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Bertramn
I recently watched the Anime Psycho Pass.
Taking the basic idea behind Minority Report,
it builds a P.K.Dick-ian scenario in a world with a lot of Cyberpunk elements.
The story takes place in a world where not pre-crime, but potential of criminal behavior is punishable,
and might be punishable by death.

What I wanted to discuss,
is whether the Hologram technology which is portrayed in the series,
is a more beneficial/more realistic choice, for use by and for the public.

In the series, the Virtual Reality exists, in a similar cyberspace way as in Shadowrun,
but AR is virtually non-existant, with a few exceptions,
or at least it is not shown more than these exceptions.

One of these few exceptions is the smart-gun the police use (the Dominator),
projecting information on the targets onto the policemens retinas.
(Exhibit A; Exhibit B)

Aside from that, most situations where in post 4th edition Shadowrun,
AR is used, you see Holograms.
The city deploys Drones, which can project Holograms across a street, to mark is as closed,
or which can take the form of cutesey Avatars, while making Public Service Announcements.
People have the option to dress in a neutral way, and project a different wardrobe on top of it.
The same can be done with their living-spaces, which look very plain usually, but which are enhanced to look baroque, or fancy modern, with Holographic projections.
Also the policemen can too project on top of themselves the Avatars the drones use.

Also Holograms can be used in a similar way AR can, and the Google Glasses were supposed to be,
by projecting upon the wrist of the wearer windows to interact with, and to get information from.

A Hologram in human form is possible, though Holograms that could be mistaken for real-life humans require extreme skill,
and an excessive amount of work.
___________________

I definetly see this as superior choice to AR for public use,
because it does not require everybody to have access to both your AR feed,
and AR in general.

A PSA in AR is useless to people without their goggles on,
so it might prove impotent in preventing mass panics and the like.
Projecting clothing upon yourself, or projecting a nice interior upon the walls of your home in AR,
only works if you have your goggles on, and even then you might not see it RAW.

Also I always hated having to describe to the players the location itself,
and then having to describe it with AR included, for those that use AR atm.
With Holograms one explanation suffices.

Whether or not a Hologram can be made to look as realistic as life,
and whether or not it is possible without a stationary energy source is not part of this discussion.
Let us just assume a yes on both fronts.
Mach_Ten
I think the technology has been prolific enough in most of the sources you quote for the "masses" to take advantage of AR tech
and not need the other way around .. so they would not go out and run masses of AR servers on the chance someone might use it.

in a pristine environment i.e. one that does not have the existing infratructure, dedicated projectors and hologram equipment needs to be provided to be of any use in a PSA style MO.

So, it really boils down to the amount of tech that you have out there ..

Take the internet & Facebook as an example,
the web was not designed for the purpose we use it for now, ... but seeing as it is there to provide the framework for many modern day applications
Facebook takes advantage of it ...

if the internet did not exist first Facebook would look a whole lot different (maybe some dodgy teletext TV page?) or not exist at all.

And the other thing is ... Shadowrun and other cyberpunk genres have a Class based populace .. those "with" and those "without"

beautifully crafted and personalised AR for the Riche, and then barely working and old technology made by the cheapest bidder holograms for the SINless.

it's possible to have them both.
Bertramn
Hm, it might be that I am not a native speaker, but I do not understand what you are saying in the first paragraph.
No offense is intended, could you clarify?

On the infrastructure point, I think you provide the answer yourself.
Your Internet/Facebook example fits, only in this case it is Drones/Holograms.
The Infrastructure is already available to display large-scale PSAs and advertisemens, and roadblocks and such, by using drones.
The authorities already employ drones on a large scale, for surveillance, and to check the SINs of the citizens.

The class system point is an interesting one though.

Pertaining to the clothing aspect, I would argue that, if both existed, AR would be for the poorest and the richest, while Holograms would be used by the wageslaves.

