FLC rounds carry packed little metal slivers, yet they do not affect range and do not use spread/choke rules, which means that they're packed into a hollowed-out slug/sabot and travel as regular bullets do, but once the round hits something, the slivers burst forth and cause all manner of havoc?

Anyway, I need a simple clarification of mechanics:
Flechette bumps up the Damage level of a weapon by one, okay, this I can get. Now, the book says that's only for armoured targets, and unarmed get full ball/double impact, whichever is higher, to protect against FLC, and dermal armour negates the DL bonus. Does that mean that anybody with dermal armour does not gain the extra DL hurt an FLC carries?

So, a troll and a human are walking down the street in long coats (4/2 armour) and I shoot an FLC into each one. Example, I'm using the Viper Slivergun, 9S(f). The troll has dermal armour, so he resists 5M, whilst the human without dermal armour resists 5S?

While I'm on the subject, what counts as dermal armour?

On a slightly unrelated note, I'm wondering what stats for 'dart' flechette rounds are.

Ok, your examples were a bit confusing so Im just gonna go from scratch.

Flechette rounds in SR have a very simple effect.
-Against an unarmored target, they raise the damage level of the weapon 1 letter. From M to S for example.
-Against an armored target, they do no addition damage, and the target may use either the ballistic armor rating or twice the impact armor rating (whichever is greater) to defend against the attack. An Armor Jacket (5/3) would provide 6 points of armor agasint flechette rounds for example.

Dermal Armor cyberware, and the upgrade to it Dermal Sheath, are essentially toughened armored skin. As such, having either one negates the flechette damage increase regardless of whether or not the target has any other armor.

The Trolls +1 body die results from boney dermal deposites that make him tougher on the whole. My reading of canon is that this does *not* provide any additional protection against flechette rounds other than the extra body die. However your GM may see otherwise.

It should also be noted that Orthoskin, while not Dermal Armor/Sheath, does provide an armor rating over the entire skin and thus negates flechette rounds too. The various forms of Bone Lacing may also apply, but since these arguably dont provide skin-level protection most GMs would probably rule them out.

Hope that covers everything.

YES THANK YOU! I´ve always negated the extra damage level if the target has any armor. Otherwise you´d always use fleshette, but the book doesn´t make this entirely clear.

Thanks. My example was confusing because I assume the Troll had natural dermal armour (hey, the book says so. SR3 pg56). That, and I used too many shortforms

Don't start thinking about what Flechette is supposed to be. It just is. If you want to be angry at Shadowrun designers, then Search for earlier threads on Flechette ammunition, on the old forum too.

Basically nobody in shadowrun ever uses Flechette rounds. They go in the same box labelled "Completely useless drek" as the Oral Whip, Gel Pack armor mods, Tranq Patches, and cyberhorns.

I thought the Oral Whip was often used by the Elf Assassin/Stripper/Whores? Still drek, though. [Edit]Oops, I was thinking of the Oral Slasher. Yup, Oral Whip is Completely Useless Drek.[/Edit]

Excuse me? No Ares Viper Slivergun?

The Slivergun is extremely effective, just remember to always use called shots to those big, fleshy, unarmoured faces.

Heck, make 'em called bursts to really get your points across, pun intended.

Yeah a called shot to the head will ruin anyones day. So funny how most people don't wear a riot helmet around, ain't it

The Oral Slasher is a great weapon for anyone who's not strong or much of a combat machine. It's almost always going to force a Surprise Test when used out of the blue, and at 6M and a Quickness-linked skill, it's great for those weak but agile characters who like surprise.

The last time I used one was for a Face character of mine. Once the game started, I even managed to snag some Laes to put in the linked Venom Sack. It was *very* nice.

But all that aside, flechette is hardly useless. It's just not that useful against most metahuman targets worth shooting. But against devil rats or most other paranormal critters, it's great. Especially in the Slivergun, which is the only time I'd ever use one.

Heh, my last two characters both used sliverguns. It doesn't matter how good your armor is, if you aren't wearing headgear, a called shot to the face will ruin just about anyones day.

Which is why a significant number of GM's dont allow either the Slivergun, nor bypassing armor via called shots. Both are damn well broken rules wise.

You know, 'Mace' could be a good name for a shotgun...after all, 'A mace to the face will send you running to some plastic surgeon's place' .

The slivergun itself is not a problem, no more so than a FA shotgun...

Allowing called shots to bypass armour is dumb with the existing rules - it will only work properly with a hit location system and properly proportioned armour (helmets should provide what - 7 or 8 ballistic armour?).

The thing about the rules is that whilst not perfect by a long shot are reasonably well balanced and altering any rule requires a lot of thought and regard to that - just look at the arguments that go on about initiative boosts for an example.

Good point

That's kind of what I'm leading to - by adding a houserule for called shots bypassing armour it only makes sense when changing armour values, which only make sense when you use different weapon classifications - presumably in changing damage codes it will also affect unarmed combat.

Each step takes you further away from the existing rules, which will suit some people, but not others. It makes it more difficult to compare experiences (look at some discussions where houserules are mentioned). In many cases it can increase the complexity of the rules (again not a good or bad thing per se) which alters playability.

No matter what, the rules affect the game world - if it suddenly becomes more difficult to kill with a gun then the value of gun skills is reduced - this alters player's approach (even to chargen). I could probably think up more examples, but you get the idea

All of course is taken to extremes and YMMV. Everyone likes to tinker a bit (even me!) and people want different experiences from their game - after all, one of the great things about RPGs is that we can all enjoy them for different reasons.

rant over

How have I? 9M/+3 vs 7M/-2, 4/2 helmets. I consider 2 modified Power to be the "stopping" limit. (That's .357 Mag/10x25 vs 5.56x45.)