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Trillinon
I wrote this after going over the Cash Rewards section in the SR5 book. I really like what they came up with in a general sense, but the implementation doesn't work for the style of game I run where the price of a run is negotiated up front. So I've re imagined the same concept, but from a Shadowrunner's perspective.

As this is my first draft, I wanted to share and get feedback. My first concern is that there may be too many +1 modifiers to be useful. I want the example modifires to be appropriate for the level of added risk, so I may end up knocking some down to a +0.5.

Please let me know that you think.



Negotiating the price of a run.

Step 1: Determine the price of a milk run.


A milk run is a job with no extraordinary danger, difficulty, or moral implications. The price an individual runner or team charges for a milk run forms the basis by which you can start negotiations. This price can range between 2000 and 5000, depending on your skill and reputation. (3000 is a good base price. Increase this by 100 per point of Street Cred, and subtract 100 per point of Notoriety. The optimal Public Awareness in most cases is around 4 to 6. Below that, and your reputation isn't widespread enough to be useful. Above that, and it's difficult to Mr. Johnson to claim deniablility.)


Step 2: Adjust for morality.

You should add 500 to 1000 to your milk run price for a job that requires you to be a rat bastard. Assuming your morality is for sale, of course. Smilarly, subtracting 500 to 1000 for hooding or jobs that give you the warm fuzzies is usually appropriate. How much you adjust and for what is really up to you.


Step 3: Charge more for everything you can.

Is the job particularly dangerious or difficult? Are you being asked to ghost the run, leaving no trace of your presence? Have you been explicitly asked not to loot anything? All of these increase what you can charge.

When discussing the job with Mr. Johnson, or doing research prior to the deal, determine each unique challenge and threat that is beyond what you'd consider a milk run. Does the target facility have a High Threat Response team? Count that. An on site Spider? Count that too. Numerous paracritters, Spirits on site, having to negotiate with the Yakuza, or entering a Mitsuhama Zero Zone are all good examples of extra challenges.

Tally up the total extra challenges and multiply that by your morality adjusted milk-run price. This is the rough value you should base negotations around.


Step 4: Negotiate

Now that you have a rough baseline of what to charge, you can negotiate terms. Who pays for special equipment? Will Mr. Johnson cover any medical costs? Will there be extra looting opportunities? What form with payment take? All of these and more might be factors.


CODE
EXAMPLE COST MODIFIERS
      
Combat expected                    +1
High Threat Response team on call  +1
High Threat Response team on site  +2
Opposing runner team               +2
Outnumbered by three to one        +1
      
Spider on Site                     +1
Opposing technomancer              +1
Must contend with multiple IC      +1
      
Opposing magic user                +1
Numerous paracritters              +1
Spirits on site                    +1
Entering a metaplane               +1
      
Dealing with a dragon              +3
Dealing with a syndicate           +1
Going against a megacorp           +2
Risk of increased public profile   +1
      
Not allowed to loot                +1
Presence must never be detected    +1
Exposure to hazardous materials    +1
Must transport person or animal    +1
Must transport particularly
dangerous person of animal    +2
      
Must travel a large distance       +1
Entering Mitsuhama Zero Zone       +1
Visiting a wild environment        +1
thorya
It's an interesting start. How do you use your modifiers in this system? Do multiple similar ones stack? (like if there is a spider on site and the systems running IC is that +2 even though a spider will probably almost always have IC and if there are multiple spiders how do you hash that out?)
Why are moral issues handled differently than the other modifiers?

Also, it seems like you're looking at modifiers stacking pretty quickly with this, since any megacorp site is likely to automatically come with several of those security modifiers, but even large modifiers don't necessarily reflect the danger of a job (since a +6 modifier's still less than 20k nuyen). Not sure if that's what you want or not.


We use a list price as a basis for how much a job should cost, based on the type of job (surveillance is much, much cheaper than a heist for example) and have a similar system of modifiers but usually not flat out multipliers.