Why would the richest do their posing with Holograms? They have no ugly clothes to hide.
On the contrary, they would want to brag about their real leather and silk clothing instead of hiding them under a hologram,
while also taking on an air of creativity by showing elaborate AR.

The poorest might fiddle with AR because they can not afford a holo-projector,
but everybody can see that the king is not wearing any clothing, so to speak.

Wageslaves would prefer Holograms in my opinion, because they enable you to look fairly professional/well-dressed,
without needing to spend more than a token amount on clothes.
The ease of use is a big point here.

That aside, I like the idea of the corporate drones all looking dull, grey and lifeless under the facade of their corporate identity,
while style is for the rich and the desperate.

Them existing in parallel makes a lot of sense, I agree.
Both are Augmented Reality basically, only Holograms are visible for everyone,
while AR can be visible solely to the individual, as it is by default in my understanding of the fluff.
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 6 2015, 04:33 PM) *
Hm, it might be that I am not a native speaker, but I do not understand what you are saying in the first paragraph.
No offense is intended, could you clarify?

no problem,

I mean that in most of the films, games and other media ...

the technology is already in place for AR to be much easier to implement than to have to resort to holograms.

contact lenses and glasses ... even implants and replacement eyes that all have the capacity to overlay AR data.
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 6 2015, 04:33 PM) *
Pertaining to the clothing aspect, I would argue that, if both existed, AR would be for the poorest and the richest, while Holograms would be used by the wageslaves.

Why would the richest do their posing with Holograms? They have no ugly clothes to hide.
On the contrary, they would want to brag about their real leather and silk clothing instead of hiding them under a hologram,
while also taking on an air of creativity by showing elaborate AR.

Simple answer that is abound in all the books, SOTA!

why go for REAL fur, when you can have clothing that switches with your mood, obviously everyones tastes differs but that is the crux of it ...
Humans favour tech and gadgets over real things.

and just imagine, you are being driven down the road and AR is showing a gleaming clean and positive outlook on life ...

BUT for those without AR ... it is the dirty grey plascrete jungle of graffiti and dirt and homelessness and enforced holograms etc..

it's all in the perception, not in the reality.
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 6 2015, 04:33 PM) *
On the infrastructure point, I think you provide the answer yourself.
Your Internet/Facebook example fits, only in this case it is Drones/Holograms.
The Infrastructure is already available to display large-scale PSAs and advertisements, and roadblocks and such, by using drones.
The authorities already employ drones on a large scale, for surveillance, and to check the SINs of the citizens.

The class system point is an interesting one though.

MY personal choice would be a mix of both, enforced mainly as a means to keep the SINless controlled, keep the proletariat downtrodden!
remind them everyday of the things they cannot achieve.
Siygess
If wageslaves were wearing clothes that could have holograms beamed onto them you know exactly what would be placed on them...... product placement for the corp that owns 'em!
Bertramn
QUOTE (Mach_Ten @ Jan 6 2015, 05:50 PM) *
why go for REAL fur, when you can have clothing that switches with your mood, obviously everyones tastes differs but that is the crux of it ...
Humans favour tech and gadgets over real things.

and just imagine, you are being driven down the road and AR is showing a gleaming clean and positive outlook on life ...

BUT for those without AR ... it is the dirty grey plascrete jungle of graffiti and dirt and homelessness and enforced holograms etc..

it's all in the perception, not in the reality.

MY personal choice would be a mix of both, enforced mainly as a means to keep the SINless controlled, keep the proletariat downtrodden!
remind them everyday of the things they cannot achieve.


Well, you go for the real leather because it is expensive as all hell, and you want to show that you can afford it of course. biggrin.gif
At least in high society that is, though definitely not everyone there.
My point was that High Society folk would not use Holograms as much, because those would hide their clothes from sight,
which kind of expensive clothing they wear is of no concern there.
Maybe though they are nekkid underneath, you never know with those rich folk... check your Johnson's Johnson just to be sure!

