Hello again!

While I continue to puzzle through the ins and outs of Shadowrun 4th Edition, I've decided to ask a more generic question this time around. Is it worth the enormous BP expenditure to play as a metasapient AI? And if so, could I run around town in a drone while technically "running" out of a harddrive back home? I don't think I'm using the right terminology, but hopefully the thought is clear enough to pierce through my inexperience.

If it's possible, how would you go about making one? The hacking/rigging in this game seems a bit terrifying, and from what I've read the end-all-be-all of the Matrix in 4th would be the technomancer -- a role an AI cannot play. If I want to have fun with drones, should I stick to being a regular ol' mortal?

Thanks!

This is actually the correct way of thinking of things, despite not being couched in system-specific terminology.

Any matrix user has to connect to a remote location through a network path - typically riggers have a radio on their link and their drone. AI are no different from other users in that respect; they are fully able to connect to other nodes without being in them, just like your average internet user.
In fact, its easier to think of a 'hacker' as their hardware/harddrive/commlink that runs their programs.

The complicating factor that really isn't unless you use it: AI's are like Agents, and can change where they are -physically- running. You can be directly running on the drone if you really want to, but it puts you in a vulnerable position if it ever gets destroyed.


Now onto the nitty-gritty: AI's have a few upsides. They can, with karma, get a GIANT Command rating which is one of the most useful tricks in a rigger's arsenal (along with codeslinger: control device).
They also have access to unique qualities you can't get anywhere else. The biggest one of which is Piloting Origin: the first level lets you rig like a human rigger, the second lets you use Autosofts. This is HUGE. Autosofts can replace skills for you, and let you throw money at being versatile instead of learning directly - and if you manage to get a way to whip up code on the fly, like, say Threading or Emulate via Intuitive hacking, you can



Problems: Getting more initiative passes. Outside of edge, it doesn't happen.
Solutions: Ask your GM if you can customize hardware for an AI at the equivalent commlink mod/cyberware mod costs. Potential one-up: if you're willing to pay out the nose for it, a cyborg cranial containment unit is the only non-essence source of a simsense booster in the game. If, you know, you wanted to refluff it as a Wheatley Core.

Problems: Inherent programs kind of suck and don't have other desirable types of software as options. (like autosofts)
Solution: You're not obligated to select them, and can grow into -any- program as an inherent via karma, such as tacnets. If this doesn't fly, consider using the E-ghost quality: It removes them for you, and gives you bonus points.


In general, if you want an AI, try to find a cooperative, helpful GM, though. A lot of the tricks to making them unique/useful/competitive are dirty, dirty abuses of the system. They can be good, but it involves playing to their strengths.
And sometimes pointing out that you're paying 110 points to be a worse technomancer, who does it better anyway.

Thank you very much for that information, Udoshi! It's good to see I'm not entirely out of my mind in this endeavor!

It seems like, with Autosofts, I could focus on maxing, like, Gunnery (with 1 in Cracking Group and 1 in Electronics Group) and then just tool around in a drone with the appropriate autosofts for whichever endeavor I'm going to be on -- is that correct?

Do you have any build advice beyond what you've already given me? Which drones, which stats, which programs? E-Ghost to remove Inherent Programs was a shocking statement -- I figured those were important! Then again, I don't really know what they are other than something that AIs get...

Lets see. Inherent programs ARE good. Analyze is ~absolutely crucial~ on the matrix. Stealth is amazing too - anything above six gives you a significantly longer lifespam while hacking. Exploit is a go-to tool for getting in anywhere.
Its just that the list doesn't let you take some of the more powerful/useful programs. E-ghost lets you make a custom list via karma, of things you wouldn't normally get.

Autosofts replace skills - but they also max out at 4. You would load up, say, a gunnery 4 autosoft as a program. Whenever you pulled the trigger, you'd be rollin something based on your current control type - Command+autosoft: gunnery for Control Device, some combo of Response or Sensor while jumped in, etc. But with profession autosofts, you can use it for anything you want.
This is doubly-so important if you find a way to get Threading - because you can a) break the rating 4 limit and b) asspull nearly any skill you want on the fly. Learning AI, indeed!

