Guys. I need a bit of help.

Where, if anywhere, can I find some rules about how to actually steal/hotwire a car in SR4a?

I can't remember reading anything about it before, and my initial quick skims over the various vehicle and hacking rules don't seem to state anything specific, though I can be overlooking something. Last week I winged it as the GM, making it a question of breaking into a node (the car's computer), and then spoofing the car's ID with respect to the Grid. But is there anything specific about this somewhere that I simply can't remember or find?

As of SR4, that's pretty much how i'd think it works.
In SR3, it was way more complicated, needing several skills.

Dunno, if there's really rules for this.
Hardware tests to beat the maglock / anti-theft, then as you described, hack the node.
For older models it can be as simple as a locksmith test.

Under SR3 you had to do
Build/Repair Car
Build/Repair Electronics
Then Computer(Decker-Stuff)
Then Car

Prime example for clunkiness of system.
Although, to be fair, SR4 isn't much less of a roll orgy, since maglocks are beaten with extended tests.

I don't see that as being clunky. It's real life. Stealing a modern, RFID-locked car takes some serious work. SR cars are even more locked down. The fact is, stealing cars in the future won't be as easy as "hey, I'm a decker, look at me!"

Yes. When I want real life, I'll get real life, thanks very much.
I don't need micromanagement like that in a game that's supposed to be fun (as opposed to work). But that's neither here nor there, and tastes differ, and so on.

That's pretty much it to hack anything that isn't a Rigger's own ride. Have the group Hacker/Technomancer attack the car's node, which is going to be pretty much autosuccessful even if you go straight for hacking an admin account on the fly, since cars have really low device ratings. Once you own the node, you own the car if there isn't anybody inside to contest it, and even if there is, you probably own the car (though he's probably going to be freaking out and calling Knight Errant on his commlink,) you'll just need to get rid him of him.

Keeping the car is going to be a royal pain in the ass, though. You want to get it completely off the Matrix as soon as possible, which means you want to be ready to drive it into a fat-bodied truck lined with a faraday mesh to completely kill the signals. Shut it down and physically disconnect all the power sources you can find. Ideally, you also have a faraday cage garage to do your Nefarious Deeds to the poor innocent car to.

Remember VIN numbers? Those things are still around, and it would be hilarious (for the cops) if you zapped all the high-tech antitheft deterrents only to get tripped up by literally the oldest car tracking system known to metahumanity. Then you've got to get to the RFID tags - you know, those pesky ones they've actually molded the frame around? Good luck with that, though I'd point out that technically speaking, RFID chips are Devices too, and can be hacked. Make sure you get them all, though - you will want to invest in the manufacturing plans for the model you have, so you can get the damn stealthed ones, too. You may have to pull or hire a Run to get those, but it will be worth it, because nothing makes the cops suspect your ride is nicked more than the broadcasting RFIDs telling them one story and the stealthed ones telling them another when queried.

And of course, don't forget the car's poor widdle node. Nuke that sumbitch back to the factory defaults - or rip it out and replace it entirely if your budget permits. There's no telling what kind of sneaky backdoors the original owner installed, like maybe calling home when the car is in MSR with any two nodes where one of their MFID numbers is Prime and the other corresponds to the Fibonacci Sequence or whatever. On the other hand, feel free to install sneaky backdoors of your own - no, you can't steal your own stolen car back, the guy you're selling to will get suspicious the third time you sell him the same car, but you can always sell that backdoor information anonymously on ShadowSEA or whatever for a few extra nuyen.

Alternatively, you can probably flog it fast and dirty for like, 5-10% of its full value to someone who will handle all of that and make it Not Your Problem.


And if you're thinking about your own rides... My advice would be to install manual controls override on everything, and to greatly uprate the vehicle's node by ripping the controller and installing a commlink in its place. Cars are hilariously vulnerable, and given that they're mobile, with a good hacker they can literally steal themselves, but an uprated node should interfere with any Nefarious Schemes others might have for your ride.

actually, yes, yes it is . .
if you get into the main node of the vehicle, you have the lock, the ignition, the steering, the fapping auto pilot and can tell it where to drive to . .

OK. What I'm hearing you guys saying is that there isn't really any hard and fast rules on how to hijack a car in SR4a, meaning that we are essentially down to GM decision and an attempt at common sense combined with workable game mechanics.

