Hi Bull,

I would recommend you limit the force of spells or spirits cast during downtime to the magician's Magic rating. As it stand right now, Buying Hits is a big advantage to the magician since there is no chance of death.

For example, in my home crew there is a mage (Magic 10, dice pools around 18). So, he can quicken a spell at Force 20 (e.g. Increased Reaction) and with buying hits avoid going unconscious. Now, with a Force 20 spell, his spell cannot be Dispelled or disrupted via Mana Barriers. Note that in a real campaign, the GM could have the magician roll the dice which might result in his accidental death. So, this problem is really a result of the (necessary) organized campaign down-time rules.

Simply limiting the max force for spells and spirits during off-time to the Magic rating would curb the worst of this abuse.

Thoughts?
~Jason

Hello,

Can you just clarify for me something (so I understand).

He casts a Force 20 Increase Reaction. It is successful.

Now he resists 17 DV Drain (Stun, unless he gets 11 or more successes on his casting test.) If he has a Physical Condition Monitor of 10, that means he has to buy 8 successes in order to avoid going unconscious - meaning he needs a dice pool of 32.

I very well may be missing something - not trying to start an argument.

No problem. He has a drain pool of ~18 dice. So, buying hits, he reduces the damage by 4. Technically this particular mage can only cast it at force 19. He must drain 16 stun, he reduces it to 12 stun. Because of his WIL 9, he has a stun CM of 13. Therefore, he is still conscious (having filled 12 of his 13 stun boxes). He proceeds to quicken the spell. He spends the rest of the day recovering from his stun-induced headache.

Now he's walking around with a force 19 spell. This spell pops any mana barriers he comes into contact with. Also, any opponent who tries to dispel his spell is in for a rude awakening.

Magic 10, Wilpower 9. Drain pool of 18.

No SRM char i know has stats like this. He must have spent at least ~250 Karma to get those two attributes so high. Initiation not counted.

If he is using a powerfocus to get magic 10 dont forget that its only a dice pool modifier and he will get physical drain regularly as the hits exeed his magic attribute.

So i dont think this is a problem regular groups will have, since your example here is way to powerful.

Since I am the particular mage in question I will answer some of these questions. Magic is indeed with a Power Focus, so thank you for that correction. Still at force 12 it is an issue.
My willpower is actually 10. Base 6 + Improved attribute +4 = 10. Its my charisma that is a 9. Base 5 Improved attribute +4 = 9. Those stats can be quickened after only 15 karma.

The problem is that buying hit will never exceed my magic 6 attribute, so this is always stun damage. My spellcasting 16(18) skill mean 4 hits. Since my magic rating is 6 there is no risk of physical damage.

There's nothing explicitly forbidding this. However, there's nothing that says the GM can't pimp slap you for trying to break the system either. THe GM can and sometimes should say no.

To me, this falls under the global Wheaton rule of "Don't Be A Dick". Anytime you're going out of your way to break the system? I consider that something of a dickish move.

Hmmm.. I am seeing 46 Karma in bonding of Foci: 1 rating 4 power focus at 24 karma; 1 rating 6 spell (sustaining) focus for the willpower increase attribute at 12 karma; and 1 rating 5 spell (sustaining) focus for the charisma increased attribute at 10 karma. That was just to bind them. There is also the cost of purchasing them at 112,000

That is unless you are taking the -2 hit for sustaining one of the increased attributes yourself.
.
I also would not allow the buying of hits for "buff" spells. There is too much that could happen with a critical glitch on that. You need to roll your improvements in my games

The 15 karma he is referencing (I would imagine) is the 13 karma to initiate once, take the Quickening metamagic, and then cast the increase Willpower, spend 1 karma to quicken it. Cast the increase Charisma, spend 1 karma to quicken it.

Either way, I agree, as a GM, if it is breaking your games, don't let it happen. You can do that by not letting him buy hits, or whatever method you feel appropriate.

Thanks all for this dialogue!

@Citm - Thanks for pointing out his actual Magic rating does not increase. Therefore, he could not cast a Force 20 spell - only a Force 12 spell. While that certainly helps, even walking around with Force 12 spells is still somewhat problematic.

@forgarn - The problem is that per the SRM campaign rules, one *must* buy hits for these kinds of buff spells. Therefore, the SRM GM is not allowed to force die rolls.

@Bull - I respectfully disagree with the idea that playing a character according to the written core and campaign rules would ever fall under being a dick. I would suggest we have simple campaign rules to curb these abuses, but that's just me. The problem I have is that if campaign rules allow something, it is hard for a GM to disallow something that is specifically allowed in the core/campaign rules. Just a few well thought out campaign rules would provide a level playing field across all groups. I certainly have no problem coming up with these house rules for a home campaign, but imposing rules in an organized play upon characters playing with different GM's seems like it could lead to difficulties.

Best,
~Jason

I dont think that. Do you honestly suggest to dont use quickening during downtimes?. Its absurd to say "dont be a dick", "wheatons law" everytime someone finds a way to step out of line.

