In another thread, Redjack posted:

He asked to stay focused on the Matrix, so I thought it'd be best to open a new thread.

Now, everyone here knows I have big issues with Edge. That said, I'm asking everyone (including me!) to refrain from Edge-bashing. Let's try and avoid discussion as to why it's broken, and instead focus on solutions.

I've had two ideas to fix Edge. The first is that, instead of it giving you a scaling amount of dice, it only gives you a flat amount. So, if you spend Edge, you always gain, say, 6 dice. It doesn't matter if you have Edge 1 or 8, you get a flat 6 dice every time.

The second is trickier. A major problem people have with Edge is that it's easy to front load. So, I'd suggest lowering the starting max on it-- maybe down to 2, 3, if you're a human. From there; you can raise it just like any other attribute. The side effect here is that you'll need to refigure the Priority table, and reduce the Special/Race returns to reflect this.

I like both. And you wouldn't necessarily need to redo the special priority attributes, just allow those points to be spent on other stats. Or other stat singular. As in pick one and apply the rest/all the points. Overflow is lost as normal.

-Temperance

The trouble with restricting Edge is that it is the major mechanism making humans competitive. Attributes are huge, and humans are the only ones not getting bonus Attribute points. Personally, I don't think Edge is that broken in SR5. It is one of the areas they got right - it is like SR4 Edge, only with everything clarified and spelled out a lot better. If you are going to restrict Mr. Near-Lucky (7 Edge), then humans need to get something to compensate for it. Maybe, for example, you could rule that humans are the exception to the rule that you can only spend metatype points on Magic/Resonance or Edge, and they are allowed to add some of their special Attribute points to normal Attributes.

The main problem I have with Edge is that it's supposed to represent pushing yourself that little bit further to achieve super results, but in actual game play you get players who go bottom end Force 1 and blow Edge or use for other non-dramatic purposes, but that is a debate for a different thread as we are looking at alternative ideas here.


There is another option but not one that many would like.

Change Edge to an alternative to Magic/Resonance, so you either have Magic, Resonance or Edge and never shall any of the Trio meet.

The logic here is Edge is Raw potential that can reshape the world, if only briefly.

Those who focus this potential reshape it and become Mages or Technomancers, but at the cost of basic luck since they now make their own luck in a bit more proactive method so to speak.

So we would see something like this

Priority A---6 points
Priority B---5 Points
Priority C---4 points
Priority D---3 Points
Priority E---2 Points

So a player who uses the Mag/Res/Edg Column as his dump priority still has the basic 2 edge while if you really want to have that 6 Edge right out of the gate you have to pay via a High Priority or mid level priority and divert special points to top.
This would probably call for a slight rejuggling of the special points given for metatype as they are no longer splitting it between as many stats per character.

This is a massive change as it reshapes a good chunk of the game, especially for people who basically use builds built around EDG and a Special Stat since they would no longer be able to use Edg to blow limits or max out rolls the same for their special abilities.
But since reagents are a thing for magic, they would help cushion that blow a bit and maybe even create a need to rework reagents a bit to fill in the gap.

Not keen on the idea, but it has to be considered if only to think outside the usual box a bit.

Keep edge as is but add it before penalties to the dice pool not after - an agi 1 blind character should not be able to default on twin full bursts and still roll dice.

I disagree, but that wouldn't be a productive line here.

Instead, what do you think of everyone starting with Edge 2, except humans, who get Edge 3? Lucky would allow you to start with 3, 4 for humans. Then you could spend karma to raise it, which would allow humans a normal max of 7, 8 with Lucky.

The exponential aspect of Edge is the biggest problem in my opinion.

As a human with Luck you can have an Edge attribute of 8.
That means 8 times 8 dice per day.
Any crucial moment can me mastered like that,
and in addition all those sixes explode.

I like the suggestion of adding edge dice before modifiers.

My suggestion would be to nerf edge massively,
but refresh it more regularly, like every scene or so.

If you take the Karma rules from third edition for adding dice for example:
The first extra die costs one point of Edge, the second costs two, and so on...
Suddenly Edge gets depleted rather quickly, if this is the only way you use it in.

It is a fudge rule anyway, a relic from a different edition,
where dice pools were a common thing, and which got copied over to fourth edition.

Also, they added Limits, and then they make it so you can fudge around Limits.
I think that Edge can be dropped entirely, without the game loosing much.

Honestly, I see it the other way: the system is actually dependent on Edge, because it does so much.

