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Xystophoroi
Maybe I'm blind but I can't seem to find any place where it neatly explains how to use a Drone if you're not a Rigger.

There's a little bit on Drones running themselves (Pilot Program as Device rating) and the drones in the equiment section seem to all be listed with a 'piloted with the walker skill' or 'pilot with the aircraft skill' etc.

But it all seems very jumbled throughout the book and I can't tell if I've read all the rules about using drones. So in the following situations how would a non-rigger use a Drone? What equipment is needed? What skills? What modifiers should I be concerned about? Noise? Wireless enabled?

Street Sam with a cyberdog drone to aid them in combat

Face with an MCT FlySpy (can you stick sensors on the Drone? How do you roll for things like electrnic warfare for jamming?) to get in and spy on people

Mage with a roto-drone as a gun mount, it flies in at high altitude and gives suppressive fire suport for the team with an FA weapon

Could you get a microdrone to sneak in and attach a sensor RFID tag inside a complex? If so, how?

I read the book and it feels like there are hints and scraps for how to do this but no clear: This is a drone. This is how a drone works by itself. This is how a drone works when controlled. This is how a rigger controls a drone. And it doesn't help that the equipment section seems to have some of the rules for drone control in there! Or maybe I'm just dumb.
Happy Trees
It doesn't mention it because use of a drone requires a control rig, which makes the character a rigger. That said, if you wanted your sam to have a drone, he would just need a rig, and the appropriate software for the drone. For simplicity, basic software should be included with the drone as appropriate. You could add complexity by allowing for software upgrades. The drone will need a pilot program. If it is an attack drone, it will also need a targeting program. A medical drone will require a medical autosoft. You get the idea, I'm sure. But yes, the very first thing needed will be a control rig, otherwise the drone won't be able to receive commands from the character.
Smash
QUOTE (Happy Trees @ Mar 21 2014, 10:39 PM) *
It doesn't mention it because use of a drone requires a control rig, which makes the character a rigger. That said, if you wanted your sam to have a drone, he would just need a rig, and the appropriate software for the drone. For simplicity, basic software should be included with the drone as appropriate. You could add complexity by allowing for software upgrades. The drone will need a pilot program. If it is an attack drone, it will also need a targeting program. A medical drone will require a medical autosoft. You get the idea, I'm sure. But yes, the very first thing needed will be a control rig, otherwise the drone won't be able to receive commands from the character.


You don't need a control rig. The control rig allows you to jump in. Anyone can control drones with a Deck or a commlink. Riggers generally just have Control consoles (that allow the control of multiple vehicles at once) and a control rig that allow them to jump in and get bonuses to vehicle tests.

Anyone can get a drone to follow them around and obey orders, but to get it 1/2 way decent will set you back a lot of cash on agents and software.

from p238:

QUOTE
You perform an action through a device you control
(or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or
deck
like a remote control or video-game controller. The
dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the
rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use
if you were performing the action normally. For example,
firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a
Gunnery + Agility test, and using a remote underwater
welder calls for a Nautical Mechanic + Logic test. All actions
you take while controlling a device use either the
normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating,
whichever is lower.


Note that all commlinks have data processing.
Jack VII
QUOTE
It doesn't mention it because use of a drone requires a control rig, which makes the character a rigger. That said, if you wanted your sam to have a drone, he would just need a rig, and the appropriate software for the drone. For simplicity, basic software should be included with the drone as appropriate. You could add complexity by allowing for software upgrades. The drone will need a pilot program. If it is an attack drone, it will also need a targeting program. A medical drone will require a medical autosoft. You get the idea, I'm sure. But yes, the very first thing needed will be a control rig, otherwise the drone won't be able to receive commands from the character.


Assuming the question is about 5E, the above is incorrect.

Any character can use a drone. If you don't have a control rig, this is accomplished in two ways:

1) Send the drone a command using the Send Message matrix action. The drone will receive the command and its Pilot program will interpret it. Note that any complex combat is probably not the best place to have a drone interpreting commands on its own.

2) Use the Control Device matrix action to remote control the drone. The basics of this are explained under that action in the book, but essentially you use your own skills and abilities to RC the drone: driving it with Pilot (X) + Reaction, sneaking around with Sneak + Agility, fire weapons with Gunnery + Disagreement, etc.

