Hello again!

Question for you. If I have a Conestoga Vista (Arsenal, 110), how much could I haul? I'm trying to bring in supplies [medicine, food, BTLs] to the Kowloon Walled City, and I'm not certain how much I could conceivably bring on a large bus.

Also, if there's a better vehicle for potentially bringing in such supplies, I'd love to hear it. Currently, my load out will be:

Conestoga Vista
-Additional Fuel Tank
-Concealed Armor 10
-Chameleon Coating
-Engine Customization, Speed
-Gecko Tips
-Improved Economy
-Morphing License Plate
-Passenger Protection 6
-Personal Armor 10
-Retrans Unit
-Run Flat Tires
-Satellite Communication
-Smart Tires
-Smuggling Compartment, Shielded
-Spoof Chips
-4x Turbocharger
-Vehicle Tag Eraser

The idea is that I'll be able to roll up and provide basic amenities to the poor folks of Kowloon, get them addicted to BTLs, and be able to slowly create a cult of personality around myself. This bus will be the mobile command unit, so to speak. The Speed customization is to off-set the slowing factor of the smart tires, and the turbochargers are in case I need to get out of dodge quickly, but they don't increase the top speed so they aren't that important. I could easily get rid of them if there's something 4 extra slots would be better spent on.

Anyways! I'm curious about how much weight vehicles can haul, and whether or not I should select a better chassis. Thank you in advance!

Wow. Your character's a real shithead, isn't he/she/other? Also, your GM should deposit a reality check, the Kowloon Walled City was Demolished in 1994.

Anyway, that said...




There's a much better vehicle than converting a bus into a cargo hauler. That would be actually using a cargo hauler.

The Nordkapp Zugmaschine is a tractor-trailer, big rig, eighteen wheeler. It's much more expensive, but it's worth it; even stock, it's faster than the Vista and handles better, if you drop the trailer. Its Body rating is less, but that's okay, because with the trailer, you can upgrade the trailer if you like, too. And you can drop your regular trailer and haul new ones, if need be. I would suggest spending the thousand nuyen and the 2 mod slots to turn it into a sleeper cab, since it's going to be your base of operations, too. Other than that... Go nuts?

The reason I originally didn't consider the Zugmaschine is that the bus seemed more defensible. Hauling large amounts of anything through Triad-controlled territory might end up drawing attention, after all. I might be able to upgrade it appropriately and obtain the same level of protection, if not an even greater level.

EDIT: Never mind, I found the trailer itself! My apologies.

Alternate reality check, Kowloon is still around in Shadowrun (see Runner Havens).

But the trailer concept sounds good -- if anything happens, you can just ditch the trailer and put the pedal to the metal-matrix composite.

I second the Nordkapp Zugmaschine.

How did you combine runflat and smart tires? You sure can't get both at the same time.
What are the Gecko Tips for? I really like to use those, too, but can't really see a use for them on a bus.

On top off my head:
An extra exit point can save you in case your bus gets stuck. Life support will help against chemical attacks and also keep all the nasty stuff in the air down there out of your car.
A smoke projector and oil-slick sprayer will help you lose any tail while running for your life, as you won't be able to outrun mist other vehicles with speed alone. (Note: I once developed a drone that could do that to be able to tack it onto the cars my character stole. The cars were disposable anyhow.)

Also, Kowloon Walled City is a Z-Zone. Your whole setup seems to be rather stealthy. If things go nasty, big guns will appear quickly. We're talking assault rifles, grenades and possibly rocket launchers here, maybe more. Your bus (or whatever you pick instead) is somewhat bulletproof, but certainly not a tank, and has no weaponry or gun ports.
Do you have guard vehicles or drones that can do the heavy shooting when it comes to that? Not everyone is inclined to pay for supplies, after all...

The run flat and smart tires are combined by GM agreement. The gecko tips are mostly because I find they're useful for preventing vehicles from slipping while driving in rain -- it's the oil slicks you have to look out for, but those screw vehicles up regardless. That's why I tend to stick gecko tips on all my cars.

On the suggestions for upgrades -- interesting on all counts. I'll give those some consideration and post a theoretical tractor trailer soon.

Guard-wise, I do have a blueprint for one or two guard vehicles to go in with me, yes. I'm aware not everyone will want to pay, but then again, I won't be charging anyways, so that hardly matters. The payoff will be in the potential cultists.

Also, I haven't heard any mention of the carrying capacity of a vehicle. The rules for carrying mention strength generally, which vehicles don't have a rating for.