However, you raise a good point. How about this suggestion: instead of Edge giving you everything, how about we separate it? So, when you spend a point of Edge, you can get 6 bonus dice, *or* you can have exploding 6's to start, *or* you can ignore the limit, either before or after the roll, etc, etc?

As a counterpoint to that, though, I'd allow players to spend multiple Edge per test, but only once of each. So, you couldn't reroll failures twice in a row.

@Cain:

I know it does so much, but my impression was always that the system works extremely well without it.
Edge should not be used to represent what gives the Shadowrunner an edge over his adversaries,
Attributes and Skills should, and careful planning, and Gear, and powerful friends, and the element of surprise.

I guess I just do not like the concept,
and I prefer to be reductionist with this kind of stuff.

Exploding Sixes could be implemented as standard,
like their equivalent is in nWoD.
What is also standard there is that the lowest number of dice you roll is 1,
even after modifiers. In combination this means that the blind sniper in the example above
would still have a chance of hitting, but a slim one.

Limits should actually Limit the players,
as it is now, you either are good at something, which means your Limit is already high enough,
or you are bad at it, which means your Limit is high enough.
Actually being severely handicapped by a Limit is a rare occurrence, so why make it an optional one too?

If it is kept however:
Six dice are quite a lot, but the rest seems reasonable.
Should the dice be added before or after modifiers?

If they are added after modifiers, why not just buy successes with Edge, instead of dice? Rolling more dice takes longer.

Here is what we use but we also have the number of success capped with skill rating so miles may vary
EDGE
Spending Edge
When you spend a point of Edge, you can choose to have one of the following happen:
• You may declare the use of Edge before rolling for any one test (or one interval roll on an Extended Test). You may add a number of extra dice equal to your full Edge attribute to the dice pool. All edge dice rolled on this test are subject to the Rule of Six, meaning that if you roll a 6, you count it as a hit and roll it again.
• You may re-roll all of the dice on a single test that did not register a 1, 5 or a 6.
• You may go first in the 1st round of Initiative, regardless of your Initiative Score. If multiple characters spend Edge to go first in the same pass, those characters go in order according to their Initiative Scores first, then everyone else goes according to their Initiative Scores.
A character can only spend Edge points on her own actions; she cannot spend it on behalf of others
• You may not spend edge on healing test, resist damage test, or drain tests.
• Rolling a critical glitch, automatically lose one point of edge. When bad luck happens your luck tends to get a lot worse.
Note: that you may never have more Edge points than your full Edge attribute.

Regaining Edge
one point of edge comes back every two weeks in game time. (336 hours after spenting that point of edge)
Starting players can not have Edge attribute higher then 3.
Humans do not get a free edge point. We use the old racism rules in our game and that's why.

I have flirted with something similar to this. Edge above 5 is really out of control, especially for a starting character. I have ran tables with edge 8 characters. The character become too much the focus, with too much success in things they really lacked the aptitude for. I do like edge and think it is the one thing that allows for the cinematic effect to allow the heroes to survive when the chips are really down, but edge 8 is just broken.

Edit: Though by the time you buy from 5 to 8 (30 + 35 + 40 = 145 karma) the karma expense would at least begin to start to feel justified.

The new priority system kind of relies on Norms having the easy possibility to take high Edge values though,
that would need rebalancing then. (namely moving the Meta-types up on the Priority scale a little)

Ummm... 105 Karma, Redjack.

Never post while multi-tasking... Never, never, NEVER.

For SR4 when reading up on Edge, to me it was the "devil's luck, last chance, pull your ass out of the fire" element. Like the guitar amp that goes up to '11,' you use it for that little bit of extra you need at the most crucial of moments. It was something special to the PCs and select few NPCs.

In SR5 it's more like Edge is as essential as any of the other eight attributes, something a player is more expected to use to perform routine tasks at exceptional levels. I'm all for one fine with taking a hit on Initiative to perform certain things out of sequence, but requiring Edge as well to perform certain things is silly. On top of that Edge is not special anymore. Yeah, sure, many of the grunts don't actually have an Edge attribute, but several anonymous henchmen do.

When everybody's special, nobody is.

Has a high Edge really had that powerful an effect on your games?

I've played such a character, and while once or twice he could have a really good dice roll, and survive the Drain, that was it. A canny player saving that powerful burst for the right moment could make a real difference, I admit.

You know, I tend to agree on that. In SR4A, I always saw it as something NICE, but not NECESSARY to accomplish goals. In SR5 it is increasingly obvious that you need to invest in it just like any other attribute, and the higher it is the better it is.

