Besides the general totam penalties and bonuses, what else are the main advantages of mages vs shamans?
ive read the magic section of SR3 but i cant seem to put a finger on anything.

Kagetenshi once told me somthing along the lines of not being able to hold spirits past certain times of the day depending on how long you have had them summoned or somthing. I'm not sure.

Any enlightenment would be good.

It mostly comes down to spirits and tools. Both mages and shamans can get die bonuses through either a totem or by focusing on an elemental type, so things are dead on there.

Shamans get off easy by only needing a dirt-cheap Shamanic Lodge from time to time. Hermetic Magicians need a specialized hermetic library that costs an arm and a leg anytime they want to summon a spirit, design a spell, enchant, or anything else along those lines. Mages also have to either pay out the nose or waste a lot of time creating ritual summoning materials everytime they want to conjure an elemental, which they can only do in the comfort of their home.

Nature spirits tend to have a lot of cool powers but have to be summoned in the field, meaning shamans have to be concened with drain whenever they summon a spirit. Mages, who do most of their summoning in a safe environment, can put just about everything they have into the summoning ritual itself, allowing them to gain more services and more powerful elemental spirits when doing so.

Elementals can also assist with sorcery, act as a sustaining focus, and are pretty good in combat situations. As previously mentioned, however, they lack most of the cool powers a nature spirit gets.

Finally, nature spirits disappear after a maximum of 12 hours (24 if an urban or rural shaman) regardless of how many services you have. They are also limited to moving and using their powers within their narrowly-defined domains. Elementals have no time OR domain restraints and a mage can continue to add service on top of service to an existing elemental to keep it around for a good, long time. As long as the mage doesn't keep the elemental on call 24/7 (each day costing one service if used in this fashion), the elemental stays bound to him forever or until the mage uses up all his services.

It's about 50-50. Most people around here prefer shamans and their nature spirits. I personally prefer hermies and their elementals because I like their style better.

ACL summed it up pretty well. There are just a coupple of things that I might add:

Many people like the role-playing aspects of Shamans and their totems. I suppose the same could be said about mages though.

Shamans also have the shamanic mask, which makes it easier to tell they are a magician. Can we say "Geek the Mage" reflex anyone?

It's also the time limitation with spirits, as ACL has pointed out. Just after dawn or midnight is a weak time for a Shaman, because his spirits are gone and he has to summon them back (that's advice on 1 way to go up against a sec-shaman from Corp. Sec. Handbook). Mages, OTOH, tend to have to be masters of the boy scout motto, which means that they can have elementals around for a while. The elementals are also a tad more versitile in terms of service; an elemental told to guard a spot or area will do that for 24 hours = 1 service. A nature spirit will guard it until midnight or morn.

In the advance stages, i.e. initiation, a shaman does have more, in that they only have to go to one metaplane to learn spells, as opposed to mages who have to travel to the metaplane governing the spell or a random one for healing spells. That's a minor difference but can be important in game-play.

Basically the totem modifiers are the big thing; a mage doesn't have to aline himself with an element; shamans can't get out of doing that, barring Owl, Coyote, Moon Madien, and maybe 1 or 2 more. When's the last time you saw a mage having to make a Willpower test to change his mind or stop himself from flying into a blind rage?

It's six of one and half a dozen of the other, really.

Don

Actually its dusk or dawn, not midnight or morning. But that's just a little mistake.

But Shamans are certifiably insane

thanks everyone for the help

When it comes down to it, Hermetic Magicians tend to be better at Sorcery (especially since their elementals can augment their abilities) while Shamans are stronger, or at least more versatile, in the Conjuring department. But overall, they're pretty balanced.

Path Magicians get the best of both worlds, Wujen are pretty cool all around, and Hougans are cool if you really get into their flavor and don't mind losing your mind whenever you channel a spirit, but they're nothing special. Psychics, on the other hand, suck completely.

Hermetics have the advantage of being able to summon multiple spirits to help. A shaman can only have one Nature spirit under his direct control at any given time. Where this really gets ugly is the Astral Attack Pack strategy-- six watchers, six mid-force elementals, one ally, and one projecting mage = astral gang rape.

Most shamans I know like to pick Invoking as a metamagic skill on intiation. Often before masking or shielding or other popular ones. Great form nature spirits lose a lot of the restrictions of normal natrue spirits.