Rich people should not have to see the dirt anyway, the way I remember Downtown Seattle being described in Runner Havens,
it is looking pretty clean.

I would like the mix of both best as well by the way. Shadowrun does not have Holos though I think. Although I remember a portable Holo-projector in the fourth Edition Core Gear.

A question I have:
I always assumed that an AR overlay is at any and all times immediately recognizable as an overlay, because it is partly see-through.
In that case it would be impotent in hiding the real look of the city.
Also, what is visible to everyone in AR, by RAW?
If, for example, a PSA is projected within my vicinity, do I always see it? Do i have to be in range of the RFID that is projecting it? Is it just in the matrix?
If people are in the AR, are they always assumed to be, for example, on the Seattle City Grid? Would a PSA be projected on the City Grid as well as the 10 global grids?
Do I have to see everything anybody projects on their own body in AR, by RAW? Or do I, by default, not see such stuff?
SpellBinder
Attitude did introduce the holo-wear with gloves, a hood, and some clothing, but did stress the lack of realism of trying to do certain things with holograms (an Intuition + Perception [2] test revealed it was a hologram). There are other hardware options as well, with an at best Intuition + Perception (3) test to realize that it's a hologram. Of course there are other ways to tell a hologram is a hologram without any test (radar, astral, etc.).

As for AROs, based on a bit of fiction I recall from one of the books (a character mentally remarks about a hotel receptionist using a physical keyboard rather than using an invisible AR object) I've always written and described AROs as being set with a kind of permissions, where only you see your personal AROs. You can share an ARO with just your friends for privacy from everyone else, or have an ARO that the world can see (provided you've got the glasses, etc.). Then there's also the ARO spam that is mentioned more than once in the books, so you've got filters in your commlink's OS that can keep you from seeing AROs you don't want to (ref SR4, page 35, "Life On The Edge" for a nice example). I don't believe RAW actually covers this at all.
Shaidar
However, an ARO Public Service Announcement might behave like an Amber Alert Text and override a commlink's filters, with some types being anchored to an area for use with Gas Leaks and the like. Some safety systems might also use an AR system, possibly Fire/High-Temperature or Electrical/High-Voltage warnings, in addition to the type of physical warning signs that we use today.
ProfGast
The ability to universally project holographic displays *is* better than AR but it's more of a hardware issue than anything else. It's easier, in today's day and age, to issue viewers of 3D films cheap disposable glasses that allow viewers to perceive stereoscopic displays as 3-D, than outfitting all movie theaters with the technology to display 3-D Graphics. AR allows you to use existing infrastructure (wireless networks) and from a consumer perspective is also much more profitable than holographic tech (more buyers, cheaper production costs).

Additionally holograms are a lot more intrusive than AR since AR can implement user-side filters, while holographic projections force viewers to see them whether they want to or not. This would likely require severe laws to limit over-saturation of holograms as well as cause inherent "light pollution" problems as well.

All in all I believe the AR-solution is overall more elegant, especially in an information-rich society.

If you want to check an anime that has ubiquitous AR, check out "Dennou Coil". It's not Shadowrun by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a fun whimsical showing of how an AR immersed society can be.
Ixal
AR is actually far superior to holograms.
Holograms are useful when everyone should see the same thing like with traffic signs or clothing, but the advantages of having personalized content only the receiver can see are huge. Unless the number of AR people is very low every company would prefer personalized AR sdvertisment over holograms (but would in the end use both) and many applications would be impossible with holograms like navigation aids. And why look at your wrist for an holographic display when you can have the same information be projected into your field of view?

As advanced as holograms are, they are in the end no different than signs and loudspeakers. But AR allows applications which are otherwise impossible to do.
Shaidar
Also, FYI 3D displays have been available without the glasses since before 2050. Shdowrun calls it Trideo, as in Three Dimensional Video, which is the standard TV broadcast format and comes standard with the entertainment console available in most Low or better Lifestyles.
Bertramn
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Jan 12 2015, 07:26 AM) *
Also, FYI 3D displays have been available without the glasses since before 2050. Shdowrun calls it Trideo, as in Three Dimensional Video, which is the standard TV broadcast format and comes standard with the entertainment console available in most Low or better Lifestyles.