I'd consider 1 in cracking and 1 in electronics a bad idea. Making a threading-enhanced AI does tend to stack up -2 penalties, and unlike technomancers, you have absolutely no way to deal with the penalties - this actually makes it fairly balanced, strangely, but it also means you want your core capabilities on skills and with appropriate specializations.

I need to double-check things, but the skillwire/specialization trick may apply here. More on that later.

As far as drones, yes. My drone-fu is over nine thousand. What do you want to do? Are you looking for humano-forms? Cars? Flyers? What do you want to do? Distractions? Combat? Manufacturing? Do you have an interest in larger things like cars, or being your own bike gang?

Get arsenal if you don't have it. Understanding the mod system is crucial to being a good rigger. And the errata. Otherwise you will go nuts figuring sensors out.

Not that I'm an expert or anything, but without a physical form of his own he'll probably need all kinds of drones, especially the sort that can drag cables into shielded buildings with big honkin' transmitters on the end.

Here's a thought as well, the party could carry extra sensors, cameras, etc. that you could use. Even if they were split up you could easily keep everyone coordinated, sort of a Meat Puppet Rigger.

Well, there's the Manservant 3, Ferret RPD-X1, Micro-Tapper Bug, & Repeater Drone for fun toys to use in that regard.

And not just for A.I.s either.

I've found the Gm Fix-it in Runner's Companion is strictly superior. 2 mecharms by default, no nerfed construction, and hey walker mode is overmoddable if you want a cheapish humanoid bot with 2 legs and 2 arms.
The toolkit is just an extra bonus for breaking into places.

Otherwise a good list. The microtapper in particular is underrated. Its in unwired, not arsenal.

If you want the party to carry sensors, consider the basic iBall with an improved sensor array. Its counter-intuitive, but the core book one can actually roll around and has a Speed/Acceleration rating. The limited maneuverability mod in arsenal came later, but since its a modification, you can 'remove' to put the wheels back on.
I like mine with the Offensive Version(cheap upgrade to Security grade and device rating 4!), with gecko tips and an improved sensor array.

I like dragonflies modded for malicious property destruction, personally. Being able to cut things up and fly to normally unreachable things is a delicious combination.

With the Manservant I was thinking something that would be less likely to be noticed in general (hide a leaf in a forest kind of thing). For an in-shop helper and such, the GM Mr. Fix-It for sure.

In a story of mine I've got a character with a dragonfly variant (anti-vehicle yokujin for the micro-welder, described as a mini-laser) modded with the micro-tapper gear of said drone installed. Its also got a few other tricks for sleuthing about.

I was just reading about the Microtapper tonight. That is a cool little mechanical buddy to sic on your enemies; in a hacking/surveillance/I-Hope-No-One-Steps-On-It sort of way.

Underbarrel Modification. Seriously. Having an actual WEAPON mounted on that thing means it has modslots.

Just putting an actual combat knife on it makes it miles deadlier than the shitty weaponry it comes with.

Want to compare notes?

I think you and I are using these drones for different purposes. The AV model I chose was simply for burning little holes into otherwise non-transmitting devices (or those that have a crappy Signal attribute), physically plugging into them from the inside, and then becoming a transmitter. The ones my story character has haven't really ever been used as weapons or combat drones.

So, E-ghost will make a slightly inferior starting character, but as the game goes on, such an AI would be able to evolve via karma into a useful member of the team? Am I misinterpreting that? (I might be, I just wanna be sure! ) As for the Autosofts, they sound like Skill Groups in that way.

Threading is mentioned a lot with respect to technomancers, but I'm not sure how one would "find a way to get Threading." Is it a skill? A quality? A program? I apologize if this is blatantly obvious, I'm still green around the proverbial gills!

When I play around with Hero Lab, I like to get a rating of 6 by having my skills be 5/5/5/6 or 6/5/5/5 (Charisma/Intuition/Logic/Willpower), while also upping Response and Signal to 6. Is that dumb? It takes a lot of BP up, and it's one of the reasons I don't have nearly enough BP for skills to be appropriately high enough. And I look forward to hearing about this skillwire/specialization trick!