My thoughts.....

Shamans get totem modifiers (characters tend to work with the modifiers)
Shamans can summon spirits cheap.
Nature spirits disappear at sunset or sundown.
Nature spirits suffer domain problems unless they're great form. (It gets compicated)
Nature spirits have more subtle powers.
Great form Nature spirits lose their domain restrictions.
Great form nature spirits have either divination or storm ( which can be quite powerful)

Mages don't often get any bonuses or penalities.
Summoning Elementals is a long expensive process.
Elementals remain until all services are used up.
The Summoning process can be repeated on the same elemental to get more services.
One remote service however voids all remaining services.
Elementals have more direct powers.
Great form gives elementals the ability to attack multiple targets at once.

and because the current group I'm GMing has one......

Wujen don't get any bonuses or penalities.
Wujen can summon spirits of the elements and spirits of man.
Wujen spirits can be summoned cheap.
Wujen spirits disappear at sunset or sundown.
Wujen spirits suffer domain problems unless they're great form. (It gets compicated)
Spirits of man have more subtle powers. ( and divination in great form )
Elemental Spirits have the same powers as elementals plus some.
Great form elemental spirits have Storm and Cleansing.


Someone else can do Houngans if they want. I've never had a player be one. The closest I've come is I created an Obeyifa character once. I've also never had a player take a magician using Tir na nOg path magic.

I think we are overlooking the main point here mage=cool, shaman=wack. As evidence I note:

Gandalf? Mage

Merlin? Mage

Raistlin? Mage

Name a famous shaman...the only one I can think of is that annoying dude from conan the barbarian who always looks constipated.

Am I right, or am I right?

Hmm, let's see.

Druids are pretty cool. But, unfortunately, the ones that are tend to lean towards the hermetic path than the shamanic one so it's not much help.

Lo Pan (from Big Trouble in Little China) as well as his storm apprentices relied on totem-figures for their powers, so they qualify as adepts of the Shamanic Magician's Way (even if more wujenish).

Aleister Crowley was an idolistic pantheist.

Taliesin was a druidic bard, but again, most stories paint him more as the hermetic flavor than the shamanic one.

Jesus Christ could technically be called an idolistic shaman.

Faust, too, was closest to an idolistic shaman that was an aspected conjurer (or at least a European-flavored Hougan).

Baba Yaga was a witch with shamanistic flavor, though I can easily see her as being more hermetic, too, based on several of her stories.

But yeah, overall, hermetics are cooler and far more numerous.

Heres a little something for shamans summining spirits. If the area you are going to hit is in the city, summon the biggest spirit you can a couple hours before your run. This should allow time to heal the stun and you can get a high level city spirit to get you to the location. I know you can't bring it into any building, but it can either help you get there, or as an extended sevice, mess up any trouble coming from the outside. And unlike a mage, its free.

Shaman advantages:

>Totem bonuses give bonus dice to Sorcery and/or Conjuring.

>Nature Spirits are more versatile in what kinds of services they can provide.

>You can summon them on the fly, with no materials required.

>Lodges are far cheaper than hermetic circles/libraries/elemental summoning materials


Shaman disadvantages:

>Totem penalties, both in dice and in behavioral restrictions, often enforced by Willpower checks.

>Have to follow the ideals of the Totem or lose your magical ability.

>Summoning spirits on the fly means resisting Drain on the fly. They are limited by both time and domain - restrictions that elementals don't have.

>Spirits are bound to a domain (until you become an initiate and can summon Great Form spirits). This can be a problem when you are moving around.

>Spellcasting is more visible due to the Shamanic Mask.



Hermetic advantages:

>You can be an elemental mage if you want dice bonuses for Sorcery and Conjuring - this used to be a perk reserved for shamans.

>Elementals are very good in combat, and can be used to aid things like magical study or spellcasting.

>You can summon elementals well ahead of time so you are nice and rested for the run. Also, no domain to worry about.

>You can command more than one elemental at a time. 4-6 elementals materializing suddenly can wreak havok even among awakened opposition, much less mundanes.

>Hermetic spellcasting is less obvious.

>No rules or behavioral restrictions.


Hermetic disadvantages:

>If you are an elemental mage, you have dice penalties as well as bonuses.