Damn you are right, I never knew what trid actually meant, it never occured to me based on the setting details in the core books.

Something I wanted to ask:
How likely is your average Joe on the street to be experiencing AR input at any given time?
Also:
If they are not wearing glasses or goggles, they are cybered up a little for input, aren't they?
Does that mean that everybody you see on the street who does not wear glasses
has cybereyes?
Or does the DNI of a datajack allow for AR input? That would be cyber too though.
Shaidar
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 12 2015, 12:23 AM) *
How likely is your average Joe on the street to be experiencing AR input at any given time?


Well, looking at the buy-in cost of devices able to view AR:

Bargain basement Commlink Meta Link (100 nuyen)

Plus one of the below:
Glasses (100 nuyen) with Image link (25 nuyen) total 125 nuyen
Contacts (200 nuyen) with Image link (25 nuyen) total 225 nuyen

Lowest cost being 225 nuyen

Personally, I'd say that every SINner is going to be able to perceive AR.
ProfGast
AR should be accessible by any DNI, and can have immersive AR with a sim module. Trodes are the no-surgery-required way to obtain DNI, though anyone who was deeply involved in the Matrix community prior to 2064 likely has a datajack.

And I'd say that since 2070 or so, anyone who owns a commlink should have regular access to AR information.
SpellBinder
That's very bargain basement. You're using your commlink's touchpad (or other controls) to interact with AROs at that level. Need to buy a pair of AR gloves, AR wristband, or a sim module (the magic item that translates wetware signals to software code) to do more than just see AR.

The sim module is the most likely one to get, as with that you can experience everything that AR has to offer (sight, sound, touch, and even taste and smell) and even virtual reality. Heck, with a sim module you can pitch the contacts/glasses.
Bertramn
Well yeah, everybody should be able to, I agree.
The matrix is very accessible after all.

My question was though, how likely someone is to be using AR at any given moment.
If you walk down the street, and you go by 20 people, how many of them are seeing AR right then and there?
What if none of them wear glasses or hats or gloves?
Does that mean they are cybered up, that their equipment is in their pockets, or that they do not use AR?
Which is more likely?
Shaidar
My take would be that if you can't see the gear they might be using Contacts or have gone the extra nuyen and are using a sim module with a set of Trodes, which by 2070 are easily concealed in your hairdo or under a hat or hoodie.
Bogert
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 13 2015, 03:45 AM) *
My question was though, how likely someone is to be using AR at any given moment.

Considering how many people already walk around awkwardly holding their phone up, texting or whatever, I'd guess the answer is basically everyone. What, are you going to stop and pull your commlink out of your pocket every time someone calls or texts you? Or if you want to check the time? Or get directions?

On the broader question, I'd think holograms are going to be much more energy expensive. AR is much cheaper and easier.
Bertramn
QUOTE (Bogert @ Jan 13 2015, 05:56 PM) *
Considering how many people already walk around awkwardly holding their phone up, texting or whatever, I'd guess the answer is basically everyone. What, are you going to stop and pull your commlink out of your pocket every time someone calls or texts you? Or if you want to check the time? Or get directions?

On the broader question, I'd think holograms are going to be much more energy expensive. AR is much cheaper and easier.


Fair point on the convenience.

The energy costs are not that important though, in a setting where it is not expressively stated how Cyberlimbs are powered.
At least it has not been mentioned anywhere I remember it, maybe in 2nd/3rd Edition stuff it has.
______

Should I assume all my players are perceiving AR, if they do not state the opposite?
Bogert
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 14 2015, 08:58 AM) *
Should I assume all my players are perceiving AR, if they do not state the opposite?

