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Tanegar
Spirit Leash (name subject to change)
Cost: 1PP

By making a Called Shot in astral combat at a -4 penalty, an adept may force a spirit to materialize (if the spirit is currently immaterial) or dematerialize (if the spirit is currently material). This attack inflicts no damage, but on its next turn the spirit must spend a Complex Action to overcome the disorientation of having its state forcibly changed.

Whaddya think?
Sternenwind
PP Cost to low.
There should be a Drain for this Adeptpower.
This Power has three effects. Itís make spirits vulnerable, is stealing them a Ini-pass and has a auto banishing effect against possession and inhabitation victims.

The rule/power has too many holes.
- What about spirits that can not materialize.
- What about spirits that cannot dematerialize.
- If you can force a spirit to materialize, why not a astral projecting mage?
Sendaz
Interesting, just two points

A) you do not list any sort of resist test for the spirit under attack. Even if someone gives me a called shot to the groin I get a resist test for the effects at least so the spiritual equivalent should have something. nyahnyah.gif

B) You make your attack and succeed, the spirit has to spend one complex action to overcome the disorientation so it's not doing anything this IP. Next IP what is to stop someone from doing this again, knocking them back into the astral where they are again disorientated until they can expend a complex action? So long as the adept can win init he could keep ping ponging the spirit back and forth effectively immobilizing it. Not saying that isn't a bad idea, it does tie up the adept to focusing on containing one spirit, but just want to make sure this was as intended.

Tanegar
QUOTE (Sternenwind @ Jun 1 2014, 04:23 PM) *
and has a auto banishing effect against possession and inhabitation victims.

I'm not seeing this. The power affects spirits in one of two states: material and immaterial. A possessing spirit is not in either of those two states. An inhabitation merge isn't a spirit at all, it's a hybrid entity.

I agree that the first draft has holes, so here's the second. The spirit now has an additional resistance roll after the attack roll, and is no longer disoriented. I remembered that using Materialization is already a Complex Action; the spirit can always return to its preferred state, but must spend an initiative pass to do so. I also addressed the Possession-spirit and Inhabitation-spirit cases. Thanks for reminding me about those.

Spirit Leash (name subject to change)
Cost: 1PP

By making a Called Shot in astral combat at a -4 penalty, an adept may force a spirit to materialize (if the spirit is currently immaterial) or dematerialize (if the spirit is currently material). The attack is resolved normally, but does no damage. Instead, if successful (the adept gains at least one net hit on his Willpower + Astral Combat roll), the adept and the spirit engage in an Opposed Test of the adept's Magic + initiation grade versus the spirit's Force. If the spirit wins this Opposed Test, the attack has no effect. If the adept wins, the spirit immediately changes state; materializing or dematerializing as appropriate.

Spirits that do not have the Materialization power, obviously, cannot be forced to materialize. A spirit with the Possession power that is currently possessing a host is, instead, exorcised if an adept successfully uses Spirit Leash against it. If possible, it may attempt to re-possess its former host or possess a different host on its next Initiative Pass. These attempts are handled normally, according to the rules for possession. A Possession spirit not possessing a host cannot be targeted with this power. An Inhabitation spirit cannot be targeted with this power under any circumstances. If it has not yet inhabited a being or object, it cannot be forced to materialize; and once it has inhabited a being or object, the resulting hybrid is not a spirit.
tjn
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 1 2014, 08:37 PM) *
Instead, if successful (the adept gains at least one net hit on his Willpower + Astral Combat roll), the adept and the spirit engage in an Opposed Test of the adept's Magic + initiation grade versus the spirit's Force.
Rolling to see if you get a chance to roll again? The Adept already successfully hit in combat (with a penalty!), and the attack does no damage; the second roll is absolutely unneeded.
Secondly, without the daze or some other secondary effect, how does this power move towards resolving the conflict? At best it's a delay tactic and that's only if it is successful. Maybe instead of a daze, disallow the Spirit to remanifest for Magic passes or something, and thus enabling the team to gtfo and hope the spirit doesn't follow them?
Sendaz
QUOTE (tjn @ Jun 2 2014, 05:44 PM) *
Rolling to see if you get a chance to roll again? The Adept already successfully hit in combat (with a penalty!), and the attack does no damage; the second roll is absolutely unneeded.