I think a good way to handle this is to think about the fact that its not that easy for a runner to walk around with active spells and many facilities should have controls, or strong manabarriers that prohibit such things. Than you always have the risk of passing out and in this case actual "lose" real karma. I think its okay to buff on a run and even during downtimes but you have to face the fact that this spells are still arent permanent and there is a good chance you will attract much attention and have to drop the spells, and also lose karma.

Or, GM can just dont allow to use the "buy hits" rule and you have the chance to get physical drain.



So all thoughts together i think it is not that overpowered and GMs have good options to handle abusement.

I think the cost calculation of "1" needs to be looked at again.

=========

A pool of 18 yields only 4 hits, leave 13 physical drain. Also, given the potential consequences of failing to resist the drain being death, it appears there already is a book roll against buying hits here.

Though I didn't quote it in my note above, overcasting is physical drain, not stun.

Redjack -- SR5 only requires 1 karma for Quickening, but can add up to Force to help prevent dispelling. (SR5, p 326)

Redjack,

They are talking about 5e, not 4e.

In 5e, it only costs a single karma:

Page 326
You can manipulate your sustained
spells into a sort of loop, so that they sustain themselves
instead of relying on you to do it for them. To quicken
a spell, take a Complex Action and spend karma while
you’re sustaining the spell. You must spend at least 1
Karma but may spend up to the Force of the spell. The
spell becomes permanent and gets a dice pool bonus
against dispelling (p. 295) equal to the amount of Karma
you spent on it.

Overcasting is only physical if the number of net hits exceeds your magic attribute. If I have a magic of 6, and I cast a force 12 spell, if I get 6 hits or less, I still take stun damage, not physical.

Page 282
Drain calculation is listed for each spell; the Drain Value
is determined using the Force and the listed calculation,
but can never be lower than 2. After casting a spell, you
must resist Drain using the dice pool for Drain Resistance
according to your tradition. Remember that if the
number of hits you rolled when casting the spell (Step
4) exceeds your Magic rating, then the Drain causes
Physical instead of Stun damage.

EDIT - ninja'd by Bishop

Oh, hell. Sorry. When we were talking about 250 karma, I assumed we had to be talking about SR4 campaigns.

No Problem. Also the purpose of the post is really to bring up an issue within the Organized Play arena. Neither the OP or myself would use buying hits for this within a home campaign.
We both have extensive experience in the organized play arena in multiple game systems. Both as players and as administrators. It is very important in these environments that a level playing field is maintained so that a player can go to many locations and play under a variety of judges and expect a uniform experience.
In this case we are trying to point out that the specific blanket rule for the missions campaign that mandates buying hits may need to be reviewed, and an exception rule be provided for this specific application. While I agree that the GM has final say at his table, there can and will be a great deal of animosity invokes if a player is operating within the missions framework and gets told that a GM is disregarding that framework in that instance at that time.
In regards to being a dick. I enjoy the mental exercise involved with making optimized character withing whatever framework I am playing. I am also one of the strictest adherents to "Wheatons Law" out there. The two are not mutually exclusive. In many cases my characters eclipse the power level of others at cons and other events. That fact does not impede the other players ability to have fun. In fact I enjoy holding back and allowing others to shine in their roles. I NEVER shove my power in their faces, and try to make sure everyone at the table is included. I excel in my role and usually one or two other roles as well, but only exercise that power when needed. In our regular group I actually a better face than our face, I do not play that role for our group unless he is missing.
I hope that Bull and others can see this post for what it is. A sincere effort to make the Organized Play campaign within this game we all love so much better. Regardless of our personal feelings this game attracts powergamers, optomizers, and roleplayers. this includes all of the relative mixtures of those traits as well. An Organized Play Campaign MUST be able to integrate all of them or it will alienate a whole group of potential customers.

Since this thread is dead for almost a month i assume that nothing "official" has resulted here.

Id suggest to just dont allow buying hits during downtimes. This would be a balanced way to prevent abusement and quickening high-powered spells would be more risky.

Sorry to thread necro this. But I have a hard time with one big item here.

Role play.

Simply put... under 4th ed... you can only mask/extended mask at forces or below your magic rating.

Under 5th ed, extended masking isn't around yet. Masking only covers you and your active foci. It pointedly does not include active spells.


So someone running around with a force 12 spell on them is going to more or less have a huge astral "LOOK AT ME" sign on them. They're going to garner attention from anyone awakened. Even having a watcher tasked to a beat cop will spot that one it's so blindingly obvious.

The choice to actively quicken spells like that should have some big in-game benefits and drawbacks beyond simply... oh no. I accidentally knocked down yet another ward... oh well.

Well, there are mods out there with Lonestar/Knight Errant Mages looking for disturbances. I would say a sustained spell could be considered a disturbance. Anything at Force 12 should, at minimum, have a licence check involved if they go into public areas. Especially Higher security areas. Also depends on the spell. Some should attract more attention than others. 'Sir, can I please see your license for the Force 12 increased reflexes that you are sustaining?' seems like a reasonable question.