So one of my players has been proposing various things to add to the game, coming up with their own rules. As i have access to older books than my players do, i often look back at older editions to see if they were in the game before. This gives me a idea of how to reimplement them....sometimes. While some things are left behind in older editions due to changes of in game technology, others don't, which makes me wonder why they are in the books any more.
Are there any things that disappeared and you don't know why? List em, and how do you think they could be reintroduced into the newer editions.
To start this off i have one that is bugging me,
Incendiary ammo: It was last sighted in 3e. Why was it left out of 4 and 5e? How can i bring them back?
Full Version: Where did they go?!
Spirit Power: "Alienation" well established in cannon 1st & 2nd ED, Big D's will and various critter books. Was in serious need of a rewrite, basicly an offensive concealment. House ruled version still used in my 5th Ed game.
Meta Plane trials and locations. Removed probably due to being in game time sink. Been holding out hope might get a mention in elusive Aetherology supplement.
Meta Plane trials and locations. Removed probably due to being in game time sink. Been holding out hope might get a mention in elusive Aetherology supplement.
QUOTE (The Overlord @ Oct 26 2014, 03:54 PM) 
Incendiary ammo: It was last sighted in 3e. Why was it left out of 4 and 5e? How can i bring them back?
Dunno about full blown incendiary, but 4E does have Flare Rounds available for shotguns on page 35 of Arsenal: -2DV, +2AP, but deal Fire elemental damage resisted by Half Impact armor, super cheap, highly available, completely legal.
They're surprisingly effective in the right situations and criminally overlooked - kinda like shotguns themselves. A little weak if you just want raw damage per bullet, but that's not the point of using them, so whatever. If you're creative enough, you can actually do disgusting amounts of damage with these things.
If these don't match the earlier Incendiary Rounds, they can at least serve as a basis for your own house-rules version.
~Umi
How about discounted Essence costs on certain types of cyberware? Used to be you got a percentage off some things, like Move-By-Wire, if you already had other things like a pair of cyberlegs. Now, you could have both arms and legs replaced with cyber versions and you're still paying the full Essence on full body mods.
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Oct 26 2014, 09:44 PM)
How about discounted Essence costs on certain types of cyberware? Used to be you got a percentage off some things, like Move-By-Wire, if you already had other things like a pair of cyberlegs. Now, you could have both arms and legs replaced with cyber versions and you're still paying the full Essence on full body mods.
4th ed kind of had that with cyberware suites.
Program carriers were a part of the 1e rules, and were an important part of the intro fiction and the plot of some novels. But except for a throwaway like in a supplement regarding cellular damage, they were removed in 2e and haven't been heard from since. (I hear there's a short reference to them in 2050, but that's not the same.)
I haven't seen any references to anti-mages in recent editions.
"Program carriers"?
*googles*
Okay, so apparently this was some kind of cyberware? You used it for hacking without a deck for some reason, and you essentially were restricted to your personal skill and any storage you had implanted in your head?
I'm a little stumped why one would use this over a deck, but I suppose the idea is that a deck is big and bulky, and therefor not suited for slipping through security? Kind of a bare-bones mini-deck for covert purposes? It's understandable why they wouldn't show up later on, once decks became replaced by commlinks and you could just get one of those implanted.
~Umi
*googles*
Okay, so apparently this was some kind of cyberware? You used it for hacking without a deck for some reason, and you essentially were restricted to your personal skill and any storage you had implanted in your head?
I'm a little stumped why one would use this over a deck, but I suppose the idea is that a deck is big and bulky, and therefor not suited for slipping through security? Kind of a bare-bones mini-deck for covert purposes? It's understandable why they wouldn't show up later on, once decks became replaced by commlinks and you could just get one of those implanted.
~Umi
Program Carriers are older than Google. Dodger users it on the cover art of first and second edition. Something that's probably connected but is obscure even in first edition is the Program Enabler. Only one reference to it in the core book, where did it go?
Program Carriers caused cancer and possibly other health issues. There's a reference to this in Runner Havens, in the Seattle section, in a text about a politician, if I remember correctly. That's an in-game justification to remove it, because it was considered overpowered.
Talis Cat were in 3rd ed Critters book, but haven't been seen again since then. I suspect that's because their "illusion that actually works a bit like a shapechange" spell caused all kinds of trouble. But I'm a bit disappointed, because I liked the concept.
Talis Cat were in 3rd ed Critters book, but haven't been seen again since then. I suspect that's because their "illusion that actually works a bit like a shapechange" spell caused all kinds of trouble. But I'm a bit disappointed, because I liked the concept.
QUOTE (Blade @ Oct 27 2014, 08:01 AM)
Talis Cat were in 3rd ed Critters book, but haven't been seen again since then. I suspect that's because their "illusion that actually works a bit like a shapechange" spell caused all kinds of trouble. But I'm a bit disappointed, because I liked the concept.
