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agris
Hello all, first post here. I'm looking for tips as a GM (new to SR) considering a new SR2 campaign. I'd like to follow the adventures chronologically (where it makes sense, I'm going to focus on seattle for the time being), and use any house-rules or aspects of SR3 that make sense. I've heard the combat initiative system in SR3 is vastly superior, for example.

Do any of you have suggestions for SR2 rules changes and initial source books to work from? Also, what do experienced GMs think about the point-based character-creation system presented in Companion: Beyond the Shadows vs. vanilla? These are the sourcebooks I'm considering starting with based on the reviews here http://gurth.home.xs4all.nl/shadowrun/fasa.html

SR2
GM screen + companion (2nd)
Grimoire (2nd)
Virtual Realities 2.0
Street Samurai (2nd)
Rigger 2
Fields of Fire
Awakenings
Cybertechnology
Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows

I'm using this for chronology of adventures: http://nmath.free.fr/onyx/en/notes/line.html crossref'd with this http://gurth.home.xs4all.nl/shadowrun/sour...ok%20dates.html but plan to start my table off with the "first shadowrun" mission from SR1. Any advice for what their first 'real' adventure should be? By the timeline, it looks like Mercurial. Any good homebrewed character sheets or GMs cheatsheets?

A little background on the players' skills and justification for SR2

[ Spoiler ]


EDIT: I've also found the Plastic Warrior files and the compiled Neo-Anarchist Guide to Everything Else (NAGEE). I'd love to know from some experienced GM which of these is worthwhile and what isn't.
agris
Is there a better forum to post this to? The other shadowrun forums (Shadowrun Table Top)?
adamu
No real answers for you here - I am just posting to say how deeply I envy you the experience of getting into the system with SR2.

IMHO, those were the real glory days of the game. Tom Dowd's fluff in books like Street Sam and Cybertech has yet to be topped. And the basic explications of how magic works in the Sixth World from the SR2 Grimoire set a standard that later books really failed to live up to.

Some mechanics issues yes, but then we've come full circle back to that with SR5, haven't we? And Back in SR2 the plot threads were simple and clean, no rationalizing backflips required.

Maybe I'm just waxing nostalgic - I am sure lots of people can point out flaws. But would give a lot to be back in your shoes. Hope you have as great a time as I did.
tete
QUOTE (agris @ Jul 15 2014, 08:05 PM) *
I've heard the combat initiative system in SR3 is vastly superior, for example.


Not superior but its "more fun for everyone". SR2 has the habit of combat being a mini game for the fastest characters and everyone else doesnt matter. They go first and often while their pools refresh. SR3 everyone goes then the fast guys go more and the pools refresh less often.


Id avoid Rigger 2 if you can stand the earlier rules, the Rigger Black Book is less realistic but more fun in play. Rigger 2 introduced the maneuver score which tends to be more of a stumbling block than help in car chases.

VR 2.0 I could go either way on it just depends on how attached you are to the 1e decking vs the 3e decking. 1e is just like the old sega genesis game. 3e/VR 2.0 is easier to cheat with to make hacking less of a mini game. If you choose to go the 1e method (default in SR2) I would shrink the matrix maps to only the key locations. If you have more than 6 locations think about trying to combind things to make it 6 or less. 6 is a reasonable 15 min mini game once the decker is comfortable with the rules rather than the 30+ min the usual maps take.

You should start with Food Fight because thats tradition (I tend to expand it into a drug courier run either making the fight at the beginning or the end, you have to take the drugs to or from the stuffer shack to or from other location, last time I used the Banshee just to set up the scene in Dreamchipper) then I usually go Mercurial followed by Physical (part 1 of Harlequin) then i mix it up. You should also increase the tie in from Mercurial to Dragon Hunt as the adventures are tied but only by very loose hints and not explained well. I also wouldnt try to cram all of Harliquin into 2050, I'd let it spill into 2051 but you may have to alter some hand outs. Theres alot of adventures for 2050 but then it slows down.

Other things to note alot of characters will max attributes they use because its cheap, attributes dont do as much so its ok but its funny to have every character with a body of 6+ after enough karma.
Karma Pool could become a problem as you gain karma because there is no cap, hopefully character have to burn it from time to time to stay alive
There are alot of adventures (like Mercurial) where the idea is great but its really on the rails.
Spell Locks... I remember they suck alot but I dont recall why.
Rules are all over the place and the indexes suck so be prepared to do alot of flipping for anything new that comes up.
I stick to the core book for character creation and characters can earn access to new books through contacts over time. Basicly by taking runs at no pay opens up a new book.
I avoid all the optional rules, because rules are all over the place. Some of them are quite good but I dont want to have to remember what book its in.
Watch out for super specialized characters with the right gear not being able to fail. If you get 12+ dice and can lower you TN with a few select pieces of gear it can get silly easy.
Wounded Ronin
SR2 is a glorious system.