I think in my next game I'm going to shift to a quote system, the Johnson tells them what needs done, the team does the leg work, and then the team comes back with a quote. The Johnson decides if it's not even worth talking with them and walks, or they start negotiating. Something like this as a starting point for that sort of play could be interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Johnson just coming to a meet and stating the price and expecting the team to decide yes/no right there with only the Johnson's word for what the real risks are.
Sendaz
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 3 2014, 05:32 PM) *
I think in my next game I'm going to shift to a quote system, the Johnson tells them what needs done, the team does the leg work, and then the team comes back with a quote. The Johnson decides if it's not even worth talking with them and walks, or they start negotiating. Something like this as a starting point for that sort of play could be interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Johnson just coming to a meet and stating the price and expecting the team to decide yes/no right there with only the Johnson's word for what the real risks are.

While that probably is healthier for the runners, the Johnson should not be disclosing too much prior to the runners accepting the mission either, especially if time critical or if the legwork could potentially tip off the target in the first place.

Yeah, that run on Renraku you were wanting us to do and we said we would think about it? Bernie tripped an alarm in the VP's terminal and they are gonna be on high alert for a while so I think we may have to pass on that. nyahnyah.gif

Plus you have to remember from the Johnson point of view, there is always someone willing to do the job, it's just a matter of who.

Again it would depend on the Johnson/team interaction. If they have worked together before then there could be more give between them.

You know our work and we can do this, but you're gonna have to offer quite a bit more if you want that Mercurial by Moonlight painting taken out of Lofwyr's office...
Trillinon
QUOTE (thorya @ Mar 3 2014, 01:32 PM) *
It's an interesting start. How do you use your modifiers in this system? Do multiple similar ones stack? (like if there is a spider on site and the systems running IC is that +2 even though a spider will probably almost always have IC and if there are multiple spiders how do you hash that out?)
Why are moral issues handled differently than the other modifiers?

Also, it seems like you're looking at modifiers stacking pretty quickly with this, since any megacorp site is likely to automatically come with several of those security modifiers, but even large modifiers don't necessarily reflect the danger of a job (since a +6 modifier's still less than 20k nuyen). Not sure if that's what you want or not.


We use a list price as a basis for how much a job should cost, based on the type of job (surveillance is much, much cheaper than a heist for example) and have a similar system of modifiers but usually not flat out multipliers.

I think in my next game I'm going to shift to a quote system, the Johnson tells them what needs done, the team does the leg work, and then the team comes back with a quote. The Johnson decides if it's not even worth talking with them and walks, or they start negotiating. Something like this as a starting point for that sort of play could be interesting. I'm not a huge fan of the Johnson just coming to a meet and stating the price and expecting the team to decide yes/no right there with only the Johnson's word for what the real risks are.


As I mentioned, I'm basing this on the Cash Rewards advice given in the GM section of the book. Modifiers are totaled, then multiplied by the base cost. What similar modifiers you stack is more of a gut check, but in general the answer would be yes.

The book has morality having a 10-20% impact on the total price, regardless of danger, so I kept that. It better reflects the idea of, "Normally, I'd charge you this, but since I'm saving a bunch of puppies, I'll cut you a 15% break"

This is meant as a tool. These are suppose to help you come to a reasonable price, not represent a pure mechanical determination of what a run must cost.

It's also worth noting that the price is supposed to be for an individual runner, not a whole team. A team of four would ask for quadruple the result. So, yes, I am concerned that the price might rise too quickly, which is part of the feedback I'm looking for.
X-Kalibur
I'd say dealing with a dragon should be much higher and HTR or Firewatch response might need to bump up to 'runner level. Plenty of 'runners have lost to HTRs.
CanRay
15 and a five-day a week monthly bus pass (No good on weekends.).
Trillinon
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 3 2014, 02:53 PM) *
I'd say dealing with a dragon should be much higher and HTR or Firewatch response might need to bump up to 'runner level. Plenty of 'runners have lost to HTRs.


Not a bad thought. I'm thinking of separating HTR on site from HTR on call.
Trillinon
I've updated the list to reflect feedback.
psychophipps
I typically use 500-1000 nuyen.gif per member, per day. If it's a short-term gig, it's 50-100 nuyen.gif per member, per hour. Expenses are extra (food, lodging, etc.). Lower side of this pay scale for less experience, danger, and/or a poor reputation. Higher pay for more experience, danger, and/or an excellent reputation. Typically each level of Street cred adds 50 nuyen.gif per day to character's base pay. Each level of Notoriety will typically remove 100 nuyen.gif per point, depending on what it's for. One man's "psycho" is another man's "hydraulic systems engineer", as an example.

