cip
Jul 17 2014, 01:49 AM
How do you read the rules in the new Street Grimoire:
It says, all "tests linked in any way to magic" receive a negative dice pool according to the background count. Does this include drain? It seems to me, the drain test is linked to magic in a very obvious way. However, the examples given (spellcasting, summoning) seem to suggest only magic manipulating actions.
As background count also affected drain in previous editions, how you read this rule is obviously important for balance. So how do you guys handle this?
Glyph
Jul 17 2014, 01:58 AM
Going by what you quoted, no. I assume by "tests linked in any way to magic", they mean any test that uses the Magic Attribute. Drain uses two mental Attributes, not the Magic Attribute. I don't have the full context here, though (don't have the book), so I might be wrong.
Temperance
Jul 17 2014, 08:46 AM
To make the context clear:
QUOTE (Street Grimoire @ page 32, Background Count Rules sidebar)
A background count impose a negative dice pool penalty equal to its rating for all tests linked in any way to magic (such as spellcasting, summoning, and skill tests that use active adept powers such as Killing Hands or Improved Sense). The exception to this rule are background counts from domains, where a tradition, person, skill group, or skill may be exempt from the penalty as they are used to or aligned with the domain. Dual-natured creatures or purely astral creatures take a negative dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the background count. Again the exception of a domain can apply to specific types of creatures or spirit types.
....
Background count makes Assensing, Astral Perception, and Astral Combat more difficult to do. Impose a negative dice pool penalty for tests associated with these skills.
That's sort of a tough call. All of the examples are active use. The passive stuff like foci are instead reduced by Force or Potency. Drain resistance is a passive roll. On the other hand, "such as..." means the list isn't inclusive.
I'd go with "no", for the same reason that damage resistance tests don't take wound penalties. The penalties are already bad enough.
-Temperance
Glyph
Jul 18 2014, 01:43 AM
They should have gone the SR3 route and had adept powers not affected. Seriously, nearly any adept will have at least one always-on power such as improved reflexes or combat sense. Adepts will pretty much suffer a dice penalty to everything in background count, and it will lead to stupid things such as an adept with improved ability: 1 in a skill in a rating: 4 background count suffering a -3 penalty, compared to what he would suffer if it were an unimproved skill.
Even with this rampant penalty bitch-slapping, though, I am unsure whether it would apply to Drain. I would think if it affected
Drain, that would be important enough to be spelled out specifically. But with how slapdash SR5 rules overall seem to be, I couldn't say for sure.
toturi
Jul 18 2014, 03:50 AM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 18 2014, 09:43 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Even with this rampant penalty bitch-slapping, though, I am unsure whether it would apply to Drain. I would think if it affected Drain, that would be important enough to be spelled out specifically. But with how slapdash SR5 rules overall seem to be, I couldn't say for sure.
I just want to comment that I really like how you phrased it.
SpellBinder
Jul 18 2014, 04:08 AM
Well, at least it was clearly spelled out in SR4. Can't say about previous editions since I don't know those rules.
In a pinch I'd probably use the SR4 BGC Drain modifier (add absolute BGC value to the spell's Force, then calculate) until the next magic book is released.
Added: Forgot to mention that since your Magic attribute is also reduced by the absolute BGC value you're also overcasting your spells sooner. And, of course, this is assuming that you're not in a Domain that's aspected towards your magic in some way.
Stahlseele
Jul 18 2014, 11:37 AM
In SR3 BGC affected drain in only one way.
It directly lowered your magic attribute, so you were into overcasting sooner.
Which you needed to do, because it also lowered the spells force by it's level.
Because in SR3, Drain was only Willpower to Roll.
Bull
Jul 18 2014, 06:58 PM
It doesn't apply to drain, since technically drain isn't a magic test, it's a damage resistance test.
Stahlseele
Jul 18 2014, 07:01 PM
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 18 2014, 08:58 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
It doesn't apply to drain, since technically drain isn't a magic test, it's a damage resistance test.
on the other hoof:
QUOTE
Impose a negative dice pool penalty for tests associated with these skills
what is associated with magic more than anythhing else? correct, drain.
Mikado
Jul 18 2014, 07:53 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 18 2014, 03:01 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
on the other hoof:
what is associated with magic more than anythhing else? correct, drain.
You are right... It is very associated with magic. However, magic and Magic Attribute are not the same thing.
*Edit* Not that it says magic attribute in the book...
Bull
Jul 18 2014, 08:26 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 18 2014, 02:01 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
on the other hoof:
what is associated with magic more than anythhing else? correct, drain.