Initiative in SR3 isn't "better". If anything it's weirder for the sake of letting everyone get their shots in.

On the flip side in SR2 if the team has a few combat specialists, you're not dragging the team down by having a guy who is not a combat specialist, as typically that guy might not get any shots off anyway. If you wanted to play an interesting character who isn't supposed to be a combat monster, that's okay, moreso than in SR3 where you'd have more of an opportunity cost for a team member being statistically bad at attacking.

SR2 grounding is a key rule, too, for fun with magical area affect spells.
agris
Awesome, I really appreciate the feedback guys. Could I get some thoughts regarding suggestions I've received on another forum? I'm just going to quote them below. Feedback relating to the suggested rules system (SR3) and splat books is especially appreciated. I was leaning towards SR2, but this post made me think SR3 with the old SR1/SR2 books.

QUOTE
I've run and played a lot of Shadowrun pnp (SR2 was my first and favorite rpg) so I might be able to offer some help. First off, SR3 is basically just a slightly updated SR2 and I can't think of any reason not to run SR3 as it is just more polished/better as a system. You probably heard a lot about SR2 in terms of the setting and adventures being better, which I agree with. They are totally playable with the 3rd ed. rule books though with no real updating. The atmosphere and 'metaplot' (ongoing setting changes) for 3rd ed. always felt worse than what was happening in the 1st and 2nd ed. books to me (and though I started with 2nd it was when 3rd was already out and never owned any 2nd ed. books until after I owned some 3rd ed. ones). For adventures, I recommend starting with 'Queen Euphoria' (which is a 1st ed. book so will need a little updating, basically use the stats for the same gear from the later books) if your players haven't played 'Shadowrun: Returns' and then running the one about the universal brotherhood. A lot of people didn't like the published adventures that were more run of the mill shadowruns (like 'Dark Angel' I think? or was it 'One Stage Before'?) but I think they really give a new gm a good idea of how the writers and designers see the world and how shadowrunning fits in.

For gm advice, I think it is important not to start with all of the 'splat' books (the expanded rulebooks for each type of character) but to gradually introduce them (or elements from them) as you and your players become more comfortable with the basic rules. Don't bother with full matrix/driving/astral rules if no players are involved and only some hired help or what have you. If managing combat pool for the npcs is too much of a hassle then use the rules for threat pools (I think they are called) where they add a smaller number of dice to every test depending on their status (mook, Lt., boss etc). The initiative system in SR3 is better, but less 'realistic' in that each player gets to go once before any player gets to go twice, meaning the wired sammie doesn't finish every encounter before the mage gets a chance to act. I pretty much always played in Seattle and enjoyed how well supported it was, since it seemed like it was where you were 'supposed' to be playing.

Initially I think SR3 and the shadowrun companion for that edition, along with 'Matrix' and 'Rigger' for 3rd if any players are playing those 'classes' then the rules in the corebook are pretty shallow and/or broken. I'd also use 'Cybertechnology', 'Cannon Companion', and 'Grimoire'(?) but only for the gear initially while introducing the extra rules later as desired/needed. I found 'Fields of Fire' full of really badly done gear though and wouldn't recommend it except as info. on Shadowrun mercenary life. 'Mr. Johnson's Blackbook' is a great resource for a gm iirc. and 'Sprawl Sites' is full of good gm reference stuff (maps, npcs). Other good books would be the Seattle sourcebook (the original was much better done than the 3rd ed. one, but obviously the latter is more up to date), 'Sprawl Survival Guide' has good setting material, 'Paranormal Animals of North America' was the only full bestiary for NA but has 1st ed. rules (otherwise nice though), and the 'Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life' seemed really cool and full of atmosphere, the 'Corporate Security Guide' is full of great advice/npcs for creating the location and opposition on your typical shadowrun, and the Lonestar book covers cops in more detail.

