In keeping with the new theme of [+] vs [-], this is a spin off thread so we can leave the 'Ways to Fix Edge' on it's more constructive bent as there they are working on the supposition that Edge IS broken and needs a fix.

Here we are asking IS Edge broken and why we feel this way.

This should also help show by sharing each player's view of how they see Edge being applied for good or bad.


Edge is a great mechanic, as has been pointed out, it allows for dramatic effects and sometimes just bat shit crazy stunts.


But it drives me a little crazy when someone does a Force 1 spell and pops Edge to blow the limits to minmax a spell. To me it is cheesey as hell and we try to discourage that sort of stuff.

So in this example Edge itself isn't broken but how it can be applied may be a bit too open.

There are more points to bring up, but first I think we will open this up for others to chime in with and see how we all see Edge in all it's glory.

Well, it is the intended effect of drams and edge use. That´s not cheesy, thats the way developers have written the system. It is the explicit goal of this subsystem.

So no, I don´t thing that karma pools in previous editions and edge in SR45 is broken. For that i have played way too long SR and seen way too many gamemasters able to handle anything from 12 to 1200 karma (no typo here). If a almost trippe digit karma pool can be handled with normal ingame opposition and normal challenges (normal in the way that the normal rule and value ranges can be a challenge, not that you need to use dragons etc), and if a normal face adept with an edge of 7 or 8 can be handled, then it is anything but broken.

Can it be improved? Sure. Everything can be improved, but before I improve the edge rules I would rather improve a lot of other things there.

SYL

It is one of many problematic systems in SR5. Edge is too easy to get, and too overwhelmingly useful to have. It runs into the same reason Quickness was split up when going to 4e, because it was a god-stat that was a more valuable investment than the other available stats.

Actually quickness was not really that great, it was ok, but willpower and intelligence were more important. However quickness was very easy to increase through bioware.

SYL

And thus Intelligence was split up was well.

I cringe every time I see 'Int' on the sheets when it does not mean what I intuitively think it does... get it?

I think Edge is fine - it can be very powerful, but it is a finite resource, and even in SR5 (where it refreshes at set time intervals), the GM can make it more or less effective by controlling the pacing of the game. I think Edge actually improves gameplay - it makes it easier to keep players alive, giving them a boost when the dice really aren't rolling their way, or providing an emergency way to save a character's life.

While Edge itself is fine, the Priority table could definitely use some tweaking. Edge seems to be the primary way that they have balanced humans against the other metatypes, to the point that a mundane human as a minimum Edge of 5.

Well, if I compare the priority table to the third edition one:

What reason would I have to pick a mundane Human in third?
That would amount to picking Priority E twice.

That at least is somewhat balanced in fifth.

My issues with SR4.5 Edge are well documented, so I won't rehash those.

But in SR5, the problem is that Edge does *too much*. Spend one point of Edge, and you get bonus dice, *and* you get exploding 6's, potentially on the entire roll, *and* you can ignore limits. That's an awful lot of gain for one spend, and that doesn't even cover all the other uses you can get from Edge.

I've found Edge in SR4x to be very powerful, but very limited. Even with a PC who had lots of Edge, I learned to husband that resource carefully. It cost as much as any other attribute, but unlike other attributes it runs out.

Edge is very powerful. It slices, it dices, it even cooks. But as many before me has stated, it is a finite resource. Because it is so powerful, it is tempting to use it as much as you can, but you can't.

I think that the heart of the matter is not how powerful Edge is. Or how many times you can use it.

The real problem, I feel, is when it is used and who controls the use. When Edge is used at the critical moments, it can swing the outcome of a battle or even have an impact on subsequent games. Now if the GM isn't prepared for such an outcome, it can derail his game. On the other hand, if he has scaled the opposition to account for the use of Edge, then the PCs may find it tough going, especially if the GM had scaled up too much.

Character design. Also social stigma issues, as 3e was still very open about bigotry being a big part of the game world, what with Humans First! and Humanis still active. Not to mention Japan not considering metahumans to be people, and by extension the Japanacorps following suit.

Humans in SR3 also tended to come out ahead in some areas, since they took a lower slot on the priority table. In the case of Awakened characters, humans had a noticeable advantage in a number of cases, because they could put more high slots towards boosting their attributes and resources.

On top of that, humans gained karma pool much faster than metahumans. During a long campaign, that added up quickly.

It would not bother me if Edge were not a thing in Shadowrun. I mirror Bertramn's sentiment that Edge gets increasingly powerful the higher it is. Here are some shenanigans for character with 7 or 8 Edge, especially bad with certain other high attributes or skills (which seems somewhat doable).

You know how in DND you can sometimes do [Blah] x times per day/week/whatever? I say that's kind of lame. Well here we have it that you can do all sorts of things within the time frame it takes for Edge to refresh.

How about any defaultable skill in the game until the GM rules that you can't? She said, "Tell me are you a medic, child?" And I said, "Ma'am, I am tonight!" Knowledge skills? I'll wager it all on Final Jeopardy. Languages? Substituted skills? My favorite, one point in a non-defaultable skill.

I'll roll Summoning + Specialization + Magic + Focus + Edge for a spirit of a Force that the GM is fairly unhappy with. I may choose to either add Edge and exploding sixes, or I might have so many dice that rerolling failures and using reagents to raise my limit might be a better tactic.

Then I'll roll Binding + Specialization + Magic + Focus + Edge to bind it (maybe with Spirit Affinity for +1 die and +1 service).

Then I'll roll Spellcasting or Ritual Spellcasting (in which case + Teamwork) + Specialization + Magic + Mentor Spirit + Focus + Spirit Force (Aid Sorcery service) + Edge. Again, either adding Edge dice and exploding sixes or rerolling failures and spending reagents to raise the limit, to get a number of hits that the GM is fairly unhappy with.

If I can perform Quickening, I may even spend one point of karma to make it linger until the GM inevitably puts an end to it. It costs a lot of nuyen though. 500 x spirit Force just for the reagents to bind it.

I'm torn on what I'd do to "bring edge in line." But the exponential-ness of its potential is really the problem. Getting +1 dot gives you not only an extra die, but also an extra use, so the "total" benefit ends up being quadratic. 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64

I just don't know if I'd make it "fixed number of uses" or "fixed number of dice" in order to rein it in.

Using the mechanic third edition used for the Karma pool could work.

1st die costs 1 Edge, 2nd die costs 2 Edge (3 total), 3rd die costs 3 Edge (6 total), and so on.
It really does not lend itself to a pool as low as the Edge pool though.

Making every extra die cost one point of Edge though could work.
If you want 5 dice, you have to pay 5 Edge for example.

Why have it at all at that point?

Personally, I'd go with fixed number of dice. SR4-onward is too dependent on multiple uses of Edge, you'd need some reward for having a higher stat.