I have been looking at the joy of shotguns in the new edition and honestly I like what I see. They are cheap, they are powerful, and they are available. Let's take a look at these beasts for a moment:

From the core book, the Defiance T-250 is the cheapest longarm in the game and is a solid contender for best damage to cost ratio in the game. It's also at 4R availability, putting on par with the most available firearms in each category except tasers. It rocks 10P damage and an AP of -1, and when loaded with slugs is on par with SMGs for range.

However, the fact is that shotguns are only mediocre when loaded with slugs due to their slow rate of fire and low-average accuracy, a combination that mean while they hit harder than pretty much anything else in their price range they pay for it by not hitting as often.

What everyone cares about isn't the slugs, it's how badass a shotgun is when loaded with shot. On that front, I am happy to say that 5th edition has done shotguns proud. Now obviously the flaw with loading any weapon with flechette-type ammo is that it doesn't penetrate armor very well, and shotguns are not magically exempt from this flaw. However, the fact is that most shotguns have high enough base damage that this isn't an issue except against very heavily armoured foes, in which case you're probably better off with a rifle full of APDS in any case. So why is shot good?
Well, at narrow choke targets get a flat -1 on their dodge, with no effect on weapon power. In and of itself this means a shotgun loaded with shot will outclass any other weapon with the same base damage and loadout firing at the same rate. However, where shotguns truly come into their own is when dealing with large numbers of light targets at short range, as the medium and wide choke options are hard to dodge, hit multiple targets without splitting dicepools, and are generally one of the most ammo-effective ways to fight in the current edition.

Let's run an example.
Killjoy the street sam is in a barrens bar when someone calls her stumpy. Dwarf or no, she doesn't have to take that kind of drek so hauls off and floors the guy with a single punch to the groin. Unfortunately the guy had some friends and a fight breaks out. Nothing unusual here, this is the barrens after all. However, it turns out that the guy was important in the local gang so his four buddies escalate things by pulling pistols.
Fortunately, Killjoy has her trusty sawn-off Defiance T-250 hidden under her lined coat so whips it out and lets them have it, medium choke.
For the sake of this we're assuming that the gangers are the street scum types depicted on page 382 of the SR5 core book. We're also assuming that our chromed dwarf has an implanted smartlink and a smartgun system, along with a base dicepool of about 13 for a total of 15 dice.

Now it's a safe bet that the street sammie with wired reflexes (and seriously, how many of them don't have at least basic initiative boosters?) is probably going to go before the street trash. Simple action to ready the weapon, free action to adjust the settings with smartlink, then simple action to blow the baddies away.
15 dice averages 5 hits, and I think it's safe to assume that the gangers are all within the 15m short range for a shotgun with shot (the sawnoff uses heavy pistol ranges with slugs, not sure if that also applies with shot), so she can hit up to two targets with a single shot and they're at -3 dice to dodge.

Now this leaves the gangers with a healthy 3 dice apiece to dodge, which averages 1 hit each and drops Killjoy's net hits to 4. Each ganger now has to soak 14P damage (9 base, +2 shot, -1 choke, 4 net hits) on 18 dice (9 armour, +4 shot, +4 body, +1 toughness) which averages 6 hits, dropping them down to a mere 8 damage each and sending them both sprawling onto their asses. Not bad for a single shot.
The gangers now get to act, firing their Browning Ultra-powered side-arms at the dwarf. The first 2 are rocking 9 dice each, while the two wounded gangers are spending their turns getting back up. Assuming an initial dodge pool of 9 (far from unreasonable for our street sammie) and assuming each thug fires a semi-auto burst, we're looking at both thugs hitting at 1 net hit on average. A dwarf with body 6, aluminium bone lacing, 3 points of orthoskin and a lined coat is throwing 21 dice to soak the hits, and the combo isn't exactly a massive resource drain for even a starting sammie. 21 dice averages 7 hits against 9 damage per hit, meaning that Killjoy has taken 4 stun from the experience. Hardly out for the count.

Now things get interesting. Killjoy fires a semi-auto burst and uses her free action to split her attack. She's now hitting all 4 targets at -5 to dodge for each of them, splitting her dice pools 7 and 7, averaging 2 hits per target. the fresh guys get 1 dice each to dodge and the wounded ones don't even get that, so we can assume that we're hitting everyone with full force. Now even though the attack is only dealing stun this time due to poor penetration it's still doing 6 damage per target, taking the already wounded warriors out of the fight and knocking the other two on their asses and enforcing the cycle of hurting. At this point the fight is pretty much over, with a total cost to Killjoy of four rounds of shot and some minor bruises. Not bad for the least powerful variant of the cheapest and least powerful shotgun, hey?