>Hermetic circles, libraries, and elemental summoning materials are expensive - at char-gen, you need a higher Priority allocated to resources to be truly effective.

>If you can't get back to your place/hermetic circle/library/summoning materials, you can't summon anything on the fly other than watcher spirits. A hermetic mage on the run is cut off from a significan portion of his magical ability.

Not to mention the amount of money that the hermetic stuff takes up, your library and your conjuring materials, and so on.

Elementals are sort of so-so on a run because they quickly dip into your profits, but calling all 6 or 8 of them to save you life is a great ace to have.

For spirits, shamans are much better at 'everyday' stuff, since they can 'just summon another spirit'. Hermetics are much better at pulling your hoop out of the fire, or putting someone else in.

Just remember that as soon as you enter that building you leave the domain you lose the ability to give the nature spirit any more orders.

A lot of it comes down to how much planning you have to do in advance. A shaman can call up a spirit on a whim to meet a threat, while a Mage gets his loadout days, even months in advance.

~J

"Aleister Crowley was an idolistic pantheist."

Eh...remember, in SR, there can be "shamanic-flavored" mages, and vice versa. A mage can easily believe in a Shamanic totem, he just doesn't follow it. He can even pay homage to it, he just doesn't /follow it/. I'd cite Crowley's time with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn as a reason that he's an idolistic mage.

"There was a little toolshed where he made us suffer, Sad Satan!"

Generally, in my experience (admittedly, I've played a lot more hermetics than shamans, though I've had my share of both) hermetics and shamans are good in different types of environments or with different playing styles. Hermetics are better for the player (and character) that can plan ahead, take precautions, and consider moves before making them. Shamans are more skilled at being spontaneous. That's a broad generalization, and there are exceptions, of course, but they're both suited to those roles for all the reasons discussed above.

One nitpick, Glyph-- Hermetic circles are cheaper than lodges, and are more portable. You can set one up anywhere you have space, and they take less time to "charge". The real disadvantages are the space required, the fact that they only work as an astral barrier while they're being used, and the fact that you need 4 of 'em to summon all elementals.

9 our of 10 of my magicians are Shamans. Raccoon has been the most frequent over the last 12 years, but more recently Leopard when I want to "munchkin" (this word works well as a Verb, don't you agree). Once each of Snake, Gator, and Shark over the years. As a rule (occasionally broken) I never take a Shaman that can go beserk.

The last three Leopards were (1) the guy who didn't know he was a magician and had bad dreams of "floating" above his body while asleep, unable to get back; (2) the combat gunman with Stealth and Imp. Invisibility spells; and (3) the Indian Woman Leopard Shaman Fox Shapeshifter.

I try to go a different totem each time. I've done an Eagle/Thunderbird crossover (Could cast Electricity Manipulation spells, and no penalty for not being under open sky, but adding the Eagle's Doubble penalty from cyber), Spider shamanist (yay for munchyness!), Monkey, Leopard, and now Wolf.

I don't think I've played a pure hermetic yet, but I have a hermetic enchanter sitting around somewhere waiting to be played.

Here's my take on each type of Magician:

Psionicist:
Disadvantages:
Can't use Foci.
Can't ritual with non psi
Can't learn from non psi.
Can't freaking initiate with a magical group that isn't all psionicists.
Can't use elemental manips or most healing spells.
Can't use most of the Geasa.
They can only summon one spirit at a time.
The one spirit they can summon is a POS with only 3 powers and really weak fighting skills.
Their one spirit only lasts 24 hours.
No Great Form Thought Form spirits.

Advantages:
Technically Thought Forms are the only spirit that is both free and always lasts 24 hours, if you really care.

Mage:
Disadvantages:
Have to pay mucho nuyen for everything and need to have libraries available to use any skill, while other magicians can use those Nuyen to buy extra foci or gear.

Elementals take forever to conjur so you'd better know in advance what you'll need.

Advantages:
A bit easier to play with since they have no +/- die to spell catagories and no behavioral mods.
Elementals can do stuff that no other spirit can ever hope to.
Elementals tend to have quite impressive fighting skills.
Can have a "Stable" of many powerful elementals on hand (Only really useful to GMs as shadowrunners rarely have the nuyen to have 6 force 6 elementals on standbye.)