I realize no matter what I say, you're going to take it out of context and/or draw it in the most negative light possible. So I'll just say thanks for that now, because anything else would be rude.
As for more specifics, I'm the one who sketched out the basics for what would be the Background Count rules, since I needed them for Missions that we were running at Origins and Gen Con last year, well before the Grimoire was even being worked on. So I'm telling you how they are supposed to work. Period. Don't like my help? I'll be happy to fuck off and not reply anymore, because that's time out of my day I could go be doing other things besides coming here for my daily helping of abuse.
Do the rules need clarification? IMO, yes. But that's not my fault, I didn't write them. I'm trying to be helpful here.
Uli
Jul 18 2014, 08:37 PM
I appreciate any and all clarifications. Thank you. Although in this case, I was already sure, it does not affect drain.
Sendaz
Jul 18 2014, 08:46 PM
Indeed, we do appreciate the clarifications as we will be running into the same questions at the table.
bonehead
Jul 18 2014, 08:51 PM
QUOTE (Uli @ Jul 18 2014, 03:37 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
I appreciate any and all clarifications. Thank you. Although in this case, I was already sure, it does not affect drain.
![wink.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Yeah, I though it was pretty fraggin obvious that it didn't affect drain. Thanks for the clarifications, Bull!
Stahlseele
Jul 18 2014, 10:05 PM
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 18 2014, 10:26 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
I realize no matter what I say, you're going to take it out of context and/or draw it in the most negative light possible. So I'll just say thanks for that now, because anything else would be rude.
As for more specifics, I'm the one who sketched out the basics for what would be the Background Count rules, since I needed them for Missions that we were running at Origins and Gen Con last year, well before the Grimoire was even being worked on. So I'm telling you how they are supposed to work. Period. Don't like my help? I'll be happy to fuck off and not reply anymore, because that's time out of my day I could go be doing other things besides coming here for my daily helping of abuse.
Do the rules need clarification? IMO, yes. But that's not my fault, I didn't write them. I'm trying to be helpful here.
no i'm not, and i'll thank you to not spew such bullshit about me.
i appreciate you trying to help but that will not stop me from pointing out such things.
and if i get such a reaction for that, then yes i will actually thank you for fucking off and not replying anymore too . .
or put me on an ignore list, i don't really care either way.
Shinobi Killfist
Jul 19 2014, 03:50 AM
I'd suggest using the missions rules as the street grimoire ones are a fist full of stupid, as is the bast majority of this book. Or at least the second paragraph is. They changed the rating from 1-24 with 1-3 taking the place of what 1 was in earlier editions so the penalties are already massive. With the 2nd paragraph pretty much all but the most powerful focuses, and especially alchemical preparations(potency reduced by rating) are pretty much shut down even in what is now a mild background count. Even totally ass kicking end of your career focuses get shut down in something as minor as a sold out rock concert. I'm for ignoring background counts for adepts as well, as they will basically be mundanes in even fairly weak sauce background counts. Its almost like 2 people wrote it, one was using mission rules so they bumped the already large penalties up to compensate for it no longer borking focuses, and then another person wrote the focuses paragraph assuming the range from previous editions.
For reference the 2nd paragraph. Side note they don;t say what happens if it is reduced to to a point greater than 0. We can figure it out, but it should be detailed instead of a generic they are reduced by the rating of the background count.
Pre-existing active foci, sustained spells, quickened/anchored
spells and rituals are reduced by the background count. If they are
reduced to 0 or less, spells fizzle, wards and rituals collapse, foci
deactivate. A foci cannot activate while under the influence of the
background count. Anchored rituals and quickened spells if they
have not expired revive themselves at 1 point of Force per hour,
up to their preexisting Force. Preparations triggered while within
a background count have their potency immediately reduced by
the background count. Adepts may use a Simple Action to turn on
or off a passive power in cases where penalties from background
counts might exceed bonuses from their powers.
Surukai
Jul 21 2014, 09:54 AM
We might need to try and overlook "RAW" since the W part of SR5 and even moreso the supplements more like Rules as incoherently mumbled.
If the attribute named Magic is involved, -DP, nothing else.
If adept power is _activated_ (it actually says active adepts powers such as killing hands) it gets the penalty. Increase reflexes or improved ability are "always on" and therefore not active powers.
The scale also need to take a chill pill and be more like the older scale of -12 to +12.