There is a rather important addendum to this: Shotguns CANNOT BE SILENCED! This makes them worthless for covert operations unless shit and fan have been introduced to each other, a situation that is far from ideal.

To sum up: Shotgun good. Shop smart, shop S-mart. And always use the right tool for the job.

I really wish Sliver Guns and Needlers got to use the Choke rules. It seems limited to shotguns and the Roomsweeper.

I like this a lot better than it was in 3e - where shotguns basically killed anything that wasn't wearing Hardened Armor.

In 3e, the situation you described, up until Killjoy fired the shot. Let say he is also using a Defiance T-250 shotgun, which did 10S damage.

Kill joy uses a simple action to ready the weapon, then a free action to set the choke to 2. Let's assume all 4 gangers are within 3 meters of each other, and that 2 are in front, and 2 in back. He takes a couple steps backwards, and fires.

Assume skill 6, plus combat pool of at least 6, plus smartlink, plus custom grip, plus enhanced articulation. (I could add more dice, but let's use these as an example.)

His base TN is 4. -1 for smartlink, -2 more because of the spread. He rolls 14 dice, needing 2's, so 12 successes is about right.

The gangers get combat pool - let's give them average stats of 4. We start with the two in the front. They elect not to dodge, because they need 4's to dodge, and because of the flechette ammo, it is better for them to use their combat pool to resist damage. Now they resist damage. Assume Armor Jackets, Ballistic of 5, Impact 3. Their TN to resist is 10, -2 for spread, -6 (since flechette ammo uses either the ballistic rating of the armor, or double the impact, whichever is higher) - so 2s. They are rolling 10 dice (4 body, plus 6 combat pool). Average 8 successes. So Killjoy has 4 net successes, raising the damage from S to D (with 2 successes extra) dropping both gangers.

The two gangers in the back are now hit by the spread, but since they had two gangers between them and the blast, they now get two more dice. So they roll 12 dice each, let's say they get 10 successes. Guess what - they still take a D wound and go down.

Here is where 3e is messed up. If you had that exact same situation, only the gangers were wearing heavy security armor, with a helmet, it doesn't change the calculations at all - because all armor did was to reduce the power of the attack - and an armor jacket was already sufficient to do that.

Not to nitpick, but a couple things wrong with the above. I play 3rd ed exclusively, and had to mention it. First of all, unless he's using smart goggles, it's -2TN from that. After that the guys in the back would also get a power reduction of 2. In the end, it works out worse for the gangers :/

Actually, shotguns can be suppressed as very well demonstrated on the movie "No Country for Old Men", it just tears the ass out of the suppressor pretty quick if you use shot loads. There are some really good suppressor makers out there can can make a can (gun dweeb for suppressor) last for a hundred rounds or so, but the pattern won't be as nice as without a can.

Shotgun patterns aren't half the size of the shotgun patterns you see in the rules above unless you're using something like a Duckbill Choke. These were used by the SEALs in Vietnam to change the pattern of shot from a circle to a horizontal oval. They used #4 buckshot in Vietnam (why shoot at them 9 times with each pull of the trigger when you can shoot at them 26 times instead?) with these chokes. 00 buckshot tore the ass out of the chokes and didn't work for shit because the shot weighs too much.

As a side note, there are tons of LEO stories about suspects being shot with 00 buckshot at very close ranges (we're talking 5-7 meters, since you're used to metric) where the shot hit a leather biker jacket and didn't even have the power left over to penetrate the skin. Shot is cool, but it's not the "Cuisinart o' Death" the rules above make it to be. Each individual pellet from a 2-3/4" 00 shotgun shell (full boat, not low recoil) has the energy of about a .38 Special bullet. There isn't a single issued ballistic vest out there (LE or Milspec) that won't stop multiple .38 Special hits. Also, keep in mind that the .38 Special was known as "The Widow Maker" here in the States because of all of the officers getting killed by suspects despite the suspect being shot by the officer carrying the .38 Special, often multiple times.

No problem picking nits, I do the same thing - but you are incorrect.

With regards to Smartlink modifier - they get a -1, not a -2.
SR3- page 117:
"Shotguns equipped with smartlinks that fire shot rounds
receive a –1 target number modifier. Shotguns get no benefits
from smart goggles or laser sights."