"Being your own bike gang" has a certain ring to it... but I think a mixture of combat or distraction would be my preference. That said, manufacturing is a pretty awesome idea, so I'd love to hear about that! I'm getting a mental image of automated factories churning out grenades for chummers, and it's rather amusing.

Dealing with the quoted segment first.
Rating of 6 isn't based on skills, its based on attributes. Guessing that's a terminology mixup
Signal and Response are based on the hardware you purchase, and physically run your program on - which are THEN increased by your home node bonuses.(and you occasionally get wierd situations where you leave your home node - its important to track where your process is taking up computing resources) An ai with intuition six adds +3 response. Why settle for response 6 when you can have 8 or 9?


Autosofts aren't like groups, they are individual skills within a group. They're the robot version of skillwires. The difference is Pistols vs Firearms group basically.
The skillwire trick involves Specializations. A specialization doesn't actually increase a skill by 2, it adds a +2 dice pool modifier on tests using that skill - as long as the spec applies. A skillware "When a skill test is called for, the character may use the skillsoft rating in place of an appropriate skill. If the character already possesses the skill, use whichever rating is higher." Note that this changes the skill going into the dice pool, not the test.
So you're called to make a Logic+Hardware (5) test, its still a Hardware test. You actually roll Logic+Activesoft:Hardware.
Which means street sammies can actually be competitive again, by taking a skill at 1 and the Skillwire spec for skills they want to use vai wires.
The unsuriety comes in because i'm not sure how autosofts(which are NOT activesofts) are worded.
Given this passage on 4a 246 "In essence, autosofts provide drones with specific skills so that they may make the appropriate skill tests." , it should work the same. its just never relevant for drones because they can't learn skills or get specs - they ONLY have softs.

A compounding factor is defaulting on the matrix - programs replace stats online, and you default to stat -1. On the matrix, if you don't have a relevant program, you CANT take that action at all. This is a background reason why drones dogbrains are so dumb. If they're not programmed for a situation, they just derp about.

Getting access to threading is done by taking the Intuitive Hacking quality(unwired), for the superior AI version of threading, Emulate(also unwired) - intuitive hacking lets you pick an action, and perform it, while also disregarding a program it may or may not need.


Manufacturing has to do with a passage on 227 regarding Hardware. ( You can also use it to build your own hardware upgrades; use the Building Hardware Table, keeping in mind that the cost for parts is half the purchase price of the upgrade and following the rules for Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair, p. 138. ). Arsenal modifications use Hardware, and actually reference some Knowledge skills during the Design step. Bonuses are fairly easy to get via Workshops or even Facilities, and drones can be used to fabricate thigns for you (shoutouts to the lockheed vulcan and the mr fixit)
Im not sure you could build your own grenades, but you can stretch your cash out a lot further with a robot scrapyard.

As far as combat drones:
Flyers: Rotodrone(core), lebd-1 (arsenal). Some people are a fan of sniperblimps.
Ground: Steel lynx, doberman(core), crimson samurai (arsenal)

Distractions are generally cheap and ultimately disposable. The stonebrook smokecloud(arsenal) is one. Flashpaks are underrated. The fog-machine-on-wheels from This Old Drone(renraku evening mist?). Things with Searchlight mods, jammers - things you can use to grab attention and force peopel to react to.

Its not so much about the drone you use, as how you equip it. The modification system in arsenal is pretty much key to making a good rigger - there's SO many things you can do with it, but you have to get used to the idea of nested upgrades - things within things.
For example, a drone has Modification Slots based on the greater of '4 or body'. Then it has a Sensor Bay based on size, which can be filled with sensors of varying types - like cameras, which can have their own additions like ultrasound. Then, if it has a weapon mount, the gun you put in it can be tweaked(all guns have 6 slots flat).

a good example of this is here:


I use mine the same way, but with a slightly different approach. First, the underbarrel weapon mod has a size limitation - additions cant be bigger than the base gun. thats 3 mod slots, and the av weapon has six, so we'll take it twice - left and right sides. Thankfully, there's a grenade model we can use to estimate size. Realistically, this limits us to taser, holdout, and knife sized things.

