I have been reading through the complex forms list and some of them seem downright counterproductive. Here's a couple that caught my eye:

Transcendent Grid: So you can avoid taking the -2 penalty for being on the wrong grid by... taking a -2 penalty to everything for sustaining. Net result? Not only are you still at a -2 penalty against the icon on the other grid, not only are you now at a -2 penalty against icons in your own grid, but the stuff on other grids can target you without penalty. oh, and you've taken fading. I will note that after a while it stops causing the sustaining penalty but still, not exactly great when jumping between grids is hardly difficult for a skilled hacker.

Resonance Spike: Resonance spike is what stunbolt would be if they could only hit astral targets, were resisted by 2 attributes instead of 1, and had an extra 3 points of drain. You deal X real damage to yourself in order to inflict up to X (and almost always considerably less due to resistance check) matrix damage to one target. Great trade, right?

Tattletale: Yay, you've increased the enemy's overwatch! Except that if your enemy is a spider that's completely worthless and if he's another criminal decker (as opposed to a corp decker) then you've just given his physical location to the men in black. You know, the place you're probably within a hundred meters of? Yeah, good work there!

Editor: For fading of level + 2 you'd want this power to do something more than you can do with an edit action and a computer check. Well that's nice! this form's only strength is the ability to edit files without marks on them, a powerful ability to be sure but given the resistance check you're likely better off just hacking the file and using an edit action.


Now there are some fairly good complex forms (EG Static Bomb, Cleaner, ect...) but still.

resonance spike: this is more a commentary on just how unappealing regular data spikes are, but against an equally competent opponent you're probably better off with resonance spike. why, you ask? because you can soak the drain, at least. failing at a data spike because your opponent just uses full defence deals damage that you can't soak. (note: i'm not saying it's *good* or anything. i'm just saying that it's actually not as much worse as it sounds, if you're fighting an opponent with solid defence).

tattletale: funny for trolling people, pretty much. normal people can't tell what their OS is, and have no way of knowing they have OS. so tattletale on them and wait a few hours. (unfortunately, it isn't reliable enough to let you get everything not being run by a GOD or demiGOD in a facility to brick at the same time).

editor: yeah, it sucks, but it does actually do better than an editor program. specifically, it lets you edit twice as much. no, it isn't worth taking the fading hit. but it is something.

Isn't Transcendent Grid Immediate? There shouldn't be a penalty for sustaining it.

Tattletale would be much better if it didn't require your target to already have an Overwatch Score. Most of the Complex Forms seem to be lackluster though

Permanent, so you need to sustain it for force rounds before it stops having a penalty and after that lasts for hits minutes.

As noted by Jaid, this power doesn't have the bounce back effect if you "miss." It also doesn't automatically give you away the same way Attack actions do on a success (although most spiders would wonder where the matrix damage they or their device just took came from), and it doesn't accrue Over-watch points for use.

Question: Does this complex form bypass file protection and databombs? It provides edit like abilities, which includes copying a file, without actually being an edit file matrix action.

I'm so glad I decided to stick with 4th Ed.

You and me both, though honestly there are a few elements I've taken from SR5 that are working well in my SR4a games.

What is this Force you speak of when discussing Technomancers? Methinks thou art confused.

I would expect so. Confused is my default state of being.

so has your GM relaxed his stance on you as far as technomancers and magic are concerned?

if so, i still recommend you don't build a technomancer. if you want a magical hacker, just make a magical hacker (ie an adept).

Trans Grid is an instant that lasts for minutes = hits.

of course, there's a bit of irony there.

SR5, p. 252, "Resonance Library": "...a Duration listed as either I for immediate (it happens instantly with no lasting effects)..." (bolding for emphasis).

they didn't even manage to get quite half a page through before that one goes wrong (the first indication that they didn't think this through very well is pulse storm. the CF doesn't actually say the noise stays, so i guess pulse storm is now worthy of being on fueldrop's list )

and of course, that also makes resonance spike even worse. you don't even permanently damage with it

static bomb immediately restores vision moments after use.

they really should have written that description better. or take some advice from Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Anyone who prefers the 4th Ed Matrix rules over 5th Ed must be a masochist.

or likes playing technomancers.

i mean, i do prefer the 5th edition matrix rules on the whole. but technomancers took a huge hit, going from being the ultimate power in the matrix (at the expense of effectiveness in the meatworld, although to be fair you could probably make a decent face as a side-role) to being kinda meh in the matrix (not even as good as a decker)... but they cost as much or more to build than a magician, just like they did when they were actually powerful.

i mean, technomancers only really looked crazy because people weren't considering that for the same costs, you could have a full magician that was crazy strong. when you consider that while sprites were good, they were generally decisively worse than spirits, and while the various complex forms and echos were good, they were generally not nearly as powerful, versatile, or universally applicable as spells and metamagic techniques... well, when viewed in that light, technomancers don't look so scary any more. a high rating machine sprite is really annoying, and hard to deal with, but a high force air spirit will just kill you all and laugh at your puny weapons (unless you have your own magician with some decent stun damage mana spells and a willingness to overcast).