Shaman:
Disadvantages:
Has to be in a specific domain to conjur a spirit.
Spirits vanish at sunrise and sunset.
Advantages:
Spirits can be summoned quickly, for free.
Nature spirits have a truckload of nifty powers.

Wujen
Disadvantages:
Has to buy libraries just like Mages.

Advantages:
Spirits can be conjured if domain is merely LOS rather than physically present.
Don't have to buy a library to conjur.

Wheel Mage:
Disadvantages
Generally not as many bonus die as a Totem.
Odd date/location based bonuses can irritate the GM, which can hurt sometimes.
Path of Kings is NPC only, but will eat most PCs for breakfast.

Advantages:
Can both call on a "Stable" of elementals like a mage and conjur up a quick spirit in a pinch.
Odd date/location based bonuses can help sometimes.

Houngan:
Disadvantages:
Everybody hates Zombies, making you a target if you use them.
If your Zombie goes free it's automatically an evil magic threat.
Spirits only last 12 hours.

Advantages:
Not only can summon spirits, but gets to create armies of Zombies too.
Zombies can be incredibly powerful combat monsters.
Nifty self-possession power can really save your tail.
All spirit stats have the same level, makes bookkeeping easy.
Spirits have no domain restrictions, making them much more versatile than any other no-cost spirit.


These are in my idea of order from weakest to strongest. Houngan get two extra powers (Zombies and spirit-possession) for free compared to the others, while psionicists lose a lot of power for nothing.

2 quick notes

A Hougan can only have summoned 1 loa of their patron loa and 1 loa of another loa at any one time.

loas cannot manifest physically and can only interact with the world through possession. Unless its great form a loa can only possess its summoner or a servituer.

Where do they talk about this Talismongering skill? I gotta say I'm very interested.

Magic in the Shadows. Conjuring Materials are just Ritual Materials and follow the rules thereof in the Enchanting section.

Agreed. Zombies simply aren't that tactically useful. The can't disappear back into astral space like any other spirit. The best use of them would be as a distraction or cannon fodder. ( which means they aren't coming back ) I wonder if a captured zombie can be tracked back to you using ritual magic....

But recently zombies have taken a much worse hit. The shedim have made what was a tabboo hobby into a downright dangerous practice. Not only are people keeping better track of their corpses and the disposal thereof, but police and governments are cracking down hard on shedim and anything that looks like a shedim and those that make them. And just to add the final insult to injury there is good chance you'll run into a shedim while you're corpse hunting.

Zombies are fun as part of a pirate crew captained by a hougan. But beyond that, they're pretty useless.

Zombies are also good as artillery. Push them out the back of some sort of aircraft.

"Beware of low-flying nightmares"

~J

Where are the stats (and any special rules) for zombies? Do they get TN modifiers for wounds? For stun damage? Pestilence power (the dead are full of nasty contagious stuff what happens if they bite you?)

I don't know, it's pretty easy, if you find a tanked Samurai to kill, to create a Zombie with physical attributes in the 20s. Remember they get half the originals base attribute, plus force, plus any attribute-enhancing cyberware. That can produce some combat monsters in short order, and a mask spell can keep them unknown to everybody else until go time.

And a houngan who's channelling a spirit is nigh invincible, remember he adds the Spirit's attributes to his physical ones, and gets immunity to normal weapons. That means unless he's cybered, with a force 6 spirit your houngan now is immune to the effects of all small arms aside from Tazers and weapons using incindiary/Big D's Temper ammo, and he probably has physical attributes in the teens and straight 6s for mental ones. Add in how many powers the Loa Spirit can use and he's probably going to walk right through any Lonestar Team and escape unharmed.

A Houngan or Serviteur gains all the powers of the spirit when possessed by the spirit, which is 12 hours or until the spirit finishes whatever task the Houngan ordered it to possess her to accomplish.

One of the powers all Loa Spirits have is Immunity: Normal Weapons.

They all have it, yes, but only as a great form power. A great form loa spirit possessing you may give you +6 to all of your Physical Attributes and Immunity: Normal Weapons, but you are also basically an NPC for awhile, and even worse, you won't even remember what happens while you are possessed! And the 6D Drain afterwards isn't nice, either. You can have the loa spirit possess a serviteur, though. If you have a buddy who's a close combat adept or cybered-to-the-max sammie, then adding the loa's abilities can make a really effective fighting machine.