The trouble with starting everyone out with minimal Edge is that you have negated the points value for the metatype column - if those points can only be spent on Magic or Resonance, then only awakened characters or technomancers will really get any benefit from the points you get with metatype. Simpler to get rid of them. Then make all of the metatypes a higher Priority level. For example, trolls B (where they are now, basically - they have been nerfed enough), elves, orks and dwarves C, and humans E.

Keep in mind when discussing Edge and making house rules on it's use and application, that Edge DOES NOT refresh daily according to the Core SR5 rules. You only regain 1 Edge after a good nights rest or by doing something cool/dramatic. Be fair to your players when you house rule Edge, but also be firm when you believe they are clearly using an exploit in the system -- casting Force 1 direct combat spells and using edge is a good example of an exploit.

On a side note -- I'm someone that has a character with 8 Edge. When you do not have chrome or adept powers as a crutch, you need to have something to give you an edge (get it?).

Most of the times my players did not even use Edge.
I have to ask them why next time I see them.

I assume it was laziness, the Edge rules are another subsystem of the rules you have to keep in the back of your head.

Taking a character with 8 Edge seemed ridiculous to us, when we talked about it.

We don't refresh Edge daily but only between runs. Since each run takes 3-5 sessions on average, even high Edge characters need to think more about when to use it.

I like Edge as a mitigating factor for bad rolls. I also like Edge for adding an Initiative pass or going first (we play 4th still) as an idea, but admit that I can count on one hand the times that its been used that way. And we've certainly burned it to avoid character death!

I think that if you have a low refresh rate (per run) and get rid of Long Shot tests (or say that in a Long Shot you get to roll a set number of dice, say 3, that's independent of your Edge score) you'd get rid of a lot of the reasons why people object to it.

You should not forget the "history" of edge - the karma pool of previous editions tended to be a huge game changer after some sessions, especially if you played with several hundred of karma points and had a karma pool of 30+. But I cannot remember any large discussion about that in previous editions, so personally I am fine with edge doing great things. IMHO the karma pool / edge attribute is one of the defining pillars of the SR rule system (just like the D6 for example).

SYL

There actually was a lot of discussion about that. People complained that high-karma characters were impossible to challenge, because of high karma pools. Of course, as you pointed out, that was after a few hundred karma or so. Edge is open to any starting character, which is part of the problem.

Personally, I used the graduated karma pool rules: after you earned 5 karma pool, the costs started to go up. A little more bookkeeping, but still easy enough, and it definitely slowed down karma pool gain.

Anyway, I don't want to focus on the negatives of Edge. For this thread, let's just assume people are having problems, and start focusing on solutions. The scaling attribute cost of Edge theoretically makes a good limiter, except that you can front-load it. So, I think lowering the starting cap to 2 or 3 would help a lot. As Glyph said, it would require rewriting the Priority tables, but it might work. It won't be the most minimal fix, though.


Interesting idea, but what happens in Missions games? By those rules, you recover Edge and damage between every session-- and Missions is the only game in my area.

Also, I've noticed in SR4.5 games that slowing down the Edge refresh rate hurts low-Edge characters more. A well built Lucky character won't spend Edge faster than anyone else, they just have more in a pinch. So, as the game goes on, everyone else will be out of Edge, but the luckier guys will still have some left. With a low refresh rate, the low-Edge characters won't gain it back any faster, so the high-Edge ones still stay ahead.

I think limiting starting edge is the best option, Cain's suggestion of 2/3 vs. 3/4 seems reasonable. I'm also in favor of getting rid of special attribute points because they lead to some odd min/max corners -- no reason to take magic A or B if you're a human, for instance. This probably requires rejiggering the priority table. The easiest way to rejigger seems like disallowing any priority for a race higher than the lowest: you can start with human E, elf D, ork or dwarf C, or troll B. With special attributes removed, climbing higher in race priority represents getting dedicated attribute points at a slight discount.

This seems fine to me at first glance, but caveat emptor: I haven't tried optimizing on that table yet. I'm basing this intuition on the tremendous power of higher priority slots. Being able to dump slot E is very useful, giving up slot C hurts a lot.

The only unworkable corner case of that is the issue of the mundane human. Give him/her a bonus edge. That means a lucky, mundane human can start with an edge of 5: seems fine.