In your oppinions, would the following be reasonable assumptions concerning cars in SR4a:

1) The car has a node, like almost anything else in the SR world. If the engine is running, the car's primary node is operating, and then it ought to become a question of hacking the node, in order to take control of the Pilot and system, leaving just the problem of dealing with the driver and the cars Gridlink ID.

2) When a car is powered down and the engine is off, most parts of the computer is shut down as well, meaning that hacking the main computer is impossible.

3) Entry into the car, even when the primary computer is shut down, must still be possible. Hence the access control must either be based on a mechanical system or some form of electronical/software based independent or sub-system. Or maybe a combination of mechanical and electronical. "Realistically" the access system will have to be practical for people to deal with in their everyday lives. This means that they'll need some form of "key", or they will have to have the "key" build into some other item they carry on a daily basis, or based on their personal biometrics. Biometrics might be pretty secure, but it would probably be viewed as impractical, as it makes lending your car to a friend somewhat more difficult. For this reason I'd expect that the system would be based on either a set of paired RFID tags, or an ID code that can be broadcast from a comlink. Given how easy it is to hack a comlink in SR, an RFID system is probably most likely. To access a shut down car, you thus need to crack that RFID system. Successfully accessing the car might also turn on the primary node, allowing for engine control etc., and thus allowing for the hacking of the primary node. Easiest way to handle it with existing mechanics would thus be to use the rules for getting through Transponder-embedded keys (SR4a core p. 263) followed by either a hacking of the car's primary node, or alternatively using the mechanics for cracking open a maglock system using Hardware + Logic.

Anyone see any specific problems with this? Either from a mechanical or setting perspective.

Sounds reasonable enough.

i see no reason why the main node of the car should shut down with the engine.
there'a a battery for a reason O.o

To avoid some punk with a commlink hacking it and driving away?

that's what the firewall is there for.
it's wifi always online everything after all as of SR4 and especially since SR5.

Note that Stahlseele is talking SR4 mechanics (which is what OP was asking about).

A question Stahlseele:

Why should the car node's wifi be turned on, if the vehicle is shut down?

There's no need for it, and it simply makes the system less secure. The Gridlink system might still be active, but that can operate as a separate system drawing power from either the Grid, or the car's battery, and the access system can do the same.

And yet it's not.
It is easy enough to disable wi-fi in certain situations and often advisable. Even in SR5 (you'll only lose online bonuses, after all).
Wireless access is not per default on, if it's an open invitation to just have your wheels run off on their own. It is entirely reasonable to assume that cars do not stand around having their computers run, all day every day, and instead only boot up when a key is inserted or in the car's vicinity. Or, e.g., if you get physically inside and activate it, via a hardware check.


I'm aware, thanks.

Kind of hard to remotely turn it on and have it drive to you if you cannot connect to it remotely.

That's a good point, actually, TJ, and one I hadn't thought about.
Which is kind of surprising, considering how often my characters do this.

Still, the option is there to turn the thing off, but it's probably not the norm.

Arguably true. But are you supposed to be able to do that, as the setting is described? I honestly can't remember.

Assuming it is the intention, it still ought to be fairly simple to handle though. Add a passive sub-system that can turn on the primary node remotely, if provided the correctly encrypted activation signal. Game mechanically possible to spoof the system with the normal spoofing rules.

Here to Serve...
My character's do that often too, when they actually own a vehicle.

Yes...
Yes...

Which brings us back to Yes, Cars are Hackable", and that is truly all that is required to gain access.

Yeah, that's a pretty normal thing for people to be doing as I understand the setting - think modern remote starters with a even more convenience added on top.

It's the whole tradeoff between security and usability - and by default, cars in SR4 have a crapton of usability.

If you want real automotive security, you remove the battery from your car at night. That only works if it's a combustion-engine car, though, removing the kinds of batteries that drive an electric or an SR4 hybrid gas-electric engine is a no-go without an auto garage.

That's a bit aggressive. While living overseas, most people would just remove one of the battery cables (to keep the car stationary, one friend removed the cable to the distributor cap. It's light enough to tuck into a purse or backpack -- which a battery is not. Sure, a hacker can still unlock your car, but that was available with the battery out still via the brick method. The hacker could program the car to be remote controlled once the driver gets back in, but then you have a driver in the car calling Lone Star.)

I think it would be as simple as a single node for 4a (though it might be a less interesting game) as you can already remote start your vehicle from a few feet away in real life. Stealing a car isnt exactly rocket surgery.