ETA: slipped by Smash
Smash
QUOTE (Xystophoroi @ Mar 21 2014, 09:38 PM) *
Street Sam with a cyberdog drone to aid them in combat


Appropriate skills:
Pilot Ground Craft
Gunnery

Gear:
A commlink
Autosofts and agents if you want to use your own actions and don't want a pilot rating 2 doing all the shooting.

QUOTE (Xystophoroi @ Mar 21 2014, 09:38 PM) *
Face with an MCT FlySpy (can you stick sensors on the Drone? How do you roll for things like electrnic warfare for jamming?) to get in and spy on people


Appropriate skills:
Pilot AirCraft
Electronic warfare might help you reduce noise but I don't think you can jam through your drone (I could be wrong though)

Gear:
A commlink
Autosofts for perception and agents
Sensors are wierd. It seems you get to pick 8 out of 12 or something dumb. I just tend to say they have them all.

QUOTE (Xystophoroi @ Mar 21 2014, 09:38 PM) *
Could you get a microdrone to sneak in and attach a sensor RFID tag inside a complex? If so, how?


You could. Remote control seemingly lets you do actions through the drone as if you were doing them yourself. So I assume you could remote the drone as stealthily as yourself. However, the drone will suffer from noise outside of 100m and through walls, etc.

QUOTE (Xystophoroi @ Mar 21 2014, 09:38 PM) *
I read the book and it feels like there are hints and scraps for how to do this but no clear: This is a drone. This is how a drone works by itself. This is how a drone works when controlled. This is how a rigger controls a drone. And it doesn't help that the equipment section seems to have some of the rules for drone control in there! Or maybe I'm just dumb.


Yeah, that's Shadowrun for you smile.gif
Happy Trees
This thread makes me wish there was a like button. I like being corrected, especially when the corrections make so much basic sense.
BlackJaw
The previous posters got it right: anyone can remote control a vehicle or drone or issue orders to it's autopilot with just a commlink and no implants at all. Rigging is something beyond that which requires a computer installed in your brain, but it isn't a requirement to use drones.

Some clarifications:

Drones vs Vehicles
First of all, the game book has a very small distinction between a vehicle and a drone. In many cases the terms are interchangeable. In Shadowrun, cars can drive themselves, making them effectively large drones you can ride in and that tend to come with built in manual controls. The major distinctions are that drones come with a rigger adaptation while vehicles do not, and drones aren't built to carry passengers.

Controlling a Drone or Vehilce
There are several setups for controlling drones:
You can let a vehicle or drone control itself. You issue it orders, typically through a matrix communication, and it's Pilot rating + appropriate autosoft is used to take the action on it's own initiative. Drones & Vehciles can run a number of autosofts equal to half their Pilot rating rounded up, which typically means 2. Alternatively, if they are slaved to a Rigger Control Console, they can use the autosofts active on the console, but only if they aren't running any autosofts of their own. Pro Tip: drones can run any Cyberprogram, not just autosofts. Putting an Armor and Signal Scrubber on your drones, and then using your RCC for autosofts, makes your drones more durable. If you are using a weak firewalled RCC, consider Encryption instead of Armor.
There is no spicific skill used for issuing orders to a drone autopilot, but because the orders are given through a matrix message, you probably don't want to be incompetent in Computers to do it.

You can manually control a vehicle, which is commonly called driving, or piloting.
This is done via the appropriate Pilot X skill.

You can remote control a vehicle/drone using your commlink, deck, or Rigger Control Console as a remote control device.
This is also done via the Pilot X skills.

You can remote control a vehicle/drone via AR, using augmented reality controls and your Commlink, Deck, or Rigger Control Console. AR increases you limit by 1.
Again, you still use the Pilot X skills.

You can remote control a vehicle/drone via VR, which might be like being in a virtual driver's seat even for drones which don't have a driver's seat in the real world. This is done using your Commlink, Deck, or Rigger Control Console and requires a DNI device, such as a data-jack, trodenet, implanted commlink or deck, or control rig. VR increases your limit by 2, and you use Matrix Initiative instead of physical initiative. Additionally control device is a matrix action and gains a dice-pool bonus in Hot Sim VR.
You still use the Pilot X skills.