I'm not sure the easiest way to rejigger the table is the right one. At some point it's worth having a separate discussion -- possibly in another thread -- about racial priority since I think races are overpriced. In particular, I think looking at attribute totals is a dumb way to price races since strength and body are close to useless in this edition (because of shock gloves and high rating armor). If I were to reprice off the back of my hand, I'd suggest SR3 pricing: human E, dwarf/ork D, elf/troll C. I haven't backed that up with math yet, so it may be exploitable.

Well, yes, but you were never meant to actually get to hundreds of karma with standard scaling of 2-3 karma a run. So of course the system broke down a little at the 300 karma level.

I beg your pardon? Where do you get that from?

SYL

2-3 karma a run, one run a week (if we're talking highschoolers with nothing but time), 52 weeks a year means 2 full years to get 2-300 karma.

Beyond that, go dig out your copy of Street Legends and look at the stat block for guys like Serrin Shamander or Bull, who are runners who are supposed to have been active for decades at the time of print. They just aren't that big.

Ah, street legends has NPCs with way over 1000 Karma, for example Thorn. And old official adventures gave you more than 2-3 karma, somtimes giving 6-7 group karma and 1+ individual karma (like Harlequin for the YET run). And if you want to talk about decade old mortal runners, you should consider skill degredatation as well. And last but not least: karma as an advancement is for NPCs is quite problematic, because you get karma for out of game actions like humor etc. Something which cannot be applied to NPCs.

So it simply comes down to "can a character played long?" Yes. Does it break the system? No. Does it break the karma pool system? No, not with an experience gamemaster.

I played in a group with characters ranging from 300 to 1200 karma (and with the corresponding karma pool) and "cannot be challenged" was never an issue. Or to be honest: we needed the karma simply to survive. And no, the enemies were not dragons, cyberzombies or immortal elves, just very competent and cleverly played NPCs with a high, but still normal range of attributes, skills and equipment.

SYL

Yea the harlequin was a lot of karma but it was spread out over a long series. It also stated to play other missions inbetween chapters so it wasn't straight. How many times did you guys die in those epic missions Apple?
OK setting aside Legends that's a write up. So in the games you play NPC don't get karma, so your fixer or NPC crew mate what not no one gets Karma?

I've said it before ages ago, but basically you need to balance all the races around cost-effect and price them the same-ish so there's no real reason to pick one or another except for what the player wants.

The problem with nerfing human edge is it makes an already less-freebie race even worse. But i'm guessing you're talking about fifth so whatevers.

Edge is there as a factor for luck/crazy shit/mohawk moments/the kind of stuff that ends up on badass of the week's page front page. Like falling out of an airplane without a parachute and surviving.

What I think you want to do is make Edge into a situational-modifier mechanic for the entire scene. Those with higher edge limit how much it sways things (ie reduced by x points depending on what rating it is), those with lower edge suffer from poor lighting or situational plot elements worse, and roll a couple extra less dice or have limits impacted. Those with HIGH edge invert the situational modifiers into a bonus, and can ride the edge.

I'm imagining something like an Edge die which is dropped to set the tone for any given scene, faces with scaling +'s or -'s showing. Something akin to a fate fudge die, kind of.

BUt then you also have to re-examine what you get if you spend points. Hands of god, rerolls, limits, etc? What about that third edition positive quality where the unaugmented could use edge to determine initiative and sometimes get 2 or even 3 (rarely) actions based on grit alone?


In short, here's what I think:
A) You're blaming the shortcomings of fifth as a overarching whole on edge.
b) did you have this problem with edge in fourth, and what what was different?

Again: it was for ONE Mission in the Harlequin adventure (and that run was rather short with "go in, kill everything"). The total campaign karma was way higher.



Died? No one. Close to death, with way to many boxes over 10 marked off, burning karma/edge and sweating blood and tears as a players, with shivering hands when a grinning GM askes us for a roll? Way too often.



In our games we are a firm believer of "NPCs have the values and equipment they need for their role in the story and world, from squatters to dragons.

You know that would be a hell of a novelization of that particular arc if you ever wanted to write it up for the Novelization thread.

Make magic, resonance, ware and edge all take up points of essence so only unaugmented mundanes have the ability to max edge.

Actually you can read it online if you can read German and can forgive a rather ... young ... writing style.

Around 1000 pages in diary form.

SYL

Edge and essence are connected?

