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Tiralee
Sorry Hivemind,

But would anyone remember the active skill used for instructing a Metamagic? If it's instruction, as in the basic art of teaching (as per SR3 Companion) that's fine, but I was trawling through MitS and didn't find it spelled out (ha) explicitly.

Happy Fraggin'
-Tir
Stahlseele
Err, Metamagic is learned by initiating right? O.o
Tiralee
Yes, it is, but there's an option on page 70 MitS - to learn from an initiate metamagic techniques.

As opposed to astral questing, free-spirit bargining, etc, that's all.

-Tir
bannockburn
To my knowledge, it is/was a rather vague rule. Some dude with the right metamagic technique tells you how to do it and you gain it. Nothing hard, unfortunately, but if I wanted to add dice to the equation, I'd go with a variation of the rules (or rather: suggestions) on p. 245, with the teacher required to have a fitting magical skill at at least rating 3, rolling a test against TN 4 on this skill, and adding 1 die per two successes to the students learning test (as per instruction rules on p. 95) on the same magical skill, where I would go with a TN of 5 or 6.
Stahlseele
So . . learning Metamagic without initiating?
Whats the point in that, seeing how most Metamagic depends on the initiation grade for it to function properly? O.o
bannockburn
Uh. No. You still need to initiate to learn a technique. That's not even an optional rule in SR3 (as it is in SR4, where you can buy one for 15 Karma), IIRC.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 28 2014, 04:17 AM) *
Uh. No. You still need to initiate to learn a technique. That's not even an optional rule in SR3 (as it is in SR4, where you can buy one for 15 Karma), IIRC.


I believe that that rule was actually introduced (as optional) in SR3, however. Could be wrong, though, since I no longer have any SR3 References to check against.
bannockburn
Turns out, I'm stupid.
Should have just read magic in the shadows, where it says, on p. 70:
QUOTE
To learn from an initiate, the teaching initiate must already know the technique and must be of an equal or higher grade than the initiate being taught. The learning character must succeed in a Magic Test with a Target Number of 8 minus the teacherís grade. Divide the base time of 14 days by the number of successes to determine how long it takes to learn the technique.

So, the TN to learn is quite clear, if the teacher has the instruction skill, I'd proceed as above.
There's even a price given.

QUOTE ("TJ")
I believe that that rule was actually introduced (as optional) in SR3, however. Could be wrong, though, since I no longer have any SR3 References to check against.

Possible. If it was introduced in SR3, it was probably in one of the SOTA books. MitS didn't have it, AFAIK.
Stahlseele
Magic in the Shadows is the SR3 Magic Source Book O.o
Street-Magic is SR4.
And why would you learn metamagic like that?
Do you pay less karma for it like this then?
Else, why not learn it by the initiation you need anyway?
Sendaz
Because as per pg 69 in Magic in The Shadows initiation allows you to learn 1 metamagic technique per grade you possess, assuming you have the prerequisites to learn it.

You do not suddenly know a new technique at the end of the initiation.

You still need to find a source to learn the actual metamagic technique from and this takes the form of one the following three methods: a fellow initiate who already knows it, perform an astral quest or bargain with a free spirit.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 28 2014, 09:06 PM) *
Magic in the Shadows is the SR3 Magic Source Book O.o

You've seen the SR3 tag on the thread, no? wink.gif

QUOTE
And why would you learn metamagic like that?
Do you pay less karma for it like this then?
Else, why not learn it by the initiation you need anyway?

Like what?
For 15 Karma in SR4?

If yes, it is in addition to metamagic techniques you can learn.
Technically, you initiate, then gain a metamagic technique of your choice without the need for a mentor or somesuch.
Street Magic later expanded upon this and introduced the optional way of acquiring metamagic techniques by getting taught or by metaplanar quest or whatever.
This way is in addition to the technique learned upon initiation, and costs 15 points of karma, as well as the cost for the teacher (be it in money, or e.g. services rendered, or possibly more karma in case of a free spirit [edit: strike that, the 15 karma go to the spirit in full]).