I would. It's built into the fabric of the world in a way that can be hard for us to instinctively understand.

Brainstorming some plausible outcomes:
People probably don't put price stickers on things anymore. Changing those is a big hassle for retail businesses, but it's really easy to update an entry in the store's pricing database. Look at an object, see its price as an ARO.

Restaurants don't print menus. Prices and availability change too often, and the things are hard to keep clean and neat. Just open up the menu ARO when you walk in, or when you're standing outside trying to decide whether you want to go in.

Cities stopped putting up and maintaining street signs a while ago. Same thing with signs, maps, and timetables in transit stations. In some places, the physical stoplights don't work anymore.

Don't expect physical signs warning you of a detour or construction. If they're too close to fancy neighborhoods, emergency services don't use physical sirens, and they keep their flashing lights tastefully restrained.
Sendaz
If I recall, somewhere was a piece about how you don't have produce necessarily on shelves of a supermarket. Either you go completely online and order or if you are physically there you would see all the various produce as AR displays and you just select as you browse around, filling your virtual cart. They would then pick the items from the stockroom in back and have it ready for you at the checkout up front. Imagine it saves a ton on loss prevention as you won't have people eating items on the floor and not paying for them.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 14 2015, 07:58 AM) *
Should I assume all my players are perceiving AR, if they do not state the opposite?

As long as they've got the gear for it, i.e. contacts with image links, earbuds, and/or a sim module in their commlink with a DNI.

I had one player who's character was a magician with the Simsense Vertigo NQ, and intentionally had nothing that would let him perceive AR in any way. Was quite interesting when he accidentally crossed into an area that was marked off by AR police crime tape and got accosted by a few KE officers.

But I wouldn't assume that everything is going to be through AR. I can see where traffic lights, road signs, and the 'blues & twos' are still going to be around and maintained even in the late 2070's. Why? Validating a bloated budget. There are things that local governments do in order to avoid budget cuts, including stupid things just to spend money they don't have to just to ensure that they'll have it in next year's budget. And check out the concept art for the Honda 3240 Turbo and the DocWagon SRT (both in Arsenal); the first has the traditional light bar across the top, and the second appears to have numerous lights around it as well. Even a spirit of man is described as possibly looking like a road sign (SM, page 97), so those must be plentiful enough for the association.

Now sure, the RFID anti-theft tag in that shirt may also be the only way to get its price, trideo screens may be a fading relic of the past, mid class and lower restaurants may only have AROs for menus (don't expect the upper crust to give up any of their luxuries), but there's still going to be the old tried and true physical things that still exist if you know where to look for them. Sure, road crews could use AROs to mark their detours, but all it takes is one conspiracy nut to have his wireless turned off on everything (including vehicle) to drive right on through at speed and have a wreck for those old signs to be brought back to use.
Bogert
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jan 14 2015, 03:04 PM) *
I can see where traffic lights, road signs, and the 'blues & twos' are still going to be around and maintained even in the late 2070's. Why? Validating a bloated budget. There are things that local governments do in order to avoid budget cuts, including stupid things just to spend money they don't have to just to ensure that they'll have it in next year's budget.

Well, there are a couple different ways you can think about it. Sure, Shadowrun governments are corrupt, so they waste money, and maybe the easiest way to waste money is through maintaining status quo spending in areas which are no longer necessary.

On the other hand, Shadowrun governments are poor, because extraterritoriality and repeated near-apocalyptic disasters have eviscerated their tax base. So, maybe they've tried to cut back in every way that they can, which might mean a widespread shift to AR wherever possible. (Ideally, they steered the contracts for the AR changeover to favored cronies in return for big kickbacks)
nezumi
AR is more realistic all the way. It all comes down to positions of the projectors.