I put a defiance ex taser on it, and either a really tiny monofilmanet chainsaw for cutting into places, or a knife of some kind: vibro knife or cougar fineblade works, but a survival knife is cheap. Str /2+1 comes out to 2dv ap1 vs all targets for 75y, making it actually better and more versatile at cutting into places.
Even if you rule that you can only take 1 underbarrel, and the chainsaw doesn't fit, a dragonfly with a defiance ex is a seriously annoying threat. A lot of people forget it can be used in melee.

All that and we haven't touched modslots!
Gecko tips for hanging places are easily overmoddable with a shop, for hanging onto moving things.
You can give it a Hardware Toolkit via Special machinery, which is a fairly cheap 1-slot mod that many other stock drones have, so its not even that Special.
I typically spring for an improved sensor array, because 5 capacity @ signal 4 is better than 3@3. You can use it for, say, and ultrawideband radar. I'll typically bring a motion sensor just to spot other ultrasound sensors.
And then a mechanical grapple for manipulations.

Fluff it all as changes to the micro-welder array if you wish, but this makes a dragonfly WAY better at chewing its way inside things and messing with their innards.

In story, an Improved Sensor Array is installed in them, but still you're talking about using them as weapons with adding knives and tasers as underbarrel weapon mods (and no argument from me about doing this, either). No ultrawideband radar is in them, but the installed laser microphone (for listening through windows) can easily be swapped out for it. They're otherwise tricked out for general spying, with a few extra autosofts installed to help.

In story the character has added a chameleon coating to them, but thus far hasn't had a reason to add gecko tips. But if ever needed for a combat swarm I'll keep your suggestions in mind.

I tend to like gecko tips because they're amazing to perch in place and stick on anything, which is what you want your spies to be able to do.

Gives the finger to wind, moving cars, etc. It isn't just about getting into position, its about being able to stay there. Also really cheap. 300Y by default, half that if you DIY, twice that if you overmod. Its a tiny price to pay for being stuck to something, instead of being knocked off and having to start the engines up which might break cover.

But yeah, the dragonfly i use is better when its being Rigged as a 1-of-a-kind. Dragonflies running autonomously are better in swarms.

As a "Humanoid" style body I prefer the Tandem to the Manservant, its a bit pricier, but more humanoid.

This is all a lot to take in, certainly, so I'm moving through and digesting bits and pieces of it. I do have a few questions (as can be expected, hopefully!), but also some comments. Yes, I meant attributes and not skills. I realized my foolishness apropos Signal and Response, and I while Hero Lab doesn't let you go over 6 from the get-go, I'm guessing in the 'Advancement' stage of the program I'll be able to put it at 8, where they both belong. My home node, from a Medium lifestyle, gives me fives across the board for hardware, and then is increased by half of my attributes (you know this, but I'm just making sure I know every step of my logic here), so that's +3s to all. Signal and Response of 8 while working out of the house.

On the issue of home nodes, can you have a home node running autosofts and have the AI be able to access them even while interacting with the world through a drone? Or do I need my AI to have the autosofts herself? To continue with autosofts, should I only buy something up to 1, get a specialization, and then buy the appropriate autosoft as well?

On the issue of drones, I can't attach any additional weapons to the dragonfly because it's a minidrone, from what I understand. It does come with lil' claws, though!

Can I be remote-controlling (using my command+X, instead of Reaction+X) a drone while looking out of it, so to speak? Rather, can I be receiving data from a drone while remote controlling it as an AI? I want to stay in my home node while subscribing to my drones, and being able to send commands to them all and receive data from them all would be useful. Furthermore, when I roll Command+Gunnery to shoot the weapons on a drone, do I also roll Computer (Command) in that dice pool? Would it be a pool of 18 or 14 at the moment?

Dolanar, where is the Tandem located? My Hero Lab doesn't acknowledge it, and I have access to SR4A, Arsenal, Augmentation, Runner's Companion, Street Magic, Unwired, Attitude, Hazard Pay, Runner's Toolkit Contacts, Spy Games, State of the Art 2073, and War!.