That may have been due to my comment earlier about the spirit not getting a resist to avoid being knocked into his other state, comparing it to the groin shot where you have to hit and then the target does try to resist the added effects.

Best to keep it simple where adept makes his called shot and set a threshold for the spirit to beat or get dragged over.

On an alternative idea and one I admit I am stealing from an old D&D psionic book, is maybe rather than causing stun or forcing a spirit to flip its materialized/dematerialized you could make it still work only on a materialized spirit, but rather than kicking it back into the astral it solidifies it more so onto the physical plane, weakening its link to the astral and keeping it there for a set period of time in this state (maybe 1 CT for every hit it missed the resist by) while in the process negating it's immunity to normal weapons during that time.

That could turn the tide on a spirit that is suddenly seriously much more vulnerable to weapon fire or other regular attacks even if only for a short time.
Tanegar
QUOTE (tjn @ Jun 2 2014, 04:44 PM) *
Secondly, without the daze or some other secondary effect, how does this power move towards resolving the conflict? At best it's a delay tactic and that's only if it is successful. Maybe instead of a daze, disallow the Spirit to remanifest for Magic passes or something, and thus enabling the team to gtfo and hope the spirit doesn't follow them?

I'm fine with the idea that not every single power has to be about inflicting damage/debuffs. If you'd like a version that does damage, feel free to modify it. I've changed the spirit's resistance to be more like a damage resistance roll. Instead of Body + Armor, the spirit gets Force + Willpower to resist being forcibly (de)materialized.

Spirit Leash (name subject to change)
Cost: 1PP

By making a Called Shot in astral combat at a -4 penalty, an adept may force a spirit to materialize (if the spirit is currently immaterial) or dematerialize (if the spirit is currently material). The attack is resolved normally, but does no damage. Instead, if successful (the adept gains at least one net hit on his Willpower + Astral Combat roll), the spirit rolls its Force + Willpower against a Threshold equal to the adept's net hits on the attack roll. If the spirit meets or exceeds the Threshold, the attack has no effect. If not, the spirit immediately changes state; materializing or dematerializing as appropriate.

Spirits that do not have the Materialization power, obviously, cannot be forced to materialize. A spirit with the Possession power that is currently possessing a host is, instead, exorcised if an adept successfully uses Spirit Leash against it. If possible, it may attempt to re-possess its former host or possess a different host on its next Initiative Pass. These attempts are handled normally, according to the rules for possession. A Possession spirit not possessing a host cannot be targeted with this power. An Inhabitation spirit cannot be targeted with this power under any circumstances. If it has not yet inhabited a being or object, it cannot be forced to materialize; and once it has inhabited a being or object, the resulting hybrid is not a spirit.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Sternenwind @ Jun 1 2014, 02:23 PM) *
PP Cost to low.


If anything, the PP cost should be lower.

It already needs Astral Perception(at 1pp) to function because adepts can't see astral by default

So whatever the cost is, you can add 1 to the total because of Prerequisite Tax.


2pp to see a spirit and drag its ass to the real world is lameness only matched by distance strike.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 3 2014, 03:22 AM) *
It already needs Astral Perception(at 1pp) to function because adepts can't see astral by default


Why? You could use it on Material World without having to have Astral perception. The Spirit is pretty irrelevant if it is in The Astral, since it cannot really do anything to you from there.
Udoshi
Well, it seems like the point of it is to force it to manifest so the rest of the party can deal with it - instead of harassing dual natured and/or percieving characters only, which they can do from the astral.
An adept can't do that without being able to see what they're hitting.

Additionally, there's the matter of balance - this is a melee attack vs something that can fly.
Oh yeah, and there's the whole called shot mechanic thing, which a spirit resists with 2xforce ANYWAY, making it doubly unlikely to succeed.

No, this whole power is wrong.