I'm sure I missed some good stuff, but I know I named a lot of books already, I tried to include what they are good for but if I can provide any more info. let me know. (Street Samurai Catalog looked way cooler than Cannon Companion but had less stuff and everything it had was updated in Cannon Companion).
tete
In terms of "gear" books SR2 has less stuff but more fluff in each one (like fake reviews of the items) SR3 is basicly gear lists with stats and if your lucky one paragraph describing what it looks like. I like to save Queen Euphoria for later, its a good WTF moment if the players are not familiar with UB. SR2 has a wide selection of rules, if you use all the options you can make 3e except for initiative and spellcasting IIRC. But you can also stick with more 1e version of the rules if you dont use the optional rules. It gives you a lot of choice.
agris
What about the balance of the gear though? Going from http://gurth.home.xs4all.nl/shadowrun/fasa.html one would think Fields of Fire is awesome, but I'm hearing that the gear is unbalanced and rules broken. That's the kind of perspective I'd like to take into my new SR2 game, so I don't make the same mistakes other GMs did a decade ago.

edit: who am I kidding? two decades ago.
Wounded Ronin
At the end of the day you can't go wrong picking either SR2 or SR3. I think if you are going to run a bunch of SR2 modules it will be easier to play SR2 as you won't have to convert lots of crap to SR3, basically.
agris
Makes sense to me. Any house rules / GM sheets that you can point me to? I appreciate the earlier recommendation about module order, I'll read over them. Ditto for matrix play, sounds like I need to make decisions about how I want Decker PCs to play out their matrix missions.
tete
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 16 2014, 10:29 PM) *
At the end of the day you can't go wrong picking either SR2 or SR3. I think if you are going to run a bunch of SR2 modules it will be easier to play SR2 as you won't have to convert lots of crap to SR3, basically.


+1, but hes going to be running SR1 adventures in the begining with the fun variable weapon staging and some skill/pool changes. Still 1e,2e,3e super easy to convert between them. Its always a question with the guys I play with do we want it to feel more shadowrun or be a better system and that depends on the day. The skill web is very shadowrun and enjoyable till you get tired of it and prefer more streamlined defaulting but streamlined is dull after enough time, better go back to the goofy skill web, its interesting, rinse wash repeat. When I run classic I tend to pick SR2 because we are going to play 2050 to 2055 or so and I want it to have all the shadowrun tropes if I want something more streamlined I'll run 4A in 2072 which doesnt feel anything like the old shadowrun.

3e is a really solid edition though with mimimal buy in as the extra gear books are fewer.
Smash
I think there are valid points in relation to the older editions fluff being 'just better' than what we got with 4th and 5th Ed. The Dystopia is gone in the new editions, as is the sense that the Megacoprps are more than just... well.... corporations. Maybe it's because the world today is more dystopian than we realise but I digress....

However, these are no reasons to actually play those god awful editions. In terms of Shadowrun, besides perhaps the way intitiative changed from 3rd to 4th edition, the bigger the edition number the better. Yes, this includes 5th Ed. We can whinge about book editing or conceptually not liking limits but for all intents purposes it's the best system to date (which still isn't saying much).

My advice would be to use the fluff of the older editions and use the mechanics of 5th ed. Otherwise you'll try and run the matrix once in 2nd Ed and flee from Shadowrun never to return................
agris
QUOTE (Smash @ Jul 16 2014, 09:12 PM) *
I think there are valid points in relation to the older editions fluff being 'just better' than what we got with 4th and 5th Ed. The Dystopia is gone in the new editions, as is the sense that the Megacoprps are more than just... well.... corporations. Maybe it's because the world today is more dystopian than we realise but I digress....

However, these are no reasons to actually play those god awful editions. In terms of Shadowrun, besides perhaps the way intitiative changed from 3rd to 4th edition, the bigger the edition number the better. Yes, this includes 5th Ed. We can whinge about book editing or conceptually not liking limits but for all intents purposes it's the best system to date (which still isn't saying much).

My advice would be to use the fluff of the older editions and use the mechanics of 5th ed. Otherwise you'll try and run the matrix once in 2nd Ed and flee from Shadowrun never to return................

Could you provide some examples of how SR5 is 'better' than SR2, and how you quantify better? I understand from the prior responses that decking divides the party in older editions, so no need to rehash that.
tete
It still divides the party in 4-5e they just tell you not to look behind the curtain. When it is faster is they moved to a fixed target number so you never having to calculate that. They also dumped storage memory which was never that big of an issue but does come up occationally and they moved from double digit active memory to single digit, ie the math is smaller numbers and crazy simple, program always equal to 1, where as 1-3 you could have one that 32, 10, 45 etc etc. So a bit more math but once you know your programs it goes fast.