The SR4 way of doing it (or grimoire) means that anything above 1-2 BGC makes a magic character a complete dud. To have a binary blanket nuke on magic users does NOT solve the problem of mages being perceived as being too powerful. To go from too powerful to useless only creates a situation where someone is unhappy no matter what.
A lighting bolt is basically a Ruger super warhawk with APDS ammo.
A spirit is basically a very capable large drone that is ultraportable but can (normally) only have one where a rigger will bring 3-5 drones that together are just as effective.
A good decker and a sam that didn't go full retard on his mental stats can be creative and do amazing things outside combat just as the mage can. I'd say you get far better mileage from a good decker in the hands of a creative player that knows how to find interesting things about the plot and use them to give the group some fun to do than you do from a mind control/mind probe spamming munchkin mage abusing boring tactics to avoid the story or fun of playing.
Besides, I am extreeeeemly liberal to dish out notoriety to any mage using any form of mind control. It is frown upon and draws tons of aggro once anyone finds out. If Mr. Johnsson even gets a hint that you have mind control in the group and he won't offer the job, or do it via matrix proxy and offer little to no rewards. And you kill the mage first. I've found out that a big dose of APDS longbursts tend to rip right through most defences a mage can put up.
So, in summary. A scale from 1 to 32 where 30 out of 32 means the magic user shouldn't even bother to take any actions is a super boring and useless way to "control the magicrun problem".
I agree completely with Shinobi Killfist. Fist full of stupid. And it is very likely that two people who never met wrote half the rules each without even trying the numbers.
apple
Jul 21 2014, 12:01 PM
QUOTE (Bull @ Jul 18 2014, 04:26 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
draw it in the most negative light possible.
Considering the quality and behavior of the SR5 crew, you (the crew) make that very easy. Usually itīs enough to simply search for the next cyber air tank wifi bonus.
SYL
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 01:35 PM
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jul 21 2014, 03:54 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
The scale also need to take a chill pill and be more like the older scale of -12 to +12.
The SR4 way of doing it (or grimoire) means that anything above 1-2 BGC makes a magic character a complete dud. To have a binary blanket nuke on magic users does NOT solve the problem of mages being perceived as being too powerful. To go from too powerful to useless only creates a situation where someone is unhappy no matter what.
I disagree... Having played Magical Characters in BGC in excess of 3 (as high as 4 in some of the areas we ran in), I can say that a Magical Character is not a Complete Dud in such a situation. Yes, it is harder to do things, but they are definitely viable. Just finished a Long campaign where a good part of the last year's Runs were in places with BGC 2+.
That being said... SR5 has a different scale of BGC than previous? What is this table of which you speak? Must be in Street Grimoire, yes?
apple
Jul 21 2014, 01:53 PM
Street Grimoire, goes von 1-24, where 1-6 can easily be encountered by everyday actions or runs.
SYL
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 02:39 PM
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 21 2014, 07:53 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Street Grimoire, goes von 1-24, where 1-6 can easily be encountered by everyday actions or runs.
SYL
WOW... what were they thinking?
The 1-12 Range of previous editions worked just fine... Why go all the way to 24?
Oh wait... that's right, to hamstring all those hyper optimizers. Got it.
Stahlseele
Jul 21 2014, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (apple @ Jul 21 2014, 03:53 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Street Grimoire, goes von 1-24, where 1-6 can easily be encountered by everyday actions or runs.
SYL
So . . do you think it will actually be used by GMs in game?
Or do you think it will be used "for cinematic effect because it'd be unfair against magic users otherwise"?
Surukai
Jul 21 2014, 02:52 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 21 2014, 03:35 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
I disagree... Having played Magical Characters in BGC in excess of 3 (as high as 4 in some of the areas we ran in), I can say that a Magical Character is not a Complete Dud in such a situation. Yes, it is harder to do things, but they are definitely viable. Just finished a Long campaign where a good part of the last year's Runs were in places with BGC 2+.
I'll take the example from my last character that went to chicago and met BGC3.
My sustaining focus F4, meant to give me the initative passes to act on similar effectiveness as my sam and adept friends is now a F1 foci, not capable of sustaining even the base threshold for granting a single IP. Even if BGC was 2 I was far better off taking a cheap pill of Jazz and enjoy having 2 IP when the rest of the group had 3 or 4. That alone is some -50% usefulness for the character. It made things harder for sure but that is expected in chicago but not around every single corner as Street Grumble suggests.