If you have a Control Rig installed into your brain you can do more than control a drone or rigger adapted vehicle, you can "jump into it" and become the vehicle/drone, also called rigging. Your senses are replaced by those of the drone or rigger adapted vehicle, so you feel the road under your wheels and the wind on your chassis. Rigging is always done in VR, hot or cold, and gains all the VR bonuses, but you also gain the benefits of your vehicle control rig, such as reducing the threshold of your vehicle test by their rating. The drawback here is that you also feel it when the vehicle takes damage, and suffer biofeedback equal to half the damage your vehicle took.
Even when rigging, you still use the Pilot X skills to control the vehicle or drone.

AR control, VR control, and Rigging all require both you and your drone/vehicle to be online, or for you to have a direct hardline connection running between you and your drone. Controlling a device over the matrix is a matrix action, which has a lot of baggage associated with it. If you are wirelessly controlling the vehicle in any of these methods, you need to worry about noise penalties, public or cross grid penalties, and even running silent penalties. Direct connections avoid all of those penalties, and is why Vehicle Control Rigs come with a data-jack like plug and cable: so you can jack directly into your car/jet/boat/etc.

Page 265 lays out the control priorities for vehicles, drones, and devices. Riggers have control priority, followed by remote control, then manual control, and lastly autopilot. That means if you try to issue orders to the pilot program of a drone being actively remote controlled, the remote controller retains control and your orders are ignored. Similarly, the person remote controlling the drone will loose control of the drone if someone jumps into/rigs into the drone. It also means that when you relinquish control of a vehicle or drone, the auto-pilot takes over immediately, so if you want to take your hands off the wheel and shoot out the driver's side window of your car, the car can keep driving on it's own... as long as you tell it to do so via matrix message.

Non-Riggers with a Drone?
If you're a non-rigger but want to make use of a single drone? You probably only need to buy that drone and maybe a few autosofts to run on the drone, typically up to 2 at a time. You can control it just fine from your existing commlink, or let it do it's own thing on autopilot. Do note that combat drones need an autosoft to use a weapon on autopilot. A dobberman with an Ares Alpha assault rifle mounted on it can't shoot that gun at all without at least a rating 1 targeting autosoft specific to the Ares Alpha Assault Rifle. A weapon mounted on a drone without a targeting autosoft can still be fired through remote control/rigging of course. Autosoft prices were left out of the book in first printing, but are in the Errata. (Rating x $500, Availability is Rating X 2). New Pilot Program prices have yet to be released.

Drone/Vehicles Sensors
All vehicles and drones come with a built in Sensor Suite at their Sensor rating. You can remove the sensor suit and put in a better one by buying a sensor suite of the new rating, but different sized vehicles and drones have different caps on what rating a sensor suite they can take. Sensor Suites contain up to 8 sensors but the book does not define which ones are "standard." I suspect they typically include forward and rear motion sensors and cameras, and an atmospheric sensor, which leaves only 3 of the 8 slots still open for reasonable customization. If you want any special enhancements, like flare compensation, thermographic vision, smartlink, etc, you'll have to pay for those to be added to the sensor in the suite. Sensor Suite rules start on page 445.
There are some odd uses for Sensors beyond simply act as the senses of the drone/vehicles. First of all, a character using a sensor suite to make a sensor test can use their electronic warfare skill instead of perception. Many rigger characters have a solid electronic warfare skill for this reason. Secondly, if you are using sensor assisted targeting, you can use the sensor instead of a mounted weapon's accuracy. Lastly, you can try to get a sensor lock on a target before shooting them with a mounted weapon. Sensor related targeting is generally intended for use on vehicles and takes penalties when use on small targets like people and people sized or smaller drones. See page 184 for more details.

Remote Control and Data Processing as Limit
For added complication, when you are remote controlling a drone, the Data Processing rating of the device you are using acts as a limit on all your actions taken through the drone, this is in addition to the other limits that apply, such as handling, accuracy, etc. If you are remote controlling the device through Rating 6 commlink, you probably don't need to worry about this, but a rating 1 Metalink makes for a bad remote control. If you get into Passive sensor targeting via rigging, this becomes very muddy as there are multiple limits and limit modifiers that apply.