And with regards to the guys in the back - same page: - they get 2 extra dice, not a power reduction of 2.
"Award an additional die to the target’s Damage Resistance
Test for every other target within the spread in front of the target. If,
for example, a character was standing back a bit and three other
targets happened to be between him and the gun, that character
gets 3 extra dice for his Damage Resistance Test."

I did some math a while ago, figured I'd share it.

Shotgun: Slug vs. Spread

Protagonist: Street Samurai
Agility: 6 (9, Cyberarms)
Longarms: 3 (4) +2 (Smartlink)

Enfield AS-7, 4(6) Accuracy
13P, AP -1
15P, AP +4

9 + 4 + 2 = 15 dice.
5 hits.

Narrow: -1 defense dice.
Medium, Short Range: -1 DV, -3 Defense dice.
Wide, Short Range: -3 DV, -5 Defense dice.

Opposition:
Mouth Breather
Body 3
Reaction 3
Intuition 3
Armor: 0

Slug: 5 hits to defend against. 3 Reaction + 3 Intuition = 6, 2 hits. 3 hits to soak.
16P damage against 3 body. 1 hit. 15P damage, dead.
Narrow: 5 hits to defend against. -1 defense dice. 5 dice, 1 hit. 4 hits to soak.
19P, AP +4. 2 hits. 17P damage, dead.
Medium: 5 hits to defend against, -3 defence dice. 1 hit. 4 hits to soak.
15P, -1 DV, +4 hits, for a total of 18P, AP +4. 2 hits. 16P damage, dead.
Wide, Short Range: 5 hits to defend against, -5 defense dice. 0 hits. 5 hits to soak.
15P, -3 DV, +5 hits for a total of 17P, AP +4. 17P damage against 3 body +4AP. 2 hits. 15P damage, dead.

Winner: Narrow Spread Flechette.

Opposition:
Ganger
Body 4
Reaction 3 (4) (on cram)
Intuition 3
Armor 9

Slug: 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition = 7 dice, 2 hits. 3 hits to soak.
16P, AP -1. 4 Body + 9 Armor - AP 1 = 12 dice. 4 hits. 12P. Dead.
Narrow: 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition -1 defense die = 6 dice. 2 hits. 3 to soak.
18P, AP +4. 4 Body + 9 Armor + 4 AP = 17 dice. 5 hits. 13P. Dead.
Medium. 5 hits to defend. 4 reaction + 3 intuition -3 defense = 4 dice. 1 hit. 4 hits to soak.
18P, AP +4 (15 + 4 hits, -1 from medium spread). 13P. Dead.
Wide. 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition -5 spread = 2 dice. No hits. 5 to soak.
17P, AP +4 (15, +5 hits, -3 from wide spread). 4 Body + 9 armor + 4 AP = 5 hits. 12P. Dead.

Winner: Tie, Narrow and Medium Spread.

Opposition:
Corpsec
Body 4
Reaction 4
Intuition 3
Armor 12

Slug: 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition = 7 dice, 2 hits. 3 hits to soak.
16P, AP -1. 4 Body + 12 Armor - AP 1 = 15 dice. 5 hits. 11P. Dead.
Narrow: 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition -1 defense die = 6 dice. 2 hits. 3 to soak.
18P, AP +4. 4 Body + 12 Armor + 4 AP = 6 hits. 12P. Dead.
Medium. 5 hits to defend. 4 reaction + 3 intuition -3 defense = 4 dice. 1 hit. 4 hits to soak.
18P, AP +4 (15 + 4 hits, -1 from medium spread). 4 Body + 12 Armor + 4 AP = 6 hits. 12P. Dead.
Wide. 5 hits to defend against. 4 reaction + 3 intuition - 5 spread = 2 dice. No hits. 5 to soak.
17P, AP +4 (15, +5 hits, -3 from wide spread). 4 Body + 12 armor + 4 AP = 6 hits. 11P. Dead.

Winner: Tie, Narrow and Medium Spread Flechette.