With magic reduced to 3, I was already looking at 8-9 dice spellcasting, sustaining that F2 detect life spell meant I'd be down to 6-7 dice on further casts. Note that an F2-3 detection spell is trivial to resist and will only give very limited information. The limit of 3 hits on the test, minus the hits on all resist tests and the range reduced from 240 meters in BGC 0 to mere 60 meters in BGC 3 means I'll be able to fire my Slivergun at them before I even spotted them with detection.
My stunbolt used to be 6 damage for 3 drain with a good chance to hit (10-12 dice versus will of 3-ish + counterspelling) to F3 dealing maybe 3 damage if any at all at the same cost. doing 2-3 boxes is very irellevant when enemies shoot long bursts that deal 12+ net hits on a regular basis. It meant I could maybe take down an enemy in just 4 hits if all connect, but with only 1 IP per turn it means my Sam friend acts no less than 16 times, shooting 32 attacks in the time it takes me to try and wear down one target.
My "Oh shit" alternative, F11 stunbolt for 4 (physical) drain due to overcast was rendered harmless by being just F6 as maximum and only gave me physical drain for an attack dealing damage like my old BGC 0 attack.
My invisibility can't even beat the basic Object resistance required to be invisibility. And I can't summon spirits since a F3 spirit would instantly disrupt and I'd have to oversummon an F6 with risk of massive physical (unhealable) drain to grant -3 concealment where we previously had good mileage from the concealment power to help make sneaking easier etc. Levitate at low force can't beat OR either.
Why even bother nuking myself for stun(or physical) damage that can't be healed by any means to do unreliable damage and unusable support ?
The moment we hit BGC 2 I tossed everything magic out the window, took a jazz and draw my gun. I was reduced to a 300-karma mundane with some points in pistols. BGC 1 was doable, 2+ meant I stopped caring.
I'm perfectly fine with being reduced to useless for shorter periods of time, to give GM access to some "try solve this without using your normal tactic and gear" just like the group's sam might be without his gun during one run or we might have to hide our cyber or gear to even get on an airplane to do some job. It is great fun to challenge the player's to do things in new ways but if BGC is common it just makes a mage boring to play because it is not a smooth scale. It is waaaaaay to steep and way to evil.
Did I have fun in Chicago? Yes, lots It was a fun challenge to feel weak! But it got reaaaally old when we visited Lagos. Combat isn't very interesting when you only get to do something every 4 initiative passes for 6 weeks in a row. I'm glad I at least had the sanity to spend some points in Pistols. I never thought I'd have so little use for "stunbolt" in a campain with so much combat considering how ridiculously overpowered Stunbolt is as a combat spell.
Signed, Surukai the tiger shaman with a trusty old Slivergun.
Stahlseele
Jul 21 2014, 03:00 PM
should have invested in some cyber or bio then
![nyahnyah.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
now compare this with sin/weapon/cyber-ware-scanners being built into basically any doorway or drone that flies overhead.
Or compare it to everybody you shoot at wearing armor and the guns do less damage than they should.
And they get resisted not with only 1 attribute but 2 to boot.
Yes, chicago is for magic active characters what everywhere in the world is for mundanes.
In other words:
You are the 1%!
Welcome to how 99% of the world have to live.
A BALANCE would mean that either
a) EVERYBODY SUFFERS THE SAME
b) NOBODY HAS ANY PROBLEMS
Not anything else.
what the magic players forget is that them not wanting background count anywhere but in scenes they deem cinematically appropriate would be the same as the samurai demanding nobody but him wear armor.
Jaid
Jul 21 2014, 03:38 PM
not really. the rules for armour and dealing damage with weapons were written together, at the same time, and designed to be balanced on that assumption.
background count wasn't even in the same book, and was merely an idea of something that would eventually happen when they wrote the initial magic rules. now, magic was too strong in 4th and i'm not particularly sold on it being weak in 5th (though definitely a bit weaker in some ways), but it really isn't the same. when they were balancing magic, there was no background count to balance it against. now, they did a bad job of balancing magic, but that doesn't mean they didn't also do a bad job of balancing background count.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 03:39 PM
QUOTE (Surukai @ Jul 21 2014, 08:52 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
I'll take the example from my last character that went to chicago and met BGC3.
My sustaining focus F4, meant to give me the initative passes to act on similar effectiveness as my sam and adept friends is now a F1 foci, not capable of sustaining even the base threshold for granting a single IP. Even if BGC was 2 I was far better off taking a cheap pill of Jazz and enjoy having 2 IP when the rest of the group had 3 or 4. That alone is some -50% usefulness for the character. It made things harder for sure but that is expected in chicago but not around every single corner as Street Grumble suggests.