Fixers handle all monies and schedule the meeting with the Mr. Johnson. Latest dates of completion are given at the meet, if it's a factor, and the expected results of the operation. The team will meet, determine the viability of the operation with their capabilities, and give Mr. Johnson a timeframe for completion. Bonus structures can be added for exceptional results and "Spoils of War" are fully expected as add-on income for the Shadowrunners.

This said, the characters are fully expected to earn their pay and to produce quick, efficient results in the client's best interest. The team is expected to "roll with the punches" if things go bad. Get a rep as a slacker milking the client, a pussy, or a fuck-up and you'll be a low-renter for the rest of your life. The client is hiring a team of Shadowrunners for their ability to improvise, adapt, and overcome.

The team will answer only to the client during the assignment and are expected to keep them posted about any important developments.

Half the expected pay is a deposit, the other half plus any bonus structure is paid upon completion. 25-50% of the base pay goes to the fixer for their services, negotiated normally, the rest is distributed among the surviving team members.

Screwing the team earns you a bad rep as a client. Deliberately leaving out pertinent information earns you a bad rep as a client. Honor is a huge part of this business. You give a Fixer a rough ride and hurt their rep as a go-to and you'll see what lengths they will go-to to make sure it never happens again.
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 11 2014, 09:08 PM) *
I typically use 500-1000 nuyen.gif per member, per day. If it's a short-term gig, it's 50-100 nuyen.gif per member, per hour. Expenses are extra (food, lodging, etc.). Lower side of this pay scale for less experience, danger, and/or a poor reputation. Higher pay for more experience, danger, and/or an excellent reputation. Typically each level of Street cred adds 50 nuyen.gif per day to character's base pay. Each level of Notoriety will typically remove 100 nuyen.gif per point, depending on what it's for.


... That's ridiculously low; it takes 5-10 days of running just to pay a Middle lifestyle. Where the hell does the downtime come in? Shouldn't your team be laying low between jobs?

Hell, there's massive problems with a daily pay scale like that in Shadowrun anyways - a 1 or 2 day job can very easily be worth more than a 10 day job; in fact, the same job in less time should be worth more, because you don't get as much time for legwork to mitigate the danger.
psychophipps
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 11 2014, 09:22 PM) *
... That's ridiculously low; it takes 5-10 days of running just to pay a Middle lifestyle. Where the hell does the downtime come in? Shouldn't your team be laying low between jobs?

Hell, there's massive problems with a daily pay scale like that in Shadowrun anyways - a 1 or 2 day job can very easily be worth more than a 10 day job; in fact, the same job in less time should be worth more, because you don't get as much time for legwork to mitigate the danger.


Well, when the "spoils of war" are a mint-condition fully-customized combat aerodyne, it tends to pay for itself. Also "bonus structure" was included and can be quite lucrative, if the 'runners are willing to go the extra mile for the client.
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 11 2014, 10:00 PM) *
Well, when the "spoils of war" are a mint-condition fully-customized combat aerodyne, it tends to pay for itself. Also "bonus structure" was included and can be quite lucrative, if the 'runners are willing to go the extra mile for the client.


That makes a little more sense of it - good way to lace in progression, actually. Still, it does suck for the guys who aren't getting what they're after. You're still just scraping by at one run a month.
psychophipps
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 12 2014, 01:51 AM) *
That makes a little more sense of it - good way to lace in progression, actually. Still, it does suck for the guys who aren't getting what they're after. You're still just scraping by at one run a month.


It also strongly depends on the style of play your group enjoys. If you're out getting into firefights with Knight Errant and shredding several square blocks on each 'run with mil-spec weaponry, this chart won't be doing you much good because, as you said, your characters won't even be able to feed themselves. If you're playing an investigation/legwork and minimal collateral damage game to seriously curtail law enforcement response, it works out quite well.

To be honest, most 'runs shouldn't be "Go light fires and blow stuff up!" as it puts a Hugh Jass spotlight on what the 'run was about. Spotlighting a job does a really good job of taking the "Shadow" out of Shadowrun. The best Shadowruns are the ones that the target doesn't know they were a target of.
kzt
Let me ask this set of questions:
How much time and effort would it take the runner team to plan out and then and loot a jewelry store over a long weekend?
Would this make them more or less profit then what they would make running against an megacorp high security site?
Would the jewelry store be more or less dangerous than the megacorp high security site?
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 12 2014, 09:23 AM) *
To be honest, most 'runs shouldn't be "Go light fires and blow stuff up!" as it puts a Hugh Jass spotlight on what the 'run was about. Spotlighting a job does a really good job of taking the "Shadow" out of Shadowrun. The best Shadowruns are the ones that the target doesn't know they were a target of.


