Very basic question guys, but in your personal oppinion, what do you need as a minimum in a group of three players? And how many BP do you need in order to be able to fulfil these roles, if the game is supposed to start out on a low level with rookie runners?
How would you mix up the roles between party members?
Full Version: What do you need as a minimum?
Fighter (DPS/Tank)
Mage (Utility/Healing)
Bard (Sneaky/Talky)
The last two, in MagicRun, can be combined pretty easy.
As of SR4 you could, in theory, have all of it in one char.
Mage (Utility/Healing)
Bard (Sneaky/Talky)
The last two, in MagicRun, can be combined pretty easy.
As of SR4 you could, in theory, have all of it in one char.
Also keep in mind that whatever the party doesn't have can be subcontracted. Hackers, Bodyguards, Even Mages can be hired if you spend enough Nuyen, also contacts can be helpful here.
almost any sort of team can potentially work. it's just a matter of how much you're willing to entrust to NPCs.
the lower down the totem pole you are, the less you need certain archetypes, in fact; defending well against multiple forms of attack costs a lot of money. so, if you're all rookies and low level street scum, you won't likely suffer much from a lack of hackers or magicians (although it absolutely will not hurt in the slightest to have access to those areas of specialty). at the highest levels (ie working for and against megacorporations), you're going to want access to those skill sets, and a team with no access to them will either be very limited in what they can do, or will have to depend on external contractors.
the most basic level which is likely to be protected against are physical violence and social attacks. almost any place will have at least some level of defense against those. the bigger the paycheck you hope to earn, the more you can expect to need access to matrix and magical solutions to effectively get into the places you want to get into, although i don't know that it ever becomes an absolute requirement if you have a good enough face and a convincing story... but it certainly makes it a lot easier on you to have matrix and magical overwatch.
the lower down the totem pole you are, the less you need certain archetypes, in fact; defending well against multiple forms of attack costs a lot of money. so, if you're all rookies and low level street scum, you won't likely suffer much from a lack of hackers or magicians (although it absolutely will not hurt in the slightest to have access to those areas of specialty). at the highest levels (ie working for and against megacorporations), you're going to want access to those skill sets, and a team with no access to them will either be very limited in what they can do, or will have to depend on external contractors.
the most basic level which is likely to be protected against are physical violence and social attacks. almost any place will have at least some level of defense against those. the bigger the paycheck you hope to earn, the more you can expect to need access to matrix and magical solutions to effectively get into the places you want to get into, although i don't know that it ever becomes an absolute requirement if you have a good enough face and a convincing story... but it certainly makes it a lot easier on you to have matrix and magical overwatch.
Honestly, all you need is communication with your GM and fellow players.
The focus should be on what you enjoy playing, more than covering a standard set of roles. SR isn't an MMO where you need a tank/DPS/healer mix to grind content. What you need is a set of characters that your group has fun playing, and whose interactions are enjoyable for everyone at the table.
Focusing on this first will be the best time investment you can make, and you can always spend karma and nuyen to fill in any skill gaps you discover in play.
The focus should be on what you enjoy playing, more than covering a standard set of roles. SR isn't an MMO where you need a tank/DPS/healer mix to grind content. What you need is a set of characters that your group has fun playing, and whose interactions are enjoyable for everyone at the table.
Focusing on this first will be the best time investment you can make, and you can always spend karma and nuyen to fill in any skill gaps you discover in play.
If the crew has reputation or contacts familiar with what they can do, they should be presented with jobs that are a good fit. Why would people with an idea of the team's strengths and weaknesses pass along jobs far outside their areas of expertise? The GM can tailor runs to an extent. For me, bare bones would be some muscle and a hacker, bonus points if the hacker can do legwork and the muscle can sneak around.
QUOTE (Kyrel @ Jun 23 2014, 06:13 PM) 
Very basic question guys, but in your personal oppinion, what do you need as a minimum in a group of three players? And how many BP do you need in order to be able to fulfil these roles, if the game is supposed to start out on a low level with rookie runners?
How would you mix up the roles between party members?
How would you mix up the roles between party members?
3 Players ?
If You only have 3 Players/Runners I wouldn't start low !!