With magic reduced to 3, I was already looking at 8-9 dice spellcasting, sustaining that F2 detect life spell meant I'd be down to 6-7 dice on further casts. Note that an F2-3 detection spell is trivial to resist and will only give very limited information. The limit of 3 hits on the test, minus the hits on all resist tests and the range reduced from 240 meters in BGC 0 to mere 60 meters in BGC 3 means I'll be able to fire my Slivergun at them before I even spotted them with detection.
My stunbolt used to be 6 damage for 3 drain with a good chance to hit (10-12 dice versus will of 3-ish + counterspelling) to F3 dealing maybe 3 damage if any at all at the same cost. doing 2-3 boxes is very irellevant when enemies shoot long bursts that deal 12+ net hits on a regular basis. It meant I could maybe take down an enemy in just 4 hits if all connect, but with only 1 IP per turn it means my Sam friend acts no less than 16 times, shooting 32 attacks in the time it takes me to try and wear down one target.
My "Oh shit" alternative, F11 stunbolt for 4 (physical) drain due to overcast was rendered harmless by being just F6 as maximum and only gave me physical drain for an attack dealing damage like my old BGC 0 attack.
My invisibility can't even beat the basic Object resistance required to be invisibility. And I can't summon spirits since a F3 spirit would instantly disrupt and I'd have to oversummon an F6 with risk of massive physical (unhealable) drain to grant -3 concealment where we previously had good mileage from the concealment power to help make sneaking easier etc. Levitate at low force can't beat OR either.
Why even bother nuking myself for stun(or physical) damage that can't be healed by any means to do unreliable damage and unusable support ?
The moment we hit BGC 2 I tossed everything magic out the window, took a jazz and draw my gun. I was reduced to a 300-karma mundane with some points in pistols. BGC 1 was doable, 2+ meant I stopped caring.
I'm perfectly fine with being reduced to useless for shorter periods of time, to give GM access to some "try solve this without using your normal tactic and gear" just like the group's sam might be without his gun during one run or we might have to hide our cyber or gear to even get on an airplane to do some job. It is great fun to challenge the player's to do things in new ways but if BGC is common it just makes a mage boring to play because it is not a smooth scale. It is waaaaaay to steep and way to evil.
Did I have fun in Chicago? Yes, lots It was a fun challenge to feel weak! But it got reaaaally old when we visited Lagos. Combat isn't very interesting when you only get to do something every 4 initiative passes for 6 weeks in a row. I'm glad I at least had the sanity to spend some points in Pistols. I never thought I'd have so little use for "stunbolt" in a campain with so much combat considering how ridiculously overpowered Stunbolt is as a combat spell.
Signed, Surukai the tiger shaman with a trusty old Slivergun.
I agree, Back Ground Count can be onerous at times, but that is the price you pay for being a Mage. That said, I have always believed that an Awakened character MUST be viable outside his Spells and Adept abilities. For very much the reasons that you detail above. Maybe I am just weird that way. And yes... LAGOS SUCKS!!!
That said... I am curious... How many spells did you have on your 300+ Karma Mage?
I never had the issues you describe above because I had only 2 Combat Spells (Spirit Bolt - A Restricted Stun Bolt Spell, and an AOE Blast Spell (like a Grenade)) and I always carried a few doses of Jazz for when the Increased Reflexes Spell was less than ideal. My DP's for Manipulation Spells was 13 and all other classes of Spells were DP 9. Magic was a 5. When push came to shove, I had an AR that I used in Combat Zones, and always carried a backup pistol, just in case. As well as 2 Flash-Bang Grenades. Spell wise, I had over 60 Spells, so I was never without options (Aspected Mana Static works in your favor in this regard), even if they were limited options. Many useful spells only require a net hit or two, even some of those Detect spells. Yes, as some would say, more hits is better, but even minimal hits works out well, in a lot of cases. Otherwise, he was a Grade 4 Initiate (Masking, Extended Masking, Flexible Signature, Centering).
Signed - "Jenks," Black Magician of Adversary, Forbidden from Killing via Magic.
Stahlseele
Jul 21 2014, 03:53 PM
QUOTE
(Aspected Mana Static works in your favor in this regard)
do i really have to say anything here Tym? ^^
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 04:16 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 21 2014, 09:53 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
do i really have to say anything here Tym? ^^
There is nothing actually wrong with the spell, especially when it can provide you with some options. Particularly when the GM/Table actually use BGC as it was meant to be used (rather than a cinematic hindrance). Not something that you can cast all over the place, obviously, but it is useful from time to time. I think over the years of game play, I actually used it just under a dozen times or so. Came in handy in Lagos (against the Ghoul Assault), though.