The Gunnery Skill
There is a lot of confusion surrounding the Gunnery skill because it's described differently in different parts of the book. It's one of the many editing problems. If you take the latest errata into account, it seems to work this way:
Firing a mounted weapon manually is Gunnery + Agility.
Firing a mounted weapon via remote is Gunnery + Logic. Pro Tip: Riggers should take the "Remote control" specialty on Gunnery.
This means your street samurai with the low logic might actually be better off letting his doberman drone fire the ares alpha mounted no it with a rating 6 autosoft + pilot 3 than to remote control it. Alternatively, he could pay the extra $500 to have a manual control weapon mount installed in the drone, which would let him walk up to the drone and use the gun via Gunnery + Agility... making it essentially a walking gun turret that can fire itself and holds 250 rounds of ammo.
Sengir
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 21 2014, 01:21 PM) *
from p238:
QUOTE

You perform an action through a device you control
(or at least control sufficiently), using your commlink or
deck like a remote control or video-game controller. The
dice pool of any test you make using this action uses the
rating of the appropriate skill and attribute you would use
if you were performing the action normally. For example,
firing a drone-mounted weapon at a target requires a
Gunnery + Agility test, and using a remote underwater
welder calls for a Nautical Mechanic + Logic test. All actions
you take while controlling a device use either the
normal limit for that action or your Data Processing rating,
whichever is lower.



Note that all commlinks have data processing.

Unfortunately, Data Processing might not be enough, thanks to the rule immediately following the part you quoted:
If there is no test associated with the action you want the device to perform (such as unlocking a maglock or ejecting a clip from a pistol), you must succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall test to perform the action.

Control Device to fire at somebody is fine, since that requires a test. Changing the firing mode on your drone on the other hand...
Jack VII
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 21 2014, 10:42 AM) *
Control Device to fire at somebody is fine, since that requires a test. Changing the firing mode on your drone on the other hand...

Send Message: Change fire mode to FA.

It's slower, but still works.
Jaid
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 21 2014, 11:52 AM) *
Send Message: Change fire mode to FA.

It's slower, but still works.


you would also have to stop remote controlling, and then start again. otherwise your remote controlling takes priority.

this is usually a pretty easy thing to fix in your home games (i would *hope* your GM isn't strict enough at following the rules that he forces you to hack the drone you're controlling into doing something that shouldn't even be a test in the first place), but really sucks for people playing missions unless their missions GM decides to ignore (or forgets, and nobody brings up) that particular rule.
BlackJaw
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 21 2014, 10:42 AM) *
Unfortunately, Data Processing might not be enough, thanks to the rule immediately following the part you quoted:
If there is no test associated with the action you want the device to perform (such as unlocking a maglock or ejecting a clip from a pistol), you must succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall test to perform the action.

Control Device to fire at somebody is fine, since that requires a test. Changing the firing mode on your drone on the other hand...

This is part of the larger problem with how the matrix section is written from the perspective of a hacker trying to do things he shouldn't with not enough thought put into how things would be used normally by their owners. By RAW, there is no way to remove protection from a file without cracking it with a cyberdeck, and a corporate drone has to make an opposed roll vs a host system in order to spell-check an expense report at work. The rules are best used as a guideline or framework and not taken too literally all the time. SO: a hacker trying to mess with someone's gun that they have sleazed or attacked a mark onto needs to make a roll to force the gun to accept the note entirely legal command. A person controlling their own drone shouldn't need to make an illegal matrix action to change their firing mode.
Mantis
QUOTE (Jack VII @ Mar 21 2014, 04:24 AM) *
... fire weapons with Gunnery + Disagreement, etc.


Thanks for the coffee out the nose. biggrin.gif
Smash
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 22 2014, 02:42 AM) *
Note that all commlinks have data processing.

Unfortunately, Data Processing might not be enough, thanks to the rule immediately following the part you quoted:
If there is no test associated with the action you want the device to perform (such as unlocking a maglock or ejecting a clip from a pistol), you must succeed in an Electronic Warfare + Intuition [Sleaze] v. Intuition + Firewall test to perform the action.

Control Device to fire at somebody is fine, since that requires a test. Changing the firing mode on your drone on the other hand...


I actually assume that this is written specifically for deckers hacking devices that they don't own, which is why the roll is opposed. When you think about it, if that wasn't the case then it would be harder to remote control devices with higher ratings which seems the inverse of what should be the case.

If you own it why would there be an opposed roll?
Sengir
QUOTE (Smash @ Mar 21 2014, 09:09 PM) *
If you own it why would there be an opposed roll?

Because
Rubic
Sengir, you vile person. Linking to THAT site! I demand my 2 hours back!!
MADness
Two hours? I lost six, and possibly a child. Fair warning next time.
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