I'd say:
1 Techno (Decker/Rigger) Meta Human (with High Edge)
1 Awakened (Mage/Face) Meta Elf
1 Fighter( either Streetsam or Adept with a Broad spectrum of Fighting Skills) Meta Ork or Troll
BP....425 or rather 800 Karma (for SR4A)
HokaHey
Medicineman
Any combination of runner archetypes is fine. But it means that the GM will have to give them runs that play to their strengths. A Johnson isn't going to hire a team with 2 heavy weapon mercs and a hacker for a job that requires infiltration and fighting off spirits.
My last game started off with three characters who were playing pre-gens right out of the core book: Orc Gunslinger Adept, Elf Weapon Specialist, and Orc Hacker. I had their Fixer only feed them runs that they were able to handle, as any good Fixer would do, since he needs to get paid (and maintain his rep) as well.
They did well and over time diversified what they were capable of doing. The Orc hacker eventually also became a good face-man and did most of the talking for the team. The Orc Adept developed his driving skill which let him work smuggling jobs and be a bodyguard/driver for clients. The Weapon specialist rounded out her combat abilities to include a number of martial arts techniques and training. This allowed her to vary the types of combat roll she could play in any situation.
Half way thru the game we added a Mage to the mix. Because of that the team started getting more runs dealing with magical trouble (Dragons, bug-spirits, etc.), which was a nice change to the dynamic of the game.
Characters can't start out doing all thing, but can work into it over time, which also allows a savvy GM to also change the types of runs the give the team and keep things from getting stale.
My last game started off with three characters who were playing pre-gens right out of the core book: Orc Gunslinger Adept, Elf Weapon Specialist, and Orc Hacker. I had their Fixer only feed them runs that they were able to handle, as any good Fixer would do, since he needs to get paid (and maintain his rep) as well.
They did well and over time diversified what they were capable of doing. The Orc hacker eventually also became a good face-man and did most of the talking for the team. The Orc Adept developed his driving skill which let him work smuggling jobs and be a bodyguard/driver for clients. The Weapon specialist rounded out her combat abilities to include a number of martial arts techniques and training. This allowed her to vary the types of combat roll she could play in any situation.
Half way thru the game we added a Mage to the mix. Because of that the team started getting more runs dealing with magical trouble (Dragons, bug-spirits, etc.), which was a nice change to the dynamic of the game.
Characters can't start out doing all thing, but can work into it over time, which also allows a savvy GM to also change the types of runs the give the team and keep things from getting stale.
1. Dodger (cybered)
2. Sally (magic)
3. Ghost (other)
I'd probably go StreetSam/Rigger, Shaman/Face, Hacker/Rigger or Technomancer
2. Sally (magic)
3. Ghost (other)
I'd probably go StreetSam/Rigger, Shaman/Face, Hacker/Rigger or Technomancer
funny, i'd never recommend a technomancer in a group looking for versatility.
i mean, if you just want an amazing hacker (and to some extent, rigger), then a technomancer is a pretty solid choice. but if you're trying to cover multiple bases, you want a hacker. they can still hack most things, but you also have room to fit in another area of focus because being a hacker doesn't take that many resources... you won't quite be a full street sam, but you can make a very respectable secondary street sam.
if i was going to try and cover all bases as best as possible, the team of three i would pick would probably look something like this:
elven face/shaman (or other charisma-based tradition. focused on summoning spirits mostly, but good support/utility spells, some combat skills that don't rely on magic, and some combat magic that must include a mana-based direct combat spell for dealing with spirits).
ork combat hacker (specialized in hacking, with 'ware and skills for combat, probably a third specialty in vehicles and drones)
<metatype not important> street samurai/augmented adept (areas of specialty include combat, stealth/infiltration, and maybe demolitions - everyone should be able to use a gun decently, but this is the guy who can use a thunderstruck or a grenade launcher reliably as well as punch holes through an engine block).
for bonus points, put some basic levels of skillwires into the hacker and samurai. maybe even the shaman (as well as some other light augmentation; cybereyes and/or ears, for example).