Stahlseele
Jul 21 2014, 05:10 PM
Yes, well, i will agree that your group seems to be the only one with enough bgc to actually make that spell reasonable to allow.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 05:34 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 21 2014, 11:10 AM)
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Yes, well, i will agree that your group seems to be the only one with enough bgc to actually make that spell reasonable to allow.
I don't generally have issues with Background Count, or its application, in SR4A. If the chart has doubled in SR5 (how the hell do they rationalize
that one), well, I might start to have issues with it impacting us more than is necessary...
![frown.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
Our GM is pretty on the ball though, so the doubled chart may never be an issue.
SpellBinder
Jul 21 2014, 05:40 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 21 2014, 11:34 AM)
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... If the chart has doubled in SR5 (how the hell do they rationalize that one)...
Because the skill range has also doubled?
![wacko.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
I'd probably just cut all BGC values in half, rounding down, if I ever run anything in SR5 (which is still likely, well, never).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 05:46 PM
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 21 2014, 11:40 AM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Because the skill range has also doubled?
![wacko.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)
I'd probably just cut all BGC values in half, rounding down, if I ever run anything in SR5 (which is still likely, well, never).
If that is their rationale, it is horrible. Skills went above 12 in Editions previous to SR4.
SpellBinder
Jul 21 2014, 07:05 PM
Yeah, I know. Wasn't a serious answer, either (hence the wacko emoticon).
cip
Jul 21 2014, 07:30 PM
Yeah, I just wanted to know about how you guys handled BGC, but ookayy....
![smile.gif](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
For what it's worth, our group decided to apply BGC to all tests linked to or enhanced by magic (drain, enhancement spell, all adept power enhanced tests), but centering. So with centering the adept can ignore lost dice from BGC up to his initiate grade as can the mage concerning his drain. Also, you can't lose more dice than you gained from magic under our house rules.
Will play test soon, let's see how it works.
Shemhazai
Jul 21 2014, 08:48 PM
Note that if a quickened spell that a character payed karma for enters a BGC of its force, it goes away permanently. That in addition to all the ways to detect magic and to make the awakened entirely mundane, what more should be done? Awakened abilities aren't free. If you don't like them, just run a game without them.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 09:31 PM
QUOTE (Shemhazai @ Jul 21 2014, 02:48 PM)
![*](http://forums.dumpshock.com/style_images/greenmotiv/post_snapback.gif)
Note that if a quickened spell that a character payed karma for enters a BGC of its force, it goes away permanently. That in addition to all the ways to detect magic and to make the awakened entirely mundane, what more should be done? Awakened abilities aren't free. If you don't like them, just run a game without them.
Thought that I saw something in SR5
Street Grimoire that contradicts that.
But in SR4A, that is definitely the case.
Sendaz
Jul 21 2014, 09:41 PM
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 21 2014, 05:31 PM)
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Thought that I saw something in SR5
Street Grimoire that contradicts that.
But in SR4A, that is definitely the case.
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Think you may be thinking of pg 32 of the SG
QUOTE
Anchored rituals and quickened spells if they have not expired revive themselves at 1 point of Force per hour, up to their preexisting Force.
By expired for quickened I believe they mean it has not been knocked entirely down to zero by BGC, though I suppose they could have worded it better.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 09:50 PM
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 21 2014, 03:41 PM)
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Think you may be thinking of pg 32 of the SG
By expired for quickened I believe they mean it has not been knocked entirely down to zero by BGC, though I suppose they could have worded it better.
That is the one... Thanks
Sendaz.
Yes, it could have been worded better.
Jaid
Jul 21 2014, 10:12 PM
to be fair, if you have the spell at a decent force then background counts capable of completely destroying the spell should be both fairly noticeable, and quite rare.
though of course, that doesn't hold quite as true if they decided to just arbitrarily doubled background count everywhere relative to earlier editions.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 21 2014, 10:15 PM
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 21 2014, 04:12 PM)
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to be fair, if you have the spell at a decent force then background counts capable of completely destroying the spell should be both fairly noticeable, and quite rare.
though of course, that doesn't hold quite as true if they decided to just arbitrarily doubled background count everywhere relative to earlier editions.
Exactly... On both counts.