Then theres the problem everyone talks about that doesnt really exist. See in 1e days, trying to be hip like cyberpunk (its the only reason I can think of) they made these horrible big system maps, this tradition continued until VR 2.0, where they started saying dont look behind the curtain. You see they figured out these maps suck so they started making the nodes more and more generic so you could trim down your map. 4e went even farther and just calls them nodes, not even acknowledging the system maps until unwired came out and then they still keep the example maps small. However some of us who didnt get hung up on the offical adventure map figured out you could do this in 1e. Theres only like 6 types of nodes to begin with and 1 of them is redundant and others can be combined. The maps you will see will have 10+ DS (Datastores) but only one containing the info needed... Well I tend to remove the other 9 when I run it. You can also remove the SM (Slave Module) to speed up play, they control cameras and such but really if you take over the CPU the difficulty of the SMs is usually segnificalty weaker so why not just give the CPU the ability to control cameras and such. Now your down to 3 nodes to hack SAN ->CPU -> DS externally, or if the decker goes inside IO -> CPU -> DS. What about active alerts and such you say. Well your going to have to play with that a bit but basicly you just right size the competition so they do better on their rolls. With 3 nodes even a new player should have his decking over with in under 45 min and down to 15 min when he knows what hes doing (and the GM does to), 15 min "break" isnt bad for the other players. The Mage/Shaman can make a 15 min "break" for the other players when they are moving around in Astral Space and if the decker doesnt have combat skills he gets a 15 min "break" in combat while the fast character go and go and go. Id ditch the idea that decking is super fast to, its more interesting when you cut scenes like a comic book or movie where hes just hacked the IO and players have to deal with a security patrol thats about to walk in on their decker etc.

agris
QUOTE (tete @ Jul 16 2014, 11:35 PM) *
Id ditch the idea that decking is super fast to, its more interesting when you cut scenes like a comic book or movie where hes just hacked the IO and players have to deal with a security patrol thats about to walk in on their decker etc.

Awesome awesome awesome. This is the kind of experienced feedback I really appreciate. What do you mean by the above though? Are you just reiterating the need to simplify the matrix structure, making it more comic-like and less.. well, tedious?
Moirdryd
I think what is meant is that Decking used to be X Matrix Turns to Y Physical Turns with X being the larger number (iirc it was something like 4). I would say don't ditch the idea that Decking is ultra fast (otherwise why bother with all the VR, the infamous nanosecond buyout etc?) it's pretty cool for the Decker to be able to do loads at the speed of thought. But when it comes down to the Combat (ie:physical) Turns interaction do what they did in SR5 (and as I used to run in SR3) which makes a Matrix turn = a Combat/Physical turn.

If you do the suggested in cutting down on nodes and stuff then it actually links in quite well anyway and makes party interaction mid run a lot better. Everything happening in the same timescale gets a lot more interesting if they need a matrix override on a door because they get spotted by the security team, but the decker is having to crash or suppressed some IC before he can hack(or command) that system. Less fun if the Decker gets 4 turns of 3-4 initiative passes a turn triggering and derezzing IC, hacking systems, jumping hosts etc before anything happens with the ground team.
pragma
I have experience with SR3, SR4 and SR5. I'm a big fan of SR3 because it's where I started, and you can have a great time with it.

Watch out for characters optimizing combat pool as that can make them quite scary.

This is especially bad when combined with rigging rules from SR3 because the rigger pool can be used for dodge. Consequently, a well built rigger can always just throw more dice at the problem.

I'd look to SR4 or SR5 for inspiration for how to run vehicles, I think they finally got rigging right in those systems. Of course, splicing them into SR3 is much more difficult because the underlying mechanics changed significantly.

If you're going to be using SR2 adventure material, then I have to plug Super Tuesday. I loved that campaign: it's plays with Shadowrun tropes in a lot of cool ways.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (agris @ Jul 16 2014, 05:35 PM) *
Makes sense to me. Any house rules / GM sheets that you can point me to? I appreciate the earlier recommendation about module order, I'll read over them. Ditto for matrix play, sounds like I need to make decisions about how I want Decker PCs to play out their matrix missions.


At this point it has been a long time since I've run games, so I'm not sure about resources. I used to have most key rules memorized and didn't use aids.

As far as house rules it depends on what kind of games you want to run. At the time I was really into martial arts so if it's still up on the internet you might find Shadowrun Dead End with a huge array of martial arts house rules.

Raygun also had some really good firearms realism rules.

There is some amazing stuff out there but it depends on the games you want. Maybe just start with the basic rules, though. You don't want to overload in the beginning.
pragma
On the martial arts note: I found the SR3 version of the 'whirling' maneuver to be stupidly powerful. One player abused it to no end.