And when runs go that way, you can't run for a while, because you need to hole up or even go on the run. It doesn't really fit to set the pay based on if that doesn't happen - rather, the pay should be set based on the risk of that happening as well as other risks, and while that risk may vary it will never be zero unless made so by factors specific to the team (factors which should lead to them getting paid more, not less).
psychophipps
QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 12 2014, 04:22 PM) *
Let me ask this set of questions:
How much time and effort would it take the runner team to plan out and then and loot a jewelry store over a long weekend?
Would this make them more or less profit then what they would make running against an megacorp high security site?
Would the jewelry store be more or less dangerous than the megacorp high security site?


Excellent point. Why aren't they out knocking over jewelry stores over a long weekend? Hell, why aren't they learning something about hacking and simply stealing a bunch of identities to run credit card scams from the comfort of a food court booth at the local mall?
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 12 2014, 07:31 PM) *
Excellent point. Why aren't they out knocking over jewelry stores over a long weekend? Hell, why aren't they learning something about hacking and simply stealing a bunch of identities to run credit card scams from the comfort of a food court booth at the local mall?


His point is that running is supposed to offer a better risk/reward ratio.
psychophipps
And my point is, "Why are they just Shadowrunning?"
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 12 2014, 08:23 PM) *
And my point is, "Why are they just Shadowrunning?"


Because they're runners, not petty criminals? If you can make more money stealing cars, or need to steal cars to make your money, and you're not in a street level game, something's wrong.

A shadowrunner is not a general-purpose criminal; in fact, criminal versatility is not an especially common thing and a component of the PCL-R.
psychophipps
So the Phys Ad teaches Defensive Tactics to the local security forces on the side. Your Gun Bunny teaches firearms and melee weapon classes. Your Weapons Specialist teaches armoury classes and small unit tactics. The Mage teaches a few seminars on whatever. The Rigger and/or Hacker works with small startups on their own specialties.

The way I look at it, every nuyen.gif is around $2 US in current money. My scale shows that they're making from $500-$1000 take-home per day, per person, plus bonuses and "spoils of war". Now, this is a baseline. You want some Amateur Hour, Drugstore Cowboy bullshit, you can easy double or triple (or even more) the rate. Not my fault that living in your lousy apartment from college costs $4000 a month and bullets cost $4 a piece, while a smartlinked, top-notch firearm costs only $700 in Shadowrun.

If anything, it might be pointing a pretty good finger at what the writers think a 'runners priorities should be...
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 12 2014, 08:57 PM) *
So the Phys Ad teaches Defensive Tactics to the local security forces on the side. Your Gun Bunny teaches firearms and melee weapon classes. Your Weapons Specialist teaches armoury classes and small unit tactics. The Mage teaches a few seminars on whatever. The Rigger and/or Hacker works with small startups on their own specialties.

The way I look at it, every nuyen.gif is around $2 US in current money. My scale shows that they're making from $500-$1000 take-home per day, per person, plus bonuses and "spoils of war". Now, this is a baseline. You want some Amateur Hour, Drugstore Cowboy bullshit, you can easy double or triple (or even more) the rate. Not my fault that living in your lousy apartment from college costs $4000 a month and bullets cost $4 a piece, while a smartlinked, top-notch firearm costs only $700 in Shadowrun.

If anything, it might be pointing a pretty good finger at what the writers think a 'runners priorities should be...


Shadowrunning is very much a full time gig. In contrast, what you're describing is very much in the auspices of the street level game. In fact, I find your assumption of a Low lifestyle very revealing.
psychophipps
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 13 2014, 12:39 AM) *
Shadowris very much a full time gig. In contrast, what you're describing is very much in the auspices of the street level game. In fact, I find your assumption of a Low lifestyle very revealing.
j

Yeah, it reveals that CGL had their heads up their asses again when it comes to housing costs...