Moirdryd
Jul 22 2014, 02:36 AM
It's worth noting that while the In Universe Scale goes from -24 to 24 with Absolute numbers being used for effect (with zero being the standard for most of the Sixth World) the examples scale only runs from 1 to 18. Now coming from 3rd that's still a HUGE scaling. However BGC does fluctuate (something more rare in MitS) it's also the blanket now for everything from just BGC to Aspected BGC, Mana Warps, Ebbs, Voids, Storms and everything. Flicking through MitS you used to start taking damage in a BGC 6 location (this was automatically a Mana Warp), now it's BGC 13 to begin getting hurt.
From my reading of it all 1-3 is what you're likely to see "Regularly" with places like the Redmond Barrens typically having an aspected BGC 1. Any Aspected BGC can be acclimatised to (this is basically the first function of "HomeGround" quality) and it doesn't take all that long if it's somewhere you're likely to go a lot.
Now... 4-6 mentions a whole bunch of places (like MIT&T, Talismongers stores etc) but in most cases you won't notice because of acclimitisation as a lot of the effects to get a 4-6 are essentially Tradition based and if the BGC matches your tradition then you're acclimatised. So your favourite Talismongers got a BGC of 4, doesn't matter to you because you're a Shaman after Shamanistic reagents etc. Want to hit the joint magically and your a Mage? well then you'd be well advised to spend a few weeks popping in and out and getting used to the way mana flows there. In most cases you're looking at individual buildings, or even locations within buildings. Of course places like Chicago are going to be a base 4 and up where it gets worse.
7 and upwards you are looking at Major locations of differing properties, almost all referencing as Ley Lines and Power Sites (or MAJOR bad event or "world" opinion altering places) and becoming more unique and obscure/isolated as the ratings rise. The number of locations for 16-18 could probably be counted on one hand as it is essentially referring at that point to low orbit.
It's got some serious bite to it, but it's also not insurmountable as a vast majority of the stuff out there (as far as Runner's are likely to come up against with any regularity) will be aspected it seems. Do your legwork, get some prep in and even if that Azzie Lab is BGC5 you'll know what to expect and may even have found a way around it (or even to use it).
Shinobi Killfist
Jul 22 2014, 03:48 AM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 21 2014, 10:42 AM)
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So . . do you think it will actually be used by GMs in game?
Or do you think it will be used "for cinematic effect because it'd be unfair against magic users otherwise"?
That would probably depend on how often they totally shut down the other archetypes with similar things. If I had noise 6 all over the damn place every time someone tried to hack, I'd be more inclined to have background count in a lot of places. Outside of super optimized people though most the challenges seem to be balanced against no or few penalties though. Getting mutliple marks on a moderate system isn't easy with no penalties, so I only use noise and other extra penalties for cinematic effect. If the players are in a place where a fight is likely to happen I don't shut down cyber and strip people of their gear unless I'm doing a cinematic effect for the street sam. So yeah I only use background count for cinematic effect but hey if people want to play a game that is 90% about adjusting for penalty dice more power to them.
Jaid
Jul 22 2014, 04:56 AM
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 21 2014, 09:36 PM)
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Now... 4-6 mentions a whole bunch of places (like MIT&T, Talismongers stores etc) but in most cases you won't notice because of acclimitisation as a lot of the effects to get a 4-6 are essentially Tradition based and if the BGC matches your tradition then you're acclimatised. So your favourite Talismongers got a BGC of 4, doesn't matter to you because you're a Shaman after Shamanistic reagents etc. Want to hit the joint magically and your a Mage? well then you'd be well advised to spend a few weeks popping in and out and getting used to the way mana flows there. In most cases you're looking at individual buildings, or even locations within buildings. Of course places like Chicago are going to be a base 4 and up where it gets worse.
so if i've got a quickened spell, i'd better stay the hell away forever unless it's aspected to my specific tradition?
(bearing in mind that many talismongers won't cater to only one tradition, for them having a BGC that high should be a major deterrent because their most powerful potential customers - ie the ones that are initiated - have reasons to specifically avoid their shop to the greatest extent possible. this seems poorly thought-out, particularly considering the initial rules were made with the assumption that chicago, the setting for missions, has a typical BGC of 2... not 4).
SpellBinder
Jul 22 2014, 05:14 AM
And astral concerts will suck. Sure, tempo may have given that venue a bad rep in the early 2070's, but now when the BGC gets to +6 for a sold out concert the whole idea is gonna die by 2080. There's no way you're gonna be able to ensure that everyone is of the same tradition for such an event, especially those who take a drug so they can actually experience an astral concert when they have no other means of doing so normally.
Shemhazai
Jul 22 2014, 09:34 AM
Maybe finding a place with favorable BGC is the key to actually creating a focus.