but that's just trying to cover all possible bases. if the goal is to be a bunch of street punks, you don't need to cover absolutely everything... when you're trying to extract an executive from an ares weapon research facility, you want to have every area covered, and ideally cross training where possible. if you're hitting A or AA corps, you want to be pretty good at a variety of things, but you don't need to be masters of everything... your anti-spirit option can be a clip of stick-n-shock, your infiltration can come from skillwires, etc.
i mean, if you just want an amazing hacker (and to some extent, rigger), then a technomancer is a pretty solid choice. but if you're trying to cover multiple bases, you want a hacker. they can still hack most things, but you also have room to fit in another area of focus because being a hacker doesn't take that many resources... you won't quite be a full street sam, but you can make a very respectable secondary street sam.
if i was going to try and cover all bases as best as possible, the team of three i would pick would probably look something like this:
elven face/shaman (or other charisma-based tradition. focused on summoning spirits mostly, but good support/utility spells, some combat skills that don't rely on magic, and some combat magic that must include a mana-based direct combat spell for dealing with spirits).
ork combat hacker (specialized in hacking, with 'ware and skills for combat, probably a third specialty in vehicles and drones)
<metatype not important> street samurai/augmented adept (areas of specialty include combat, stealth/infiltration, and maybe demolitions - everyone should be able to use a gun decently, but this is the guy who can use a thunderstruck or a grenade launcher reliably as well as punch holes through an engine block).
for bonus points, put some basic levels of skillwires into the hacker and samurai. maybe even the shaman (as well as some other light augmentation; cybereyes and/or ears, for example).
but that's just trying to cover all possible bases. if the goal is to be a bunch of street punks, you don't need to cover absolutely everything... when you're trying to extract an executive from an ares weapon research facility, you want to have every area covered, and ideally cross training where possible. if you're hitting A or AA corps, you want to be pretty good at a variety of things, but you don't need to be masters of everything... your anti-spirit option can be a clip of stick-n-shock, your infiltration can come from skillwires, etc.
To echo what has been said, it is the GM's job of making sure your runs line up with what the party is capable of. That said the fewer people you have the less specialized the characters can afford to be. If you have, let's say eight guys, everyone is going to have a specialty and you'll have duplicates at full strength and half-strength to take up the slack if someone is hurt or killed. With a group of 4 to 6 which is sort of typical you can cover everything and probably a bit more.
With three players, I would give them a little extra starting money, karma, and contacts to smooth it out a bit. Maybe going from 400bp to 420 with two free ranks in money and going with the free contact points house rule with the understanding firmly established that... the characters need to be diversified more than usual to make them less brittle.
Example, a character that would normally be focused on only one thing (say a Street Samurai who is focused 100% on shooting guys with a man portable howitzer) would need to invest in a secondary role (maybe as the group's wheelman if there isn't a rigger). A character focused on two things (like the combat medic I've been working on) would get rounded out further to being the group smart guy and secondary combatant instead of just a good rifleman with first aid skills. The decker/otaku might be asked to double up as the group's face with one established combat skill so he's not dead weight in a firefight (the synergy here being that social engineering is just as important as decking ability and gathering information can be handled by one person so if the decker is very successful the face doesn't feel left out since they're the same guy).
With three players, I would give them a little extra starting money, karma, and contacts to smooth it out a bit. Maybe going from 400bp to 420 with two free ranks in money and going with the free contact points house rule with the understanding firmly established that... the characters need to be diversified more than usual to make them less brittle.
Example, a character that would normally be focused on only one thing (say a Street Samurai who is focused 100% on shooting guys with a man portable howitzer) would need to invest in a secondary role (maybe as the group's wheelman if there isn't a rigger). A character focused on two things (like the combat medic I've been working on) would get rounded out further to being the group smart guy and secondary combatant instead of just a good rifleman with first aid skills. The decker/otaku might be asked to double up as the group's face with one established combat skill so he's not dead weight in a firefight (the synergy here being that social engineering is just as important as decking ability and gathering information can be handled by one person so if the decker is very successful the face doesn't feel left out since they're the same guy).