That said, I'd just start with the BBB and shy away from Cannon Companion and the associated martial arts until you're certain of what you're doing.
tete
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 17 2014, 09:33 AM) *
I think what is meant is that Decking used to be X Matrix Turns to Y Physical Turns with X being the larger number (iirc it was something like 4). I would say don't ditch the idea that Decking is ultra fast (otherwise why bother with all the VR, the infamous nanosecond buyout etc?) it's pretty cool for the Decker to be able to do loads at the speed of thought. But when it comes down to the Combat (ie:physical) Turns interaction do what they did in SR5 (and as I used to run in SR3) which makes a Matrix turn = a Combat/Physical turn.

If you do the suggested in cutting down on nodes and stuff then it actually links in quite well anyway and makes party interaction mid run a lot better. Everything happening in the same timescale gets a lot more interesting if they need a matrix override on a door because they get spotted by the security team, but the decker is having to crash or suppressed some IC before he can hack(or command) that system. Less fun if the Decker gets 4 turns of 3-4 initiative passes a turn triggering and derezzing IC, hacking systems, jumping hosts etc before anything happens with the ground team.


Yes exactly, combat is 3 seconds where as matrix combat is the same (SR2 pg 163) WTF, I swear hes right and its like 4:1, maybe that was a VR 2.0 add on... Anyways the core SR2 book method is written the way I think you should handle combat time so i guess its a non issue... For the decker having a full combat while players sit at the door, I like to make a janitor walk by or give them something to deal with while they are waiting that isnt the guards. Dont do it every time obviously but 50% of the time you can entertain them with something else happening (maybe the cops are pulling someone over outside or something)
tete
QUOTE (agris @ Jul 17 2014, 05:01 AM) *
Awesome awesome awesome. This is the kind of experienced feedback I really appreciate. What do you mean by the above though? Are you just reiterating the need to simplify the matrix structure, making it more comic-like and less.. well, tedious?


I'm more referencing cutting scenes. Return of the Jedi does it pretty good at the end when they are flipping from Luke, to Endor, to the Space Battle. Flip between decking and the real world, the problem is you have to set up interesting things in the real world, also don't be afraid to cut scene in the middle of combat to up the tension. If you can do that well and keep the size of the matrix map to a minimum it works pretty well. Also looking at Mecurial "Hacking Hernandes" this is a rather uninteresting decking solo mission, anytime you run into that just make it a single computer test of some sort and pick a time (say an hour) then take the time and divided by the successes, the decker gets the info in that amount of time. You might also say the decker can let a program just do it and come back while its cranking away. Decking like combat should only come up when its interesting, this isnt a dungeon crawl (ok DNA/DOA is but most are not)
binarywraith
QUOTE (tete @ Jul 16 2014, 04:39 PM) *
Spell Locks... I remember they suck alot but I dont recall why.


Spell Locks are fucking awesome. smile.gif

The drawback to them is that Grounding is a thing in 2e, so walking around with any active focus or spell lock means you are a grenade waiting to go off in the middle of your team if the opposition has a mage in the Astral with any of the Blast spells.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 18 2014, 10:29 AM) *
Spell Locks are fucking awesome. smile.gif

The drawback to them is that Grounding is a thing in 2e, so walking around with any active focus or spell lock means you are a grenade waiting to go off in the middle of your team if the opposition has a mage in the Astral with any of the Blast spells.


Always hated Grounding. frown.gif
binarywraith
On the contrary, I always loved it. It kept mages from turning into D&D characters festooned with magical items.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jul 18 2014, 11:17 AM) *
On the contrary, I always loved it. It kept mages from turning into D&D characters festooned with magical items.


Never had the issue of mages festooned wit Foci. Not even when Grounding went away. Background Counts and Magical Addiction tend to keep the numbers small. smile.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2014, 02:23 PM) *
Never had the issue of mages festooned wit Foci. Not even when Grounding went away. Background Counts and Magical Addiction tend to keep the numbers small. smile.gif


Foci addiction had to be enforced by the GM. Grounding on the other hand was pretty much always in effect.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jul 18 2014, 01:01 PM) *
Foci addiction had to be enforced by the GM. Grounding on the other hand was pretty much always in effect.


Or, you know, the players were responsible enough to do so on their own. Odd, I know, but there you go. Why is player responsibility so looked down upon? smile.gif

Grounding was so horribly abuseable (even if you do not agree with the ways people have come up with over the years) that is was just a bad mechanic. And it provided mages with an almost unstoppable method of screwing over every one else, which was no fun.
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