---
This is the Mk II. Dropping the trailers seems like a poor choice, given all the upgrades each one provides. I'll have the breakdown of what each trailer provides after the list.

Nordkapp Zugmaschine
-3 Nordkapp Zugmaschine Trailers [the book mentions riggers being used to control 3 cabs and 9 trailers, so it stands to reason 1 cab can move 3 trailers]
-Additional Fuel Tank
-Amenities, Squatter (to double passenger space)
-Anti-theft System
-Concealed Armor 10
-Chameleon Coating
-ECM
-Electromagnetic Shielding
-Engine Customization, Speed
-Gecko Tips
-Gun Port
-Gun Port
-Improved Economy
-Life Support, Level 2
-Lock-On Countermeasure
-Morphing License Plate
-Passenger Protection 6
-Personal Armor 10
-Weapon Mount
--Ammo Bins
--Concealed Visibility
--Gyro Link
--Reinforced Weapon Mount
--Remote Control
--Turret Mount
---Ares Thunderstruck Gauss Rifle
----Chameleon Coating
----Improved Range Finger
----Safe Target System
----Skinlink
----Internal Smartgun System
----Trigger Removal
-Retrans Unit
-Run Flat Tires
-Satellite Communication
-Smart Tires
-Spoof Chips
-Vehicle Tag Eraser
-Pilot 6

Trailer One would be Life Support, Electromagnetic Shielding and ECM.

Trailer Two would be Additional Fuel Tank, Passenger Protection, Improved Economy, Satellite Communication and Retrans Unit.

Trailer Three would be Lock-On Countermeasures, Vehicle Tag Eraser, Chameleon Coating, Anti-Theft System, and Gecko Tips.

I would also add on the alternate reality check that Kowloon walled City in SR is not actually vehicle accessible. Check out the expanded description in Ghost Cartels. You could maybe ride a motorcycle in there but not a bus, never mind a tractor and 3 trailers. This place is nothing but small alleys between multistory slum apartments. Google pics
of the place as it really was. The SR version isn't that much different, just more nasty spirits along with the triads and downtrodden poor.

I appreciate the heads up. Being able to park nearby will suffice, however -- the citizens of the Walled City will still be able to come out and bring supplies back into their area, and will still be able to partake of the matrix access from the sat relay+retrans unit. The vehicle, whichever I end up taking, will be able to blend into the area via chameleon coating. And who knows, my GM might decide to make streets through the Walled City. I'll certainly check out the Ghost Cartels book, though!

If you wind up wielding sufficient local influence, you could probably ge the locals to reinforce the structures and carve out streets large enough to admit the bus/tractor-trailers. That would be consistent with your plans for the cult, yes? Build a street with a big, heavy gate on the front, leading back into the middle of the walled hive where your offloading temple is.

I had considered it, but if I can wield that much influence, I hope to get my people out of the Walled City. The Yama Kings are bad news bears, and I'd like to level the whole Walled City from orbit (it'll be expensive, but I think worth it. Especially if the insect spirit rumors are true!). Getting the potential cultists out of there and into a better living arrangement is a priority -- showing them that I have the resources to provide a better life is why I need this bus or truck for in the first place. Of course, the absurd tractor trailer also has a few benefits, and I think it'll be worth the investment overall. And if it turns out I need to burrow into the Walled City, having them reinforce it as you suggested will certainly be on my mind.

Hmm... do they have rules for things like concrete and rebar prices? They have barrier foam in WAR!, but that's called out as not being conducive to multiple applications. The one meter tall tunnel just won't cut it -- I'm guessing a tractor trailer would require at least 4. I'm not actually certain how tall they are.

That's actually a nice idea for those gecko tips. I'll keep it in mind...

Another tip I got from Dumpshock years ago: Use drones. It's easy and cheap to turn a Renraku Manservant drone into a decent footsoldier. (Scroll right down to the Drone Soldier. The software suites wouldn't fly at my table, but the drones, they're awesome.) Once your drone soldiers are set up behind your gun ports, they'll wreak havoc on assailants. They can also help you unload and will never complain or charge overtime
If all things go south, have one or two extra drones use gecko tips to climb onto the trailers. Instant extra turret

There really are none. It's mostly GM fiat and I think that's okay

This is turning quite interesting.

Don't forget to beef up the sensor suite on your tractor trailer.