A decent condo or house, by todays standards, with utilities and food runs you $10,000 per month. So all the white collar office types need to make $180,000+ per year so they can afford a nice car, trips to outlet mall to stay trendy, and the occasional vacay.
sk8bcn
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 13 2014, 02:38 PM) *
Yeah, it reveals that CGL had their heads up their asses again when it comes to housing costs...


That's just idiotic. IRL, your living costs are dependent on where you live. Sorry but you'll have a way different lifestyle when living in New York, London or Paris than if you live in a small town. In the SR paradygm, you have metroplex of unseen size IRL. You've made some kind of analysis to expect the effect on appartement location prices? Also the effects of all the crisis UCAS went through?

Beeing able to blame CLG when your own assumption is so weak is astonishing.

That beeing said, for me a guideline that says : you have a luxury lifestyle at 10000 nuyen is way enough to help me decide what kind of payment I want for the team. I find the table kinda weak by the way because, when negociating, it doesn't work that standardized. The human factor remains the most important part. For exemple, the same job offered by a M. Johnson or an individual would pay differently, because the individual maybe doesn't have so much money to give.

I go for a rate of 1 run roughly per month and want the average gain to be around 10 000 nuyens. That means PC can have a middle lifestyle + sparing for gear.

They can use the downtime to:
- Make more money trough little jobs
- Work on something
- Work to get new contacts
....
sk8bcn
(ps: I'm maybe a bit harsh, but CLG bashing starts to go too far at my taste).
kzt
QUOTE (sk8bcn @ Mar 13 2014, 07:06 AM) *
(ps: I'm maybe a bit harsh, but CLG bashing starts to go too far at my taste).

It has reached that point occasionally, but the fact that they can't seem to write rules that make any sense is a perfectly reasonable topic for here. The fact that they published Bogota! and it's Neo-Nazi jewbuster adventure is a pretty good sign that nobody in an editorial or oversight position have any sense of what is or isn't offensive, or any understanding of the game rules, the game setting, or ability to do ANY research. This including typing bogota into google and skimming the Wikipedia article, which would point out that it's high up the mountains and not anywhere near the ocean.
psychophipps
Been thinking about this today. If you want some serious scratch for a given 'run to "make it worth your while", as it were, why not simply look up the highest penalty for the worst felony the team will be committing and multiply it by 1K nuyen.gif ? Manslaughter is 10-30 years so you're looking at 10-30K nuyen.gif . Kidnapping is 15-30 so you can see it being about the same.

Just find the local jurisdiction of your game, look up the penalty for the crime du jour, and use that as the starting point for your negotiations with Mr. Johnson.
RHat
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Mar 13 2014, 07:38 AM) *
j

Yeah, it reveals that CGL had their heads up their asses again when it comes to housing costs...

A decent condo or house, by todays standards, with utilities and food runs you $10,000 per month. So all the white collar office types need to make $180,000+ per year so they can afford a nice car, trips to outlet mall to stay trendy, and the occasional vacay.


Or, you know, that it's a freaking corporacratic dystopia, so modern costs have basically no relevancy to figuring the cost of living?
psychophipps
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 13 2014, 08:53 PM) *
Or, you know, that it's a freaking corporacratic dystopia, so modern costs have basically no relevancy to figuring the cost of living?


And adding the fact that the Seattle Metroplex is a Shadowrun Cold War West Berlin or pre-1997 Hong Kong (basically a location where there is no chance of expansion as there is no place to expand to so real estate is at a ridiculous premium), it begins to make more sense. The splat materials that offer a description of who has the various lifestyle levels makes pretty much no sense unless you consider, in the terms of the writing's context, that "ordinary successful wage earners" is limited to the people that make the aforementioned 90,000 nuyen.gif -plus annually. Pretty harsh limitation for determining success, but I can certainly see where it's coming from in the real estate broker's spiel to convince the "successful wage earners" to drop a very large deposit on property that will separate them from "the unwashed masses". You want to push the exclusiveness of the property while still connecting with their humble beginnings, after all.

Since I do everything I can to not set my games in Seattle (or really use any of the Shadowrun metaplot, past or present), this context doesn't hold a whole lot of water for my own uses. It makes sense, but in a very limited premise that my own game isn't based upon.

In short, I done fucked up. Mea Culpa.
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