Here's what I have so far. 750 karmagen, free knowledge ranks equal to (L+I)*3, and I'm aware Day Job and Trust Fund are generally not AI appropriate. This is a special occasion.

Just a note, the GM Mr. Fix-it does not say it is a walker. In fact, the book fails to mention WHAT kind of propulsion it has at all.



-k

oh karmainferno, I've missed you.

I love how you QUOTED me saying 'you can put walker mode onto it with Overmodification', but didn't actually read what i said.
If it came with a walker mode, you wouldn't have to put it on yourself :v

I believe the Tandem comes from Milspectech 2, but will double check.

Thanks, Dolanar! You are correct on that, btw!

Huh. I misunderstood what you were saying. I was more pointing out the embarrassing lack of detail in the rulebook.

That said... since the book doesn't actually say what sort of propulsion it has, there's nothing stopping you from convincing your GM that it might actually have walker legs to start with.


-k

Which would make sense since it is supposed to help the home mechanic with home repairs (or car repairs or whatever version you get). Hard to imagine the typical home mechanic with so much space in his garage he can fit the car and some tracked drone with arms in there as well. These are the sort of things that should be roughly human sized and shaped.
Of course, since they don't specify I guess it is wheeled? Tracked? What is the default transport mode for a ground drone? Anyway, in my games it has legs.

If its supposed to help in the home, and the home has stairs and other things built for occupants with legs, it'd probably make more sense to just give it legs. If it is operating in a big machine shop or factory or something than wheels or treads might be a better choice. I'd just ask the GM and see if you can just pick what it came with. Its not like its a lawnmowing drone that never comes inside and gets to roll around on the relatively flat lawn.

You need to read up on Agents and Payloads, and keep track if where your AI is physically running. It works the same way.
AI and agents are ALWAYS running somewhere, taking up computing resources, Processor Limit, and if THAT computer ever gets blown up its game over. You need to get in the habit of keeping track of your mainframe on a conceptual level.

But you can form outbound network connections from that mainframe without leaving it. Functionally this is IDENTICAL to how a human rigger/hacker works (except for the lack of brain hooked to the commlink, instead you are the commlink).

Your AI can use autosofts in 2 ways: running it yourself to gain the benefit, or running it on a drone doing its own thing. You almost certainly want the first.
f you want the AI to get the benefit of the autosoft, it needs to run it itself. And yes, skill 1 + specialization + autosoft effectively improves the autosoft by 2.



1) yes. When you use Control Device, you're basically controlling the whole thing via a fancy cyber-joystick. The downside is that all actions become Complex Actions. Yes, you can stay in your home node while controlling a drone. You could even rig it. Nothing forces you to move out of your home node unless you want to - you have all the priviledges of a regular matrix user, and that includes being able to connect/subscribe to other nodes without being in them.
Command replaces the attribute portion of linked tests. So its Command+Gunnery. A ballistic specialization in gunnery is ace, and computer skill doesn't factor into it.



The Tandem is decent, but thanks to new writers being bad, it comes with neither legs nor an actual arm. Both of which are expensive to add on in terms of slots and nuyen. Its a decent combat robot - until you come to a door you need to open. Yes, despite the art.

Just wait til you can afford a full-on combat equipped Otomo. You will make most Street Samurai weep with envy.

My 4th Ed Missions rigger was able to buy one towards the end of her career and it was downright unfair how scary it was in combat. Especially since she was a rigger mystic adept and was able to augment it further with magic.



-k

And this is no Joke. Otomo can be scary.

My Cyberlogician crafted a Combat Otomo (as a Body Guard Sleeve for his Girlfriend Metasapient AI) and it was super scary. Made the Terminator look like a Sissy... Scary. So... what do you do when your Terminator Grade, Meta AI takes it into her AI brain that she wants to go and seek out and eliminate the Corporate Dillwad that had her killed (she was a Smart Frame of a Real Person (his real girlfriend) that he programmed, and who later gained Sentience in the aftermath of Emeregence). In the end, I just went along with her, with no arguments. Who is gonna argue with a Female Terminator? Certainly not him.

Alright, I'm curious. How do you guys load out your Otomos? I've done some theorycrafting, but I haven't actually had a chance to use one in-game.