Talis Cats are back on pg 32 of Parazoology 2
QUOTE (Parazoology 2 pg32 )
When shapeshifters were first identified, there were a few
elusive and puzzling species. One of them was the talis cat, originally
mistaken for a shapeshifting cheetah. It wasn’t until 2049 that a parazoology
student discovered that it was an Awakened animal with both a
larger and smaller form. It was generally assumed for a few years that the
talis cat’s ability was an illusion, masking the larger form from detection
by prey. This was later dismissed when captured species of talis cats were
able to escape after they shifted forms and walked between the bars.
Talis cats can breed all year round, with the females having litters
between one and three kittens. They have an unusually wide range of
vocalizations, including purrs, whistles, yaps, chattering sounds, and
even a bird-like chirp that they use to communicate with each other.
Talis cats live in small prides of four to six adults with a dominate
female.
elusive and puzzling species. One of them was the talis cat, originally
mistaken for a shapeshifting cheetah. It wasn’t until 2049 that a parazoology
student discovered that it was an Awakened animal with both a
larger and smaller form. It was generally assumed for a few years that the
talis cat’s ability was an illusion, masking the larger form from detection
by prey. This was later dismissed when captured species of talis cats were
able to escape after they shifted forms and walked between the bars.
Talis cats can breed all year round, with the females having litters
between one and three kittens. They have an unusually wide range of
vocalizations, including purrs, whistles, yaps, chattering sounds, and
even a bird-like chirp that they use to communicate with each other.
Talis cats live in small prides of four to six adults with a dominate
female.
QUOTE (Umidori @ Oct 27 2014, 12:04 AM)
"Program carriers"?
*googles*
Okay, so apparently this was some kind of cyberware? You used it for hacking without a deck for some reason, and you essentially were restricted to your personal skill and any storage you had implanted in your head?
I'm a little stumped why one would use this over a deck, but I suppose the idea is that a deck is big and bulky, and therefor not suited for slipping through security? Kind of a bare-bones mini-deck for covert purposes? It's understandable why they wouldn't show up later on, once decks became replaced by commlinks and you could just get one of those implanted.
~Umi
*googles*
Okay, so apparently this was some kind of cyberware? You used it for hacking without a deck for some reason, and you essentially were restricted to your personal skill and any storage you had implanted in your head?
I'm a little stumped why one would use this over a deck, but I suppose the idea is that a deck is big and bulky, and therefor not suited for slipping through security? Kind of a bare-bones mini-deck for covert purposes? It's understandable why they wouldn't show up later on, once decks became replaced by commlinks and you could just get one of those implanted.
~Umi
Decks were bulky and obvious, yes, and cranial cyberdecks weren't a thing. This enabled you to run the matrix without any obvious signs that you were a decker.
Comminliks didn't appear until SR4, and program carriers disappeared around SR2. Cranial decks started to show up then, but they were extremely expensive, and not really a good replacement for a carried cyberdeck. "Program carriers cause cancer" was a later retcon, to explain why they were removed, and it didn't happen until sometime around SR3, IIRC.
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 27 2014, 04:52 PM)
"Program carriers cause cancer" was a later retcon, to explain why they were removed, and it didn't happen until sometime around SR3, IIRC.
didn't cigarettes reappear in common usage in SR because cancer had been figure out, and cures developed? So, wouldn't this retcon be contradictory to the backround of the SR world?
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 27 2014, 05:12 PM)
didn't cigarettes reappear in common usage in SR because cancer had been figure out, and cures developed? So, wouldn't this retcon be contradictory to the backround of the SR world?
It's not so much they have a cure for cancer, but with cloning you can replace damaged bits a lot easier.
Cancer is still a killer if you can not afford treatment/replacement. Cyberzombies are also prone to cancer as their body tries to buckle under.
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Oct 27 2014, 02:12 PM)
didn't cigarettes reappear in common usage in SR because cancer had been figure out, and cures developed? So, wouldn't this retcon be contradictory to the backround of the SR world?
IIRC they're no closer to a cure than we are. They might have some novel ways of treating cancer--ie: better diagnostic tests and nanites to track down and scrape out those hard-to-reach tumors--but you're still left shelling out for expensive treatments and hoping it doesn't come back. (See the Uncontrolled Metastasis negative quality in the 4e Runners Companion.)
Cigarettes are common in SR because nobody gives a drek about carcinogens or consumer safety in the 6th world. Hell, the cops pop Jazz to keep up with all the wired thugs zipping around and that soyburger you got down at the local Stuffer Shack probably has more cancer causing chemicals in it than your average cigarette. And don't even get me started on the air quality in most urban sprawls, you're probably better off sucking smoke through a filter than breathing that stuff straight.
Semi-autonomous Knowbots.
I miss those.
Also I wrote rules a while back to re-implement Otaku in SR5 as part of my slow attempt to created a 2050's version of SR5 to see if it works better mechanically than SR3 for the era.
I miss those.