It's the first thing I thought of when I read about them. There's the unfortunate side effect of ruining asphalt if you wreck, though, since the gecko tips are super duper attractive.

I have considered drones, but since I'm not a rigger I wasn't certain how useful they'd be for me. I certainly hadn't considered manning my vehicle with them, though -- I figured I'd need to be hiring ShadowRunners of my own! But if I can pull a SAGA edition and buy myself an army...

I can get around them hacking my internal drones because of the ECM, so I don't need to worry about them turning around and turning the interior of my zugmaschine chunky red. But how best should I defend against external hackers? I'm not sure I can slave them to a single super-encrypted commlink as you can with other commlinks, and I wouldn't put it past my DM to bring in swaths of technomancers to turn back the Necron Renraku tide.

Also, thank you very much for that link! His 'Glitch' character doesn't abide by all the rules, but the Renraku soldier does! Although things did get pretty nasty in that thread. So many rude posts.
Alas, that's too bad about the carrying rules. Water and rations aren't light, nor are they compact (well, the water isn't -- ration packs can be quite compact, if memory serves). I suppose three trailers will be sufficient to haul just about anything, but still. The micromanager in me screams.

I intend to overmod the Zugmaschine with an oil slick sprayer, smoke launcher, and perhaps improved sensors. Do you have any suggestions for which sensors I ought to use? Also, should I use a drone to fire the remote controlled gauss rifle? Can a drone get the gunnery skill?

Just use relative examples then when it comes to cargo. Another game system that used weight as a limit to vehicle mods said you could sack a passenger seat for 200 pounds; for easy math, say 100kg of cargo per passenger seat, and at roughly 70 or 80 passenger seats for a bus that's roughly 7,000 to 8,000 kilograms of cargo.

The advantage of a Zugmaschine is that a tractor trailer is capable of hauling substantially more, with about 36,000kg being the legal limit within the United States at this time.

As for sensors, have at least what regular vehicles come with to help avoid suspicion, but trick out what those are (don't stick with Rating 1 cameras, upgrade to Rating 6 and load with mods). You could consider the Lockheed Arachne for a drone gunner (26F but only 1,900 nuyen), a small spider-like drone that comes with gecko tips and a weapon turret (I presume meant to be Remote Control since it has Targeting 4), and as far as I understand standard turrets can hold assault cannons.

That's a neat way of estimating! Thank you very much for it!

My current plan is to buy the bus for more immediate expansion, but to stay away from the Walled City until I have the zugmaschine. Lighter cult activity in areas without as much crippling 'oh dear god life is literally so terrible it feeds daemonic spirits.' Not as much need for gauss-equipped 18 wheelers with Renraku deathdealers aiming out of gunports and spiderbots crawling across the surface.

I'm still really new to SR4A, so I'm not sure what sort of mods I ought to put on an upgraded camera. I'm using Hero Lab as my quick-and-rough rules checker, and it doesn't seem like I can upgrade the cameras directly. The Vehicle package I've got for my zugmaschine currently is "Atmosphere Sensor 3, 2 Camera 6s, 2 Motion Sensors, Radar 6, 2 Smartlinks." Of those, I can upgrade the radar further but the rest aren't modifiable. Is this a quirk of Hero Lab, or did I upgrade the cameras as you had suggested?

Also, apropos of sensor packages, would a zugmaschine count as an extra-large vehicle?

The Lockheed Arachne is a great find! Integrated Pilot 4 isn't bad at all -- if I add on the Adaptability software and perhaps Fuzzy Logic, then it can really make some snap decisions even if I've got my faraday cage active.

Of course, the upgrades I'd want to put on it increase the price by an outrageous amount -- 19,225 per drone, not counting ammo!

Lockheed Arachne
-Chameleon Coating
-Fuzzy Logic
-Improved Economy
-Ammo Bins on Weapon Mount
-Adaptability 3
-Ingram White Knight
--Belt (350/clip)
--Chameleon Coating
--Reduced Weight
--Skinlink
--Smartgun System, Internal
--Thermal Suppressor
--Gyro Stabilization
--Safe Target System

And then the EX-Ex or s-n-s ammo, as necessary.

On their own, though, they're groovy drones. I hadn't even considered looking at them. Thanks for pointing them out!