[edit]
I broke in and hotwired my own bronco 2 once because I didnt have the keys and its not like I had the professional tools to do it (I screwed up my electronic lock pretty good in the process to, the price you pay for only having a coat hanger). The ignitions are smarter now but I'm sure the cops have some way around it when they need to.

If it's more convenient for your players you could also treat a car that is off as simply having its node running silently. That way it is still accessible of you know where to look (which a RFID 'key' would).

For the most part though I see shadowrunners carjacking as either a short term set of wheels or to sell to a fence who specializes in reselling stolen cars as a means of getting rid of evidence (a sr4 adventure I think in corporate guides has a used car dealer who does that in the side).

For street games or games where the players will e carjacking regularly and wishing to use the vehicles somehow they would probably need a full facility and space (most likely masquerading as an autoshop/dealer with the needed Ids and licenses) and extremely powerful RFID tag erasers and an abundance of RFIDs they can program themselves (a car with none is a red flag). Unless of course thy are running a chop shop in which case I would say they just need the erasers and depending on what all they are taking either a shop or facility. All lined with wifi inhibiting paint.

On a Prius there is a 12V battery that run the relays between the high voltage battery system and the drive motors If that battery dies or is removed the car isn't going anywhere under it's own power.

This old chestnut.

-DrZ

That only stops the starter which technically you can spin by hand... I've never known anyone to do that. However you can buy a starter battery thats good for a couple starts and its less than a foot long and full of AA batteries. Its supposed to be for when your battery is dead and you dont have anyone to jump it. I would think 2 Lantern batteries would be the way to go for multiple temporary starts but maybe thats not enough amperage.

Alright, fair 'nuff, but most would-be thieves won't have one of those on the off-chance their target is paranoid enough to remove a massively heavy battery from their car and remove it to a large enough distance that it is not practicable for the thieves to simply reinstall it.

Then remove something else, too. A spark plug or something. Anything which is reasonably easy to remove when you park the car at dawn or dusk or whenever you put it down and go to sleep, and just as easy to reinstall when it's time to go.

Like I said, distributor cap, cable, or the little spinny inside it. A car can run with one bad plug. Distributors are cheap to replace, but you have to know what's wrong, and it's a specialty part you're not going to pick up at Wal-Mart.

I'm also rather partial to the Mr. Bean method; take the entire steering wheel.

Or you could just be a normal U2C and expect that your stuff is safe because the Corporations© say so.

Edit: Except for technomancers, they are EEEEVVIIILLLL! and nothing you do can protect you from one of them (except turning anyone you think is one over to the Corporations©).

The problem is all the easy parts to get to are also common to buy. You would have to find something generally uncommon and easy to remove but much like internet security and getting away from the dragon you only have to be a harder target than the guy next to you.

You could just cover the door handles in mono-razors and the only way in is a manual key on the end of a big stick. But then again you would have to be very paranoid for that. (But working next to a tow company for a few years I have actually seen two cars with that..)

By 2075 you would also assume that physical immobilizers are more advanced, perhaps also with a manually disengaging wheel lock, plus how many car thieves are going to carry a cyberdeck, mono saw, key sequencer and auto picker/lock picks?

Almost is starting to sound easier to steal cars from C zone or worse, or just car jack and taser the owner.

I mulled this over a while and decided that the best move is to walk up, spoof a command to start the car and open the door (Assuming there's an auxiliary node in the car for receiving remote commands when the car's off), bust into the car's node and hack yourself an Admin account as stealthily as possible, and then plug in physically to the car and use its node to Jam on the Fly using the car's node as you drive it to a remote, matrix-isolated garage for cleaning. Assuming you don't get caught hacking it, that prevents the car's RFID tags from communicating at all on the way and it prevents the car's node from doing anything incriminating. Then once you get it home, you strip the whole thing down to the frame and run over it with a tag buster and a signal scanner, put on a morphing license plate and all the gear to make it look legit, and you hire someone to forge the registration and service data over the car's history. If you don't want to keep it, you can probably just take 15 to 20% of the car's value and dump it off to some shady characters wherever they may be.

We've moved on to SR5 and haven't stolen any cars since, but in our SR4 games it was always assumed the node is on 24/7. Your commlink is your ID/car key so the car has to listen. Maglocks are slaved to the car's node to let you in.

Also, why would manufacturers not have AROs up always showing make/model/features/pricing and a link to the dealer's page? Seems like a waste of advertising opportunity.