For holograms, you need multiple projectors positioned approximately perpendicular to each other. Ideally, the projectors are fixed, since movement causes blurring. There is a long distance between the projector and the image, and the image is limited to the field of view of the projector (which may not coincide with the field of view of the viewer). Because of the size of the image, holograms take a fair bit of power to run. Holograms have limited ability to be customized for a personalized viewer experience. This would include things such as maximally effective support for blind people (although there are of course work-arounds). Due to the longer distance between projector and image, and the size of the whole thing, holograms are extremely vulnerable to weather and environmental conditions. The solution to this is to put it in a box of some sort, but then your hologram is trapped in a box. Their primary advantage is they don't require the viewer own specialized hardware, and they don't permit the viewer to tamper with or disable the image.

AR overlay needs one projector, positioned on the viewer's glasses, image-shifting lenses, or a DNI. They are mobile, as they are riding on the viewer. They have relatively little power draw. They are resistant to weather and environmental conditions, due to the very short distance between projector, image, and viewer. They always follow the viewer's field of vision, although they are limited in scale to the size of the screen. Because the equipment is purchased and possibly customized by the viewer, it is more likely to support alternate data presentations for people with special needs. The downsides are, the viewer controls the hardware and software, and so knowledgeable or empowered viewers may alter or hide your image; the viewer must own (and be using) specialized hardware; as the hardware is mobile, it may suffer from battery limitations.

There may be additional things to consider, as both technologies are still in their infancy IRL, but with what I can see from here, AR is a far better choice.
Shaidar
I was flipping through my SR4a book and there is a Holoprojector in Electronics fo only 200 nuyen.
SpellBinder
Substantially cheaper than the holo-wear in Attitude, with the hood being the cheapest at 475, and apparently it's good enough to mess with facial recognition if you can't figure out you're looking at a hologram in the first place. The fluff mentions cops sometimes accosting people wearing a holo hood in high security areas because said hood messes with video surveillance.
Sengir
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 7 2015, 09:29 AM) *
Also, what is visible to everyone in AR, by RAW?
If, for example, a PSA is projected within my vicinity, do I always see it? Do i have to be in range of the RFID that is projecting it? Is it just in the matrix?
If people are in the AR, are they always assumed to be, for example, on the Seattle City Grid? Would a PSA be projected on the City Grid as well as the 10 global grids?
Do I have to see everything anybody projects on their own body in AR, by RAW? Or do I, by default, not see such stuff?

The relationship between AR and VR has never been explained in a meaningful way, but my take is to treat AR as being separate from the matrix: AR is created by simple broadcast emitters talking to recipients within range, nothing is transmitted over the matrix. Of course you can also do private broadcasts within you PAN, so the email your commlink is displaying on your AR glasses is not visible to others.

The big advantage I see in public AR broadcasts would be that everybody in range gets the same crisp image (plus sound, or even more drastic cues), independently of how bad visibility is and how much stuff sits between you and the source. As Ixal said, a hologram isn't much different from a simple 2D sign.
Another advantage is that the display at the recipient's side can be "smart" -- AROs can carry an official signature to be treated differently than those without, they can be tagged as only relevant for pedestrians, a road sign can be visible from different distances depending on the current speed...
Orffen
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 7 2015, 01:36 AM) *
Also I always hated having to describe to the players the location itself,
and then having to describe it with AR included, for those that use AR atm.
With Holograms one explanation suffices.


You could always just describe it once with AR embellishments - those not using AR can disregard that:

"The rain has finally let up, though quite a few in the crowds outside Dante's still have their umbrellas up. The wageslaves with their cheap corp-issued ones blaze out neon logos, but luckily your spam filters eliminate the barrage of AROs advertising their latest products. Dante's facade is the gates of hell itself, neon and LED lights setting the maw on fire, and the AR flames are so well done that you're surprised there's no heat coming off them. As you gaze longingly at the empty VIP line through your AR goggles you see the ghostly personas of matrix visitors materialise from the air, flash their ID at the bouncer who gives a cursory look, and then disappear down the hallway."
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