A hacker/rigger connction will do wonders. Just have him/her/it (my character has an AI connection, though that one prefers a female appereance) swoop in in times of need.
For any other times: You can either run the drones with some IC and a tacnet, that'll need wireless traffic, but boosts their combat ability. Or you can simply switch their wireless off.
Yes, that's right. They'll abide to shouted commands just as well if you don't intend to jump into/remote control them anyhow.
Also, you can slave drones, that's helpful against hackers. It opens them up to Spoofing, though. In my opinion, there's no system entirely hacker-proof nor should there be - I'd hate to see one used against PCs. That said, it's quite possible to make things entirely difficult for the impending hacker

I only found that thread after all the action was gone already. Sure, not all things in there may fly, and the initial rules discussion deterred to an argument of correct playstile... Still, I picked up some useful information there. Glad you could, too.

This is what I use. Doubles for aerial surveillance. Just don't get it shot at, it'll go down.
I present you: Chase, urban pursuit countermeasure drone.

If you fear about it getting hacked, add in some explosive with a remote detonator not plugged into the drone's system and hope the hacker misses it...

Do you know how upgrading a vehicle's sensor rating works? You don't even need the expanded sensor array modification to do it. Just switch every sensor that has a rating (cameras and radar, possibly microphones) for replacements with rating 6, et voilá. If you want a more detailed explanatoin, as away
You can of course switch in a few more exotic sensors. Depends on personal taste, really. I for one like the Utrawideband Radar.


Ever tried to steal one? That's surely a lot cheaper.
I'm kidding, for a character not accustomed to stealing, cleaning and, most importantly, keeping verhicles, that's a tough play. You can however try to negotiate with a local chop shop on the basis of having them do all of the modification, you're a returning customer

I'm not sure if you can simply buy a gyro stabilisator for the LMG and use it on a drone. It's a harness, normally worn around the torso of a human being, definitely not fitted for a small drone.
Internal smartgun costs as much as the original gun (2000), while the external module costs a mere 400. I may be a cheapskate

This topic is so interesting, I'm toying with the idea of getting a Zugmaschine (that's just "tractor truck" in german) for my character as well For the start, I'll be shying away from all the expensive upgrades and stick to the cheap ones, though. I always live in fear of my equipment getting all shot to bits That's why my character has taken to small packs of fighting drones rather than one big, ugly tank. But now that our group troll shaman has kindly provided an awesome team van, I'll mod the heck out of it.

Do tacnets increase the difficulty of being hacked into? I ask because I intend to have 3 or 4 dragonfly microdrones flying around me at all times (for the ooo, pretty! factor, partly) with tacnet running, such that I can make use of my 22 dice pool of automatics if the charm doesn't work. A big fear of mine is that my drones will turn around and dice me up if I face a technomancer or hacker.

Turning off wireless is an interesting option. Since I intend to have fuzzy logic and adaptability, they should be able to work independently of my commands. I might go with that option until it bites me in the rear, and then reevaluate what worked and what didn't when I have the chance to debrief.

The oil slick sprayer is only available for land vehicles, unfortunately. But replacing it with gecko tips would let it latch on to the back of my truck and launch road strips and smoke with relative impunity, all without decreasing my already-hideous speed or handling. I definitely like the concept and the execution!

I knew you didn't have to buy the improved sensor array, but Hero Lab doesn't let you add in things like thermographic, flare compensation, audio enhancement, or spatial recognizer to sensor array things. It might just be a quirk, as I mentioned above, but it also might be the RAW.

Also, why the ultrawideband radar? I've seen it mentioned as a great item, but I'm not certain I understand why it's so groovy.

Well, my day job brings in 50,000 nuyen a month, and I intend to be running a gang here before long, so I'm not overly concerned with cost. But expending additional money when I don't need to isn't in my cards, and even with my income I'd rather not spend ~20k on "disposable drones," y'know? But yeah. I'm not too concerned about the price, and it's easier to buy it than to steal one. I like to know what I'm getting, and a canny GM can include all sorts of evil tricks when you use a used or recently liberated vehicle.

The important part of the gyro stabilization is the articulated arm, I think, which should still be usable. Worse case scenario I would overmod the weapon turret to have the gyro-link, but I'd much prefer to use the gyro stabilizer as it isn't RAW-illegal. As for the internal smartgun, I'd've sworn it had improved functionality if it was internal instead of external... a bonus die or something. That doesn't appear to be the case, though. Regardless, you can't have gyro-stabilizer and external smartgun simultaneously, so as long as my GM doesn't rule I can't get the gyro on the LMG, I'll be paying for that by spending an extra 1,600 on a smartgun system.