Opposition:
Elite Corpsec
Body 6
Reaction 7
Intuition 5
Armor 18

Slug: 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition = 12 dice, 4 hits. 1 hits to soak.
14P, AP -1. 6 Body + 18 Armor - AP 1 = 23 dice. 7 hits. 7 Stun.
Narrow: 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition -1 defense die = 11 dice. 3 hits. 2 to soak.
17P, AP +4. 6 Body + 18 Armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 8 Stun.
Medium. 5 hits to defend. 7 reaction + 5 intuition -3 defense = 9 dice. 3 hit. 2 hits to soak.
16P, AP +4 (15 + 2 hits, -1 from medium spread). 6 Body + 18 Armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 7 Stun.
Wide. 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition - 5 spread = 7 dice. 2 hits. 3 to soak.
15P, AP +4 (15, +3 hits, -3 from wide spread). 6 Body + 18 armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 6 Stun.

Winner: Narrow Spread Flechette.

Opposition (vs. Long Burst)
Elite Corpsec
Body 6
Reaction 7
Intuition 5
Armor 18

Slug: 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition - 5 dice (Long burst) = 7 dice, 2 hits. 3 hits to soak.
16P, AP -1. 6 Body + 18 Armor - AP 1 = 23 dice. 7 hits. 9 Stun.
Narrow: 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition -6 defense = 6 dice. 2 hits. 3 to soak.
18P, AP +4. 6 Body + 18 Armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 9 Stun.
Medium. 5 hits to defend. 7 reaction + 5 intuition -8 defense = 4 dice. 1 hit. 4 hits to soak.
18P, AP +4 (15 + 4 hits, -1 from medium spread). 6 Body + 18 Armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 9 Stun.
Wide. 5 hits to defend against. 7 reaction + 5 intuition - 10 defense = 2 dice. 0 hits. 5 to soak.
17P, AP +4 (15, +5 hits, -3 from wide spread). 6 Body + 18 armor + 4 AP = 28 dice. 9 hits. 8 Stun.

Winner: Tie: Slug, Narrow and Medium Spread Flechette.

Do you get the +4AP if you aren't wearing any armor? I don't think it changes "the winner" results, but I wanted to check given the nice example.

It is a great example - thanks Dr.

@Jack, - you don't get the +4 bonus if you aren't wearing armor.

Page 169
Armor Penetration
Certain weapons are better at punching holes in armor
than others. A weapon’s Armor Penetration (AP) represents
this penetrating ability. AP modifies a target’s
Armor rating when he makes a damage resistance test.
Some weapons fare poorly against armor, and so actually
raise the value of the armor. If the target is not
wearing armor, this bonus does not apply. If a weapon’s
AP reduces an armor’s rating to 0 or below, the
character loses all his armor dice on his damage resistance
test but does not subtract from his Body.

That's odd, but that's how it's written.

In any event, I think getting shot with a shotgun at close range in street clothes is going to end badly for you no matter how you slice it.
-DrZ

Yeah, I just think it is important to note that it would appear to cut both ways. Stuff that gives bonus dice to resist for armor (flechette/shot) isn't penalized if no armor is involved (like the Mouth Breathers above).

We don't have a lot to go on in 5th edition yet, but armor was an odd issue for critters in 4th edition. Most of the animals, most notably in Running Wild, had 0 armor, but often lots of body. Elephants and Hippos had 0 armor, and even a Rhino or Turtle had just a tad of armor. In general, a shotgun was the perfect hunting weapon for animals, with a shotgun being more bang for your cash than an elephant gun. The PJMSS Elephant gun is a single shot, double barrel rifle for $6,000. It does 9p at -1 AP. A Remington 990 with Flechettes does 9p(f) at +5 AP on SA with 8 in the mag for only $550 and a much lower Restriction. Because Elephants in 4th edition don't actually have any armor, the shotgun wins. Hell, for $1,000, still a 1/6th of the Elephant gun, you can have a FULL AUTO shotgun.
While very few Shadowrunners hunt elephants, you can see the same setup in the Paracritters: most of them lack armor values, which makes shotguns your go-to for paracritter hunting.

Looking at the few animals in the 5th edition book, it looks Armor may be slightly more common now. It's now a basic feature of some creatures instead of a "creature power." A lot of the paracritters, and even a mundane, have small armor values in 5th that didn't in 4th. IE: Hell Hounds, Barghests, Ghouls, Sharks, etc.

I've been thinking that the bonus to armour for shot should be greater. Say +7 or 9, because with +5 you're still always better off taking the +2 damage because the extra armour returns less than 2 successes.

Then the trade off would be better accuracy against less penetration. At the moment the only time you don't want to be using shot is against spirits.

At short range.

I think the math changes somewhat at medium and long. I know my group tends to be lazy and ignore a lot of modifiers, but 15 meters isn't *that* far.

-DrZ