Honestly I do like technomancers in SR4, and I don't see the SR5 matrix to be an improvement over the previous version (and have seen posts to help support that). From what I've been told, SR3's matrix rules were even worse.

Now there's even an optional rule about using the matrix in Unwired, where you use your Attribute + Skill for matrix tests like any other test with the Program being a Limit to the hits you can get (funny, that's kinda the same as SR5 now). Great idea for keeping away that Logic 2 ork hacker that can slice through military grade firewalls just because they have bleeding edge software on a SOTA commlink.

In the game that I'm running (and using that optional rule), the team technomancer still hasn't quite realized that she'll be able to hack just a bit faster (and more reliably) if she actually threads her Exploit up to 5. Currently at Exploit 3, I've seen several times where hits had to be thrown away because of that limit. Has made hacking DV 3 commlinks a challenge as she has set off an alert about half the time when hacking on the fly (one pass faster usually would avoid this).

You should wait for the Matrix Core Rulebook, before declaring Technomancher death.
Even in SR4A Technomancer only got strong with the Unwired rules and options.

If you wanna declare a matrix class death, try the KIs. With the device damage rules, I cannot image how you can play a KI, or what gimmicks you can give a KI* to make her playable.

*Ok maybe some kind of device damage redirection rule.

edit: KI = AI / Artificial Intelligence, Abominable Intelligence or Silica Animus

Why? I prefer SR4A, as it makes tons more sense than SR5 does. *shrug*
That said - I LIKE the way they implemented Programs in SR5, and the potential of reduced Dice Rolling. Sadly, Most everything else about the SR5 Matrix sucks, in my opinion. Not a big Fan.

Indeed... we use the Stat + Skill, Limited by Programs rules, and it worked out super well. I do prefer the Stat + Skill, Program acts as Reach method we tried slightly better, though. The optional rule pulls the Technomancer's power back a bit (No threading an Exploit or Stealth to 14+ for the dice alone), but he is still pretty powerful.

What the Heck is a KI?

Ki adepts maybe? aka adept decker?

5th Ed matrix is like the rest of the rules: Fixes half the open issues, then introduces an equal number of new ones, and before using it you have to go through priority gen.

Sry my gibberish.
-KI +AI
Artificial Intelligence, Abominable Intelligence or Silica Animus

Ahhh... Got it... Killer AI.

More likely künstliche Intelligenz

the matrix core rulebook would have to add a bunch of stupid broken stuff for technomancers to make them appropriate to their cost, and then we'd have a bunch of stupid broken stuff. but most importantly, i shouldn't have to buy an extra rulebook to avoid being punished for playing a core archetype. if technomancer isn't going to be a good option until the matrix book, they should bloody well not make it an option until the matrix book.

having said that, based on how their current team seems to really really like deckers and doesn't seem to care at all about technomancers (there's no way they could have done a thorough playtest of technomancers in their current state and thought there was nothing wrong with the fading values for their complex forms, for example, and considering their costs are pretty much just as bad in SR5 chargen as they were in SR4 chargen, it's not like they would have had to do much to realize that it takes a lot to build an effective technomancer, or that getting augmented isn't exactly an option for them)...

well, let's just say i'm not expecting a lot of technomancer love in the matrix book. and in any event, they don't need new broken stuff. they need to have their core rules fixed, so that they don't need to be given ridiculous broken stuff to be as useful as a decker.

as to AIs, ummmm...

you do realize that technomancers use those same device damage rules, and that you can just do matrix damage to their brain, right? if KIs can't handle those rules, then quite frankly technomancers are just as screwed.

(also, i think you're underestimating the effectiveness of solid dice pools combined with matrix full defence... anyone trying to damage the AI is more likely to damage themselves).

Probably, but my German is severely lacking.

translates to machine intelligence or artificial intelligence.