Also I wrote rules a while back to re-implement Otaku in SR5 as part of my slow attempt to created a 2050's version of SR5 to see if it works better mechanically than SR3 for the era.
QUOTE (binarywraith @ Oct 29 2014, 12:29 AM)
Semi-autonomous Knowbots.
I miss those.
I miss those.
They didn't disappear as much as they were subsumed into Agents. I did like the flavor better, although the full name was a bot of a mouthful.
QUOTE
didn't cigarettes reappear in common usage in SR because cancer had been figure out, and cures developed? So, wouldn't this retcon be contradictory to the backround of the SR world?
Honestly, I don't know. However, I'm also not sure that program carriers actually caused cancer, I think the exact quote was "cellular damage". Which is a throwaway line, it could mean anything, and was just a justification for removing Program Carriers.
Coyote totem 
Rules for rockers and reporters.
Twenty pages of musical equipment.
Twenty pages of musical equipment.
QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 29 2014, 05:55 PM)
Rules for rockers and reporters.
Those rules were fun, but insanely silly. If you rolled well, you could go from Joe Nobody to Mega Star in one show. Or drop just as fast. I wish that could happen in real life. We could get rid of Justin Bieber and One Direction by rolling the dice.
Pretty certain Justin is like an Edge Vampire leeching off his masses so he makes the rolls anyway sadly.
Beiber has a team who writes all of his songs. His tests aren't one-off tests, they're task actions.
QUOTE (Bigity @ Oct 29 2014, 04:33 PM)
Coyote totem
Racoon totem!
QUOTE (Betx @ Oct 30 2014, 02:41 PM)
Racoon totem!
Totem: Feasting Shark...
Honestly, I haven't played properly since 3rd ed, and I've only just picked up 5th, which has inspired my return! I'm still crunching my way through all the books, so I'm not sure yet what's missing - although I know one of my old players would go absolutely barking mad if I were to show him Run&Gun without the old weapon customisation rules!
QUOTE (nezumi @ Oct 30 2014, 09:02 AM)
Beiber has a team who writes all of his songs. His tests aren't one-off tests, they're task actions.
Doesn't negative talent act as a dice pool penalty?
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 30 2014, 04:06 PM)
Doesn't negative talent act as a dice pool penalty?
It should...
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 30 2014, 06:06 PM)
Doesn't negative talent act as a dice pool penalty?
Given the current hit lists, I'm beginning to think the world is in need of an errata because negative talent sure as hell does not give a penalty. In the age of Jersey Shore and Justin Bieber, I think it's a bonus actually. 
I miss non-retractable spurs. Nothing quite says "stupid ganger" like non-retractable spurs. I also miss the Disregard spell. Disappeared after 2nd edition for being blatantly overpowered. Still, I liked it.
QUOTE (Beaumis @ Nov 17 2014, 01:59 PM)
Given the current hit lists, I'm beginning to think the world is in need of an errata because negative talent sure as hell does not give a penalty. In the age of Jersey Shore and Justin Bieber, I think it's a bonus actually.
I miss non-retractable spurs. Nothing quite says "stupid ganger" like non-retractable spurs. I also miss the Disregard spell. Disappeared after 2nd edition for being blatantly overpowered. Still, I liked it.
I miss non-retractable spurs. Nothing quite says "stupid ganger" like non-retractable spurs. I also miss the Disregard spell. Disappeared after 2nd edition for being blatantly overpowered. Still, I liked it.
You mean Alienation? Yeah, that was all kinds of silly. Have a spirit use it on you, and now you can't be touched.
Actually it was a somewhat less invasive version. Alienation kinda made it like you didn't exist, which had some nasty side-effects like line of fire. With disregard, you were still visible and detectable, people just didn't notice you. It was quite literally an "I WIN" button for mundane stealth (TN4, double successes as TN to be noticed with Intelligence) and an entire party covered with it was akin to invisibility cheat codes in video games. Unlike Alienation, it could be beat by astral perception, grounding, dispelling and all that stuff, so it was a bit less OP. A tiny bit.
Though, after looking up the spell in my old Awakenings, what I really miss the most is the "major mojo" kind of fluff they put in these books. Stuff like Hatchetman's Cybermancy which creates a narrative inside the world that persists through several sourcebooks just made the world seem so alive... .
Though, after looking up the spell in my old Awakenings, what I really miss the most is the "major mojo" kind of fluff they put in these books. Stuff like Hatchetman's Cybermancy which creates a narrative inside the world that persists through several sourcebooks just made the world seem so alive... .
Hatchetman is one of the best bits of fluff ever written for SR, because it outlines in stark first person just what it means to be a cyberzombie, and why even the craziest Street Sams walk the edge instead of going over.
So there's something I miss.
The feeling that augmentation was risking your very spirit for power, especially given the chances of Magic loss on terrible wounds.
So there's something I miss.
The feeling that augmentation was risking your very spirit for power, especially given the chances of Magic loss on terrible wounds.
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