0.25 per level - levels beyond the first add a dice pool bonus to 'lock' the spirit in the opposed test
No called shot, instead substitutes for damage.
compatable with unarmed attacks/killing hands, not astral combat. (AC skill optional, but unarmed by default)
And needs rules compatability with Attacks of Will, for mystic adepts with banishment.
Some sort of limited-small drain mechanic, because this is like Banishment but better. It actaully makes a spirit go away, instead of killing the user.

Tanegar
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Jun 3 2014, 08:37 AM) *
Additionally, there's the matter of balance - this is a melee attack vs something that can fly.

This would be where tactics come in. Sure, it can fly, but if you lure it into a building, it can't go too far without being on the other side of a wall/floor/ceiling.
QUOTE
No called shot, instead substitutes for damage.

I could be persuaded on this point.
QUOTE
compatable with unarmed attacks/killing hands, not astral combat. (AC skill optional, but unarmed by default)
And needs rules compatability with Attacks of Will, for mystic adepts with banishment.

It's my understanding that Astral Combat is used to attack astral beings. Unarmed might be appropriate against a material spirit, but I chose simplicity on that score. I also don't know what you mean by compatibility.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 7 2014, 11:11 PM) *
It's my understanding that Astral Combat is used to attack astral beings.
Unarmed might be appropriate against a material spirit, but I chose simplicity on that score.
I also don't know what you mean by compatibility.


Breaking these up because i want to respond to all of these poitns

1+2) Is false in many occassions. Natural Weapons as well as Killing Hands flat out invalidate astral combat as a skill. An adept with it literally doesn't care about astral combat skills, since they get to use their full unarmed instead. (4a 196). Second, killing hands is already based around invalidating spirit defenses, which is also something spirit leash aims to do.

3) Attacks of will are also based around overcoming/overpowering spirit's natural defenses, and exerting your will over their being - its quite literally having the willpower to cut through their ITNW by sheer mental grit. Spirit leash is similarly themed, except goes one step further and messes with their cohesion and ability to interact with the physical plane. They have very similiar themes, and you should look at making their rules work together - perhaps a dice pool/dv bonus per adept power level, or allowing the attack to be made(perhaps with a skill other than Banishing, which adepts don't get unless mystic)

Because you mentioned simplicity - and spirit leash as current is anything but - Here's a game design exercise.
Spirit Leash - Element Ap Half - Whenever a spirit is damaged by an attack with this element, they must pass a Composure Test (unsoaked DV) or their possession/materialization power may not be used or canceled voluntarily until the start of the next Combat Turn, nor may they Astral Shortcut. Additionally, the adept may choose to disrupt a spirit's sustaining of either power.

This gives the adept a choice to lock a spirit into the physical, or kick them back to the astral, and is cleanly worded.

This gives it a base cost of 2 PP to use via elemental attack, and a 0.5pp tax to get killing hands as a prerequisite
Want a called shot nerf to make it harder to use? Change cost.
Want it to not do punch damage in addition? Change cost.
Drain included? Change cost.
Make it a Power instead of an Element, which would work on elemental spells? Change cost.
Make a thematic exception to work on astral entities? Change cost.
Ip/action stealing idea? Change cost.
Reducing the spirit's ability to resist? (2x force attibute tests are a spirit's strong point) Change cost.
Make it a cheap leveled adept ability, with successive levels giving a dice bonus? Change the cost.
Make it a dual-natured attack that can drag astral spirits to the physical, forcing them to manifest? Change the cost.

Rules hiccups to address:
Changing IP amounts: a spirit booted to the astral from physical gains an IP. Do they get it back immediately? Is this a foundation for the lose-an-action idea? What about losses if dragged to the physical.
Manifested quasi-real spirits: spirits are explicitly able to Manifest(like a projecting mage) as well as Materialize, which typically gives them immunity to being attacked if they just want to talk. How does spirit leash work against a spirit in this state? How does it interact with a manifesting Magician?
Percieving adept vs Astral Spirit, using killing hands or a weapon foci? What happens?

Your goal now is to A) Properly balance it and B) word it concisely. Good luck!
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