Playtest? Catalyst? Really?

Here we are probably going to have to invoke the infamous TJ fallacy, where the playtesters only played select situations/settings where the problems never arose and therefore were not considered a problem at the time.

One could imagine it going something like this.


To be fair, it can be hard to run the whole thing through the wringer, plus with the last bits of patching here and there, groups may have been running with alternate rules and etc that was changed in the final draft.

Get two munchkins, lock them in a shed, and when you are going to release a new book give it to them for an hour and if they don't yell about how crap stuff is or build some pun-pun equivalent you are fine.

fix'd. Munchkins yell when things are not sufficiently overpowered, not when they're underpowered.

But the munchkin will say it is crap.

Wouldn't they likely argue that balanced stuff is underpowered crap though?

Sounds good on paper, but sometimes (A lot of the time when it really matters) you cant afford to skip actions and defend, especially if you are watching the IC stack up on you and the overwatch tick up. A solid defense pool without full defense is still a good thing though, dont get me wrong, but then its more about avoiding damage than making them hurt themselves.

I volunteer.


I can show restraint when exercising my great power. My nosferatu mystic adept blood mage is surprisingly group-friendly, for instance. He was actually a drone support rigger because he did not want to expose himself.

I have one dumb question, and one moderately unintelligent observation.

Question: where do you find all these rules? I have SR4 and SR5 rulebooks, as well as Unwired, and can't find anything but a few generic programs that really aren't very helpful. I've actually started to just write my own stuff from scratch.

Observation: If the rules are too potent, nerf them. If they're too soft, steel them. It's pretty easy. If, for instance, the fading cost of a skill is too high, lower it appropriately. If the damage is too low, raise it, or increase the chance to hit.

we kinda paid money for the system. while it is unreasonable to expect it to be perfect for everyone all the time, it should at least be a close approximation of reasonable for most people most of the time.

and even the people who like technomancers seem to like them *after* having made changes.

i mean, the first time i read the rules for technomancers, i was like "huh, that seems really weak". it was noticeable without even playing an actual game, and while sometimes it looks bad but is actually pretty good in practice, like i said, we're seeing even the people that are defending technomancers as being viable generally have modified the rules.

now, i don't imagine that i am some sort of genius when it comes to game balance. it's not like i can spot everything that's going to be a problem in every system ever written, and i make mistakes far more often than i would like to admit when it comes to rules. and i find it hard to believe that my skillset is so unique that CGL couldn't have playtesters with the same ability to look at a system, notice potential problems, and point them out (to be tested to determine if they are, in fact, problems).

which means either CGL didn't care enough to have/use those people, or didn't care enough to listen to them. knowing that the freelancers basically had a ton of things that they submitted as needing correction (they've told us as much), that implies that it is the latter.

there's a lot of stuff that's pretty good about SR5. and there's also some stuff where, looking at it, i'm forced to assume that the people making decisions about the final product just didn't care. in which case, why are they the ones making decisions?

To What RULES are you referring?

oh, just recalled another reason why it isn't acceptable to build a system that needs fixing to be complete:

missions. the company itself is running a living campaign where you are required to play by the rules mostly as written. there are a few exceptions (see the missions forums for details), but they're all pretty minor.

so do tell, what exactly is the compensation for someone who makes a technomancer in a missions campaign? do they just tell their GM "oh, in my group's games, complex forms don't have ludicrously high fading damage" or "in my group's games, technomancers actually don't cost as much to build as a magician so that i could build a character that doesn't have to invest massive amounts of effort into being almost as good as the hacker"?

somehow, i don't think that's happening.

The technomancer forms and the various programs options being mentioned here.

I probably have them and am just blind or something, considering the metric dreckton of books and info I have recently inherited, but I just can't seem to find them in the pile.

Jaid: you make MANY good points. Most notable, to me, is the transposibility of characters into other campaigns, as this is not a practice I personally have, but I do understand both the importance and the commonality of it.

Yes but it will be in the form of "why would anyone buy X when there is Y available" and Y is what you look at. An example "why would anyone buy an AM-884 when you can get a Rainforest Carbine".

In a missions game a poorly built techniomancer will get through the adventure fine blind folded. You have to build a character to fail not to roll through a missions adventure.

well, that explains the awful payouts.

on a side note, if that's true, the technomancer may very well be the only character who is likely to *not* make it through a mission, if they actually attempt to use their powers. just because the opposition sucks, doesn't mean the technomancer can't manage to KO themselves.