It's been super helpful for me, and I'm glad the zugmaschine was pointed out to me! I'd've never considered using it, but now I know how interesting it is! As for the expensive upgrades... yeah. My darling device will cost me 441,900 in its current iteration. Still, not as bad as the freakin' CI-131 Mobile Headquarters. 760,000 base! I mean, it's great, it comes with lots of neat stuff, but it'll cost me an arm and a leg!

But the bus will only cost me 155,500. That's a few months' difference in availability for me, not counting the cost of food and water and drugs. So in about 4 months from the start (I'll be using the [4d6+12]*1000 starting nuyen for the building of face around HK) I'll be able to start the cult up. If I do any shadowruns in that timeframe, I'll also have the ability to expedite the zugmaschine.

No, doesn't help. That's why I intended the IC. Other than that, use encryption, it'll at least slow the hacker down.

Thank you! I forgot about the oil sprayer. The description mentions it being available for aerial vehicles if the GM approves, I kinda went on from there. The issue is gone once use a ground-based drone, though it also loses the ability to do aerial surveillance.

That's not RAW as I remember it. Probably a HeroLab quirk. Chummer allows for it

Short story: It lets you see through walls. Isn't that enough?
The downsides are that it has a max rating of 4 (screwing up vehicle sensor ratings if you follow the rules to the letter) and has an effective maximal range of 100 meters.

That's why I designed disposable utility minidrones of 2200+ bucks

Why not? Of course, they can both inhabit the underbarrel slot and that would be impossible. The external smartgun, however, can also be installed on top of the gun. It's possible to combine both.
For a gyro stabilisator I'd use the modification "Special Machinery (Gyro Stabilizer)", call it a hardpoint to fix the articulated arm on, assign a slot cost of 1 and be done with it. I think most GMs will aprove that one.
I often employ that "Special Machinery" wildcard and as you might have noticed, more drones are always my option number one.

Ah, I see! Good call.

Yeah. I'll probably opt for a ground device. The aerial surveillance would be useful, but I think I'll have a dedicated device for it, one separate from my 'technically an upgrade for a vehicle' drones.

I can't tell if I should trust chummer or not, but it's definitely not as easy for me to use as HeroLab. As I say, it's my rough and quick rules checker. ^_^

I mean, seeing through walls is nice, but not really useful if you're just driving a truck. On a drone, though, definitely useful!


Ah, I wasn't aware you could put it on top. As for the hardpoint thing -- if I wanted to use a hard point (which, I believe, is a modification slot? Like what fuzzy logic uses? I might be wrong about that) then I'd just opt for the gyro stabilization option on the weapon turret. The purpose of upgrading the weapon itself is to avoid using a hardpoint.

The problem I'm seeing here is that the gyro stabilizer is by description not just a weapon modification to be patched onto the gun. It is a firm harness around the weapon's user, with an arm extending to the weapon.

Now, on a small drone like the Lockheed Arachne, what serves as the original big harness?
That's why I was suggesting a hardpoint as "Special Machinery", and yes, for balance reasons, I think it should use up a slot.
Rules-wise, it's kind of a grey area, but I think it's unlikely to slip past any GM. Just wanted to warn you, that's all.

I don't trust Chummer all too much, but for me, it's very useful for brainstorming and adding numbers. If have modified some character files to my needs if somethign was missing or I needed to detail stuff that simply isn't in the books (like Duct Tape!), though.

But once you're in parking position, it'll give anyone trying to sneak up to you a hard time - effectively a up-to-100-meter-kill-zone. Agreed, it's way more useful on a drone.

Just use the Weapon Mount Modification, that is exactly what it is for - Mounting a Weapon to a Vehicle.

I thank you for the advice. I disagree with your point, but I understand where you're coming from in giving it.

I have the weapon mount already. I'm just intending on putting an underbarrel attachment onto the weapon I'm mounting to the spiderbot.

For what purpose, though? If it is for recoil - By RAW, Vehicles suffer no recoil penalty (which does not make a lot of sense for a spiderbot, but there you go).
Optional Rule is that they gain RC equal to their body score.

Yeah, he's right.
My group runs with the suggested/optional rule of RC equal to body, which in this case would be 2.

Well I'll be damned. That saves a fair amount of money.

I think everybody does -- it's an effortless fix for a major WTF

We certainly do. Most of the vehicle grade weapons are unusable without it.

It's not expensive, just pull off a major terrorist attack/bank robbery in downtown HK with the help of 9x9 and the government will level the place for you. Worked for my team.