Talismonger's shop... How about pay the lifestyle to get an alchemical workshop; would a BGC start to accumulate in your house?
Shouldn't sacred ground like shrines, cathedrals or Stonehenge actually be helpful to magic?
And I hate the words "background count" and "aspected", so...
Mana Level: Positive is a bonus to magic, negative is a penalty, and zero is a dead zone where magic doesn't work at all. Places with no bonus have no Mana Level rating.
Exalted (Tradition): Grants a bonus to a tradition. A place may have any number of Exalted ratings, or none at all, for example Exalted (Hermetic): 4, Exalted (Shamanic): 2.
Desecrated (Tradition): Deals a penalty to a tradition. A place may have any number of Desecrated ratings, or none at all, for example Desecrated (Hermetic): 4, Desecrated (Shamanic): 2.
These three ratings would allow great flexibility.
Edit: Alternatively, to avoid confusion, a dead zone could be notated as "Mana Level: Void".
Moirdryd
Jul 22 2014, 11:17 AM
Sure I think the numbers are a little crazy but they're not as insurmountable as once they were (again SR3) acclimatisation is an easy way around such things if a little time consuming. You can still totally draw power from Power Sites and LeyLines etc too, but again it's going to take some time to get to do that. In fact as long as its not a Mana Ebb you can Align yourself with the local domain of BGC and gain benefits. In fact you totally want to do Summoning etc in such places as they add to the Limit of your magical actions.
Astral Concerts will hit a 4 and given that to watch an astral concert there's no dice involved that's hardly a massive issue. Using it to hide and evade from astral pursuit or dodge assensing (a suggestion in the book) is a good idea though.
Like I say, I never touched SR4 so cannot comment on comparisons but in SR3 BGC was1-5 with anything over that being a full manawarp shutting down stuff pretty quick, dealing damage every Combat Turn, effecting Drain pools etc. Also back in 3rd (maybe Bull can correct me) you didn't want to go anywhere near Chicago iirc if you were Awakened without several grades of initiation because that BGC there killed you.
SpellBinder
Jul 22 2014, 06:14 PM
In SR4 I had a street level group run into a blood mage in a +3 BGC aspected towards that mage. The two magicians in the party (one of them an NPC I was running) never had any issues with spirits in previous runs (with the elf face technomancer even having dealt a good Attack Of Will once), but that +3 made that fight the first one that lasted longer than one or two rounds as the whole party had issues with just two otherwise low Force spirits.
Shinobi Killfist
Jul 23 2014, 02:57 AM
QUOTE (Moirdryd @ Jul 22 2014, 06:17 AM)
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Sure I think the numbers are a little crazy but they're not as insurmountable as once they were (again SR3) acclimatisation is an easy way around such things if a little time consuming. You can still totally draw power from Power Sites and LeyLines etc too, but again it's going to take some time to get to do that. In fact as long as its not a Mana Ebb you can Align yourself with the local domain of BGC and gain benefits. In fact you totally want to do Summoning etc in such places as they add to the Limit of your magical actions.
Astral Concerts will hit a 4 and given that to watch an astral concert there's no dice involved that's hardly a massive issue. Using it to hide and evade from astral pursuit or dodge assensing (a suggestion in the book) is a good idea though.
Like I say, I never touched SR4 so cannot comment on comparisons but in SR3 BGC was1-5 with anything over that being a full manawarp shutting down stuff pretty quick, dealing damage every Combat Turn, effecting Drain pools etc. Also back in 3rd (maybe Bull can correct me) you didn't want to go anywhere near Chicago iirc if you were Awakened without several grades of initiation because that BGC there killed you.
Acclimation is a bad rule IMO. You have to live weeks in the background count for it to work. So it basically makes area based ones like Chicago pointless if its part of your campaign, but takes far too long for any run I've ever heard of. If I'm running a Chicago game I don't want the players to basically get a much stronger version of the astral home ground quality for free just because they have lived in and around the CZ for a month. OTOH I don't want artificially inflated numbers to hit the players because I decide to send them to Chicago for a run.
Glyph
Jul 23 2014, 07:54 AM
Acclimation seems to favor the people shadowrunners run against. For any corporate enclave nasty enough to have a bit of a background count, their magical security won't be affected by it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Jul 23 2014, 01:35 PM
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 23 2014, 12:54 AM)
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Acclimation seems to favor the people shadowrunners run against. For any corporate enclave nasty enough to have a bit of a background count, their magical security won't be affected by it.
Which is generally how it works anyways.
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