For example:
Wynona Witch initiates to grade 1 and chooses to acquire Masking. For this no test or further investment in ressources is required. She just pays her 13 Karma and can now enjoy a raised maximum of her magic attribute, has access to the metaplanes and gains the power to mask her aura.
A short while later she meets someone who tells her of an advanced technique for also masking her focuses, and she gets cracking. She's not the studious type for research, doesn't know any free spirits (or trusts them), and deems a metaplanar quest as too dangerous, so she just tries to find a tutor, at which she succeeds.
She pays him in money and the promise for a future favor, and he rolls his Instruction dice pool, adding a few dice to WW's learning test. After about a week of intense training, she pays 15 karma and now knows Extended Masking, without the need for a second initiation.
At this point in her career, an initiation would have cost 16 points of karma, while also providing all other benefits of initiation (at this point only the increase in max Magic) but this is only an example.
If WW were an initiate of a higher grade, the gap widens.

Personally, I also limit the amount of additional techniques to one per initiation grade, instead of the book's rule of Magic+Initiation Grade
Stahlseele
ah, now i get it. i think. brain not working completely right now x.x
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 28 2014, 12:40 PM) *
Personally, I also limit the amount of additional techniques to one per initiation grade, instead of the book's rule of Magic+Initiation Grade


To be fair, you are limited to the Number of Metamagic Techniques (Total) equal to your Magic + Initiate Grade. So, your "Limit" is the actual rule, assuming that you learned a Metamagic Technique when you Initiated each time, and you keep your magic equal to Initiation Grades, one they reach parity. On the Low end, however, you do have a more stringent limit in place (until they reach parity). smile.gif
bannockburn
It is not the same.
An initiate of grade 1 with magic 5 has a limit of 6 metamagic techniques, meaning, they could conceivably take one with their initiation, and buy a further 5 with karma (provided they don't raise magic to 7 in the meantime, taking the total up to cool.gif.
With my method, they could buy one metamagic technique with each initiation, meaning 2 in this case, total, and unrelated to the magic attribute..
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 29 2014, 05:49 AM) *
It is not the same.
An initiate of grade 1 with magic 5 has a limit of 6 metamagic techniques, meaning, they could conceivably take one with their initiation, and buy a further 5 with karma (provided they don't raise magic to 7 in the meantime, taking the total up to cool.gif.
With my method, they could buy one metamagic technique with each initiation, meaning 2 in this case, total, and unrelated to the magic attribute..


Right up until the synch those ratings (and in all honesty, it is not cost effective to purchase that free Metamagic until they synch up those ratings, for the most part, unless it is concept based). You are paying only 15 Karma points for the Grade 5 Initiation if you are in a group with an ordeal. So, not until you hit the Grade 6 initiation point (which costs 17 Karma) does it even matter when it comes to cost. Which is what I was inferring in my post. You will Initiate until the 15 point Karma Price is cheaper, then it becomes more cost effective to grab the Metamagic over the Initiation Grade, and in many cases this makes a LOT more sense than just initiating again (at least for those who look at the mechanics).
bannockburn
And I never said that it's a mechanical decision wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 29 2014, 06:15 AM) *
And I never said that it's a mechanical decision wink.gif


I agree... Just pointing it out. smile.gif
My decisions for such characters are generally informed by the concept, and there are a lot of concepts where the additional Metamagic is far more likely than obtaining the Initiation Grade is. But not everyone will agree with that sentiment, since it is not mechanically superior. Just wanted to point it out. smile.gif
Tiralee
Thank you all for replying, but Sendaz has hit the nail on the head.

An adept wishes to mask his magic (mainly because he's sneaky-sneaky rather than "I shall tear off your face to add it to my collection") so bargins with a skilled mage he knows. She's initiated (astral quest, ho!) and so knows the ropes and is a bit more cluey about what the whole magic thing.

With her skill of <insert here> she's able to get him "across the line" so to speak (he's already coughed up the karma, just needed the training, as he's self-taught, badly. So no mystic sensei for him!) and get him Masking.


But still, awesome that the hivemind can deliver again:)

-Tir


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