled 'ammo record not found'.
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/riflgrnd.htm
Maybe that particular grenade is rather light -- I remember reading somewhere that the Finnish standard rifle grenade weighs ~300 grams. Maybe they do lie on that page and it does have some minor propelling charge. The English version doesn't have that paragraph, but the Finnish one says (lit) "it takes its functioning energy from the powder gases". It also mentions that the AT rifle grenades can penetrate 10cm-20cm of RHS.
And I'd forgotten just how expensive Jane's subscription is. I think I can find other things to spend $1,555 on.
And I'd forgotten just how expensive Jane's subscription is. I think I can find other things to spend $1,555 on.
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