So, today, a question came up.

A bit of background: When searching for data, normally you use Data Search (skill) + Browse (program). As this is a fairly trivial test, and I wasn't really motivated to look it up, once upon a time, I decided to give a player, who has a Browse program, but no data search skill the option to roll with Log-1+Browse Program Rating (since Data Search is a skill where you can default on the attribute).

Today, as the character has a bit of Karma left over, I suggested buying a rank in Data Search. The player's answer was (predictably, as I see now): "But why? I have Log 5. Then I would have less dice with the skill than without it."

Obviously, browsing the matrix willy-nilly isn't something that concerns me overmuch.
However, both Hacking, and even Cybercombat are also skills where you can default on the attribute, so this is where I realized that I've probably been doing it wrong.

I couldn't find in either the core rulebook nor Unwired any mention about rules pertaining to that, so I've thought about it and came up with two possible solutions:

1.) You can't roll at all, if you don't have the skill required for a matrix action, even if you own and have the program running.
2.) You can roll, but only with the program rating.

Which one is it (and where is it defined), or did I just not find the rule for this eventuality?

Thanks in advance

To be honest, I don't recall having read anything about this in the rules, but if it was me, depending on the specific roll, I would probably have ruled that the player would only get Program Rating -1 as his dice pool. If you don't have any matrix skills, you basically don't have any proper idea about how to use the programs that you have, and thus there is no way that you will be getting the most out of them. Imagining picking up a copy of i.e. Adobe In-Design or Photoshop, and then being asked to use the program to do something with, without any form of instructions or help guides. That's basically what we are talking about here. The PC might be able to use the Browse program for a basic search for something normal like the official homepage of a restaurant. But they probably wouldn't be able to find any form of unusual or actively disguised information.

As for using Cybercombat and Hacking, I'd probably tell the player that he's fucked and don't even get to try, as these two skills to me symbolize a level of knowledge that you don't have access to, without some level of instruction/learning/training, symbolized by the Skill rank.

As you also point out, there is the problem with defaulting to Logic or similar, that you can then have a player with a high stat, who will be able to default a roll where he has no skill, than he would be able to with a low Skill rank. This was probably not the intention of the game mechanics.

The main book does actually explicitly state which skills you can default on and which can't (p120, SR4A - skills listed in italics cannot be.) Computer is one of the ones you can default on, and so are Hacking and Cybercombat.

I don't think the rules for defaulting to a Program are spelled out, but I seem to recall that for Matrix tests, the Program pretty much substitutes for the attribute, and I think the way to handle the given situation is (Browse - 1), as if he were defaulting to the Browse program as an attribute.

I don't have the book with me atm Sponge, but you are probably right that RAW you can default on Hacking/Cybercombat (not that I quite agree with it, but that's a different matter). The most logical extrapolation on the matter is that defaulting means "Program Rating -1" in stead of "Attribute -1".

This is how we always handled that issue with RAW... It is Attribute -1 if you do not have the skill, and since the Program subs for the Attribute... Well, you get the picture.
When we adopted the Optional Rules of Stat + Skill (Limit of Program); well, then you had Attribute -1 (Limit Program). Also worked out pretty well.

So, the consensus seems to be to just supplant the program rating for attribute and use that one to default. Sounds about right and it's what I'd do with my gut feeling, but thanks for pointing out the -1 suggestion. I'll handle it this way, should it ever come up.

Thanks for the help, but I'm still open if someone actually finds a rules citation

"All rules that apply to Attributes apply to Programs or Matrix Attributes instead." (SR4A pg. 226, Attributes in the Matrix). Basics: Logic + Datasearch, with Logic replaced by Browse, so Browse-1 should be correct. Getting the skill at 1 then yields two dice, like always.

Ah, thank you! That's exactly what I was looking for!

FAQ'd answer.

Since the program replaces the attribute portion of linked tests on the matrix, you default to Program -1 on the matrix

Which also means, rather appropriately, that you cannot roll at all without the program.

Indeed...
Regardless of whether you are RAW or Optional Rules...

Unless you have that quality which isn't really worth getting...

I disagree... I have a character with the Quality(s) and he was pretty spiffy.

You also tend to be a statistical outlier, and the usefulness will often rely on the character's skill (since they don't get the dice for the program) and the flexibility/forgiveness of the GM. You can't rate the usefulness of a power/quality overall on GM fiat.

Example:
Data Search (a common thing, and keep in mind 4th ed).
You have a 5 in Data Search, no program. Other guy, a newb, has Data search of 3, and a Browse program of 2. He's about half as good as you and getting as good results, on average, as you. Let's say he has a Browse of 6 on his wiz new commlink. He now has almost twice as good a result with half the skill, because you're not using a program.

Additionally, the quality is 5 BP, iirc, approximately 25000 nuyen. How many times are you picking this up? That's 5 rating 1 complex forms, or several programs of mid to high rating, each of which has more function than that individual matrix action, and at least a 1 die boost each.

Now, if this quality is being picked up with Karma, perhaps it can be worth it, but it's edge-case at best for starting characters, with better tactical options unless you know your GM plans to be a jerk and plans to require ONE matrix action repeatedly before you can get your first commlink.

That is true...

I believe that the Character I played had the Quality 5 Times (iirc, away from character), and was going for a total of 7 to cover most of the common actions - And Since he only took them for Illegal Program Actions, he had the benefit of not showing any such programs on his 'Link if he was ever detained. Took 2 of them in Character Creation and picked up the remaining Qualities after play started.

And we used an Optional Rule: Stat + Skill (Program), so with this option, we capped Limit at Intuition for the Quality.
It was an interesting experiment, and I liked it, but then, as you say, I am a bit odd.
Not a Jerk GM... I just like to experiment with Character Concepts and he was one of the more fun concepts I played. I used Canray's "Accountant From Hell" Idea as a baseline and went from there. He was tons of fun, but again, pretty much an Average Joe thrust into the Shadows and having to cope. He was a blast.