Here are the different aspects a team might need to cover:
- Infiltration
- Social
- Combat
- Matrix
- Magic
You can actually cover all of them with just one character. That requires some mastery of character creation, but it can be done. But most players should be able to easily create a character who covers 2 aspects. A classic 3 person team would consist of:
- A Muscle (streetsam or adept, or possibly rigger) for Combat and Infiltration
- A Mage for Magic (which can be combined with Infiltration or Combat)
- A Hacker for Matrix (which can be combined with Infiltration, Social or Combat
But that's not the only solution. You can play a team with 3 combat specialists who'll solve everything with superior firepower and successfully complete most runs. You can play a team with 3 hackers who are never physically in the field, and successfully complete many runs. All you need to keep in mind is:
1. Play on your strengths, and think according to your skills. I remember a run where we had to kill a team of prime runners. We couldn't match their firepower, but we used our skills to get them to distrust and eventually fight each other. We only had to mop up the rest.
2. If there is absolutely no way you can successfully complete a mission (which should be very rare), you probably won't be hired to do it, and you can (and should) refuse the job.
- Infiltration
- Social
- Combat
- Matrix
- Magic
You can actually cover all of them with just one character. That requires some mastery of character creation, but it can be done. But most players should be able to easily create a character who covers 2 aspects. A classic 3 person team would consist of:
- A Muscle (streetsam or adept, or possibly rigger) for Combat and Infiltration
- A Mage for Magic (which can be combined with Infiltration or Combat)
- A Hacker for Matrix (which can be combined with Infiltration, Social or Combat
But that's not the only solution. You can play a team with 3 combat specialists who'll solve everything with superior firepower and successfully complete most runs. You can play a team with 3 hackers who are never physically in the field, and successfully complete many runs. All you need to keep in mind is:
1. Play on your strengths, and think according to your skills. I remember a run where we had to kill a team of prime runners. We couldn't match their firepower, but we used our skills to get them to distrust and eventually fight each other. We only had to mop up the rest.
2. If there is absolutely no way you can successfully complete a mission (which should be very rare), you probably won't be hired to do it, and you can (and should) refuse the job.
What all my previous speakers said. You don´t need to fit every possible role into these 3 guys. If your GM is competent enough, he can cover all the open holes with NPC´s (ours isn´t, he always forgets the NPC´s and we wonder what they are doing during the run 
) and if your players are competent enough, they can take the control over an NPC by themselves or even play two PC´s at the same time (which was our choice). Now i play a fragile magic-glass-cannon and a big-nasty-troll-tank as some kind of "personal cover". ^^
) and if your players are competent enough, they can take the control over an NPC by themselves or even play two PC´s at the same time (which was our choice). Now i play a fragile magic-glass-cannon and a big-nasty-troll-tank as some kind of "personal cover". ^^
Hitter
Hacker
Grifter
Thief
Mastermind
-k
Hacker
Grifter
Thief
Mastermind
-k
A Charisma Tradition mystic Adept with possession magic and Guardian/Task spirits can cover all spectrums, albeit needing preparation time. You're the Batman/Swiss army knife.
Pure experts will still beat you in your field, but that is the price of being a generalist.
Pure experts will still beat you in your field, but that is the price of being a generalist.
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jun 27 2014, 01:54 PM)
A Charisma Tradition mystic Adept with possession magic and Guardian/Task spirits can cover all spectrums, albeit needing preparation time. You're the Batman/Swiss army knife.
Pure experts will still beat you in your field, but that is the price of being a generalist.
Pure experts will still beat you in your field, but that is the price of being a generalist.
Sadly, Pure experts almost always beat the Generalist, but it is to be expected.
Pixie charisma tradition possession mystic adept AR rigger hacker with Guardian and Task spirits and combat anthroform drone bodies with command chair in an armored chest compartment.
What?
-k
What?
-k
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 27 2014, 09:35 PM)
Pixie charisma tradition possession mystic adept AR rigger hacker with Guardian and Task spirits and combat anthroform drone bodies with command chair in an armored chest compartment.
What?
-k
What?
-k
Otomo or that cyborg drone from Ghost Cartels?
I assume you use Heightened Concentration from Grimoire?
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