SYL

if it's on a webpage I am not afraid to shove Chrome/ google translate on it to do rough translation work so I can read the gist of it if you want to link it. (preferably in the Novelization thread to keep this thread on topic)

Magic and 'ware were originally connected to essence simply as a game balance mechanic and it was not so much of an in game stat anyways, so it's not so strange of an idea. It was only after people started asking for in game fluff reasons for the rule did essence gradually morph into the 'holistic' stat that seems to be the default now. Re-fluff it as a person's "potential" and how magic taps into it, 'ware drains it, and mundanes find it as an expression of luck and it works just as well as a balance mechanic. Overall balance might need some adjustments due to the changing assumptions and the priority tables would need to be adjusted, but it would establish a niche for the mundane detective trope if one wanted to go with that solution.

That makes a lot of sense to me.

Edge in SR5 is virtually identical to Edge in SR4. The two main differences are that a lot of the ambiguities got cleared up, and that it has the additional ability to bypass Limits (a new feature introduced in SR5).


This might be mechanically balanced, but I don't like the overall change in the game's tone it would create. Mundanes are supposed to view magic with awe, fear, or resentful jealousy, while constantly being tempted by the cheap and easy boosts offered by augmentations. It breaks that when unaugmented mundanes have special powers themselves.

It's not nerfing Edge so much as lowering it to a more sensible starting max. Since humans will start with +1 Edge under this proposal, they still get a huge benefit.



Not at all. Edge is overpowered as is, with the defined one-time benefits. Making it into an undefined, scene-long benefit would be insane.

If I read you right, someone with Edge 1 can, for one scene per game, reduce a bunch of penalties; while someone with Edge 6+ can convert those penalties into bonuses, six scenes per game. I don't know about you, but I seldom have more than a few really tense scenes per game. That means someone with a high Edge would basically *never* suffer from penalties during a critical scene.

There was nothing like that, partly because Edge did not exist in that system.

There was a edge (positive quality, you'd call it) that allowed unaugmented mundanes to use the Rule of 6 on initiative tests, but it had nothing to do with Karma Pool, IIRC. It was just that the higher your initiative roll, the more you went.

A) No. SR5 has many problems, but for this thread, I'd like to just focus on one issue: Edge. I don't want this thread to turn into a SR5 bash; let's just admit there are problems, Edge is one of them, and discuss ways to fix it, please.
B) Oh, yes. If anything, Edge has become even more powerful in 5e, since it does a lot more. That's why high Edge scores are even more problematical in my experience.

I like the lower starting value as a fix. It is simple enough, and if you wanna spend karma on edge later, you can have that.

Alternatively I like the idea of splitting up the benefits: Limitbreak/Dice/Explosion. Again, simple enough.

Only if all stats got the same cap (+ metatype adjustments).

Why?

You mean all humans should start at Str 2?

I see no connection there.

If you are saying raising edge too high at the beginning is too powerful I would point out that maximizing agility would also be too powerful which would lead you to a cap on all attributes.

If Edge fell under the Attributes Priority, I would agree.

The example works with magic just as well.

Magic has its own Priority as well, so it does not.

If Edge would be raised with points from the Magic Priority, I would again be inclined to agree.

That would generally not be a bad idea in my opinion,
as far as the priority table goes.

thats quite right, but in SR5 you can regain Edge much faster. a hearty Meal and a good nights sleep to get edge back is brand New trait in SR5
also there is a Tendency in SR5 to reward Players with getting Edge back instead of rewarding Karma Points
So even if mechanically Sr4A Edge and SR5 Edge are the same SR5 Chars have a Tendency to get more out of it

with nearly the same Dance
Medicineman

Seems like you blissfully forgot about those. Maybe because you were focused on calibers, inconsistent damage codes from the various firearms, armor bypassing and similar things. I do remember having lead quite a number of discussions on the question of dealing with "excessive" karma pools on the now defunct German Fanpro forum where we met for the first time.



It certainly is a quite prominent element in the rules. But not necessarily one which's removal or drastic alteration would immediately cause the game to have a completely different feel. There were other changes that were more drastic and the game still survived.

As far as a fix to the Edge attribute is concerned I do have this gut feeling that you'd already get a sufficiently well result if the limits on (net) successes weren't completely removed through Edge expenditure but rather the possible (net) successes just doubled instead. That would remove the cheesy factor on the low end and become virtually indistinguishable on the high end.

Note "or they may split these points as they see fit between their Edge and Magic or Resonance attribute ratings if the player so chooses."

And yes I do get your point about getting a starting magic level elsewhere but capping edge is a bad solution that only hurts mundanes a better one would be to add other options like a nuyen/point trade.