I have never seen a game where there was anywhere near unlimited money, nor have I ever seen a character plan his future based on that.

That's what I think too.

Death to Cybered Physads with no costs other than "I gotta be wearin' my favorite pair o' undies!"

Well, in SR4 it gets a bit complicated with essence. considering the 1/2 essence of teh lesser of two types.

Lets say i have more bioware than cyberware. this changes the relative cost of bio to cyber in an optimum build. so do i want to get alpha wired 1 for 0.8 essence, or synaptic 1 for .5? wired 2 for 1.2 essence, or synaptic 2 for 1? at this point, the cost difference is not as great, 0.3 essence more or 0.2 essence more, for a large cost savings. So by spending 0.2 more essence, you save 96,000

all ware was made a LOT cheaper from SR3 to SR4, for the purpose of improving game balance- it lets the system put more of a limit on starting cash without screwing over the sam vs adept balance. you can start with only 25% as much money as in SR3, but in exchange implants are cheaper. OTOH, guns, armor, lifestyle, and vehicles now take up a larger percentage of your money to get because they didnt drop in price. The change fixed a few problems SR3 had where you could exploit the rules with priority A cash.

If a specific peice of ware is too cheap? consider the entire problem. cyber will show up on MAD and cyberscanners, and the more ware you have the easier it is to detect. alpha grade increases the threshold, but most sams are going to ping every time they pass any scanner with a halfway decent rating. a lot of the good upgrades have lagality issues- and that means your SIN and liscence are being checked. you can only start with rating 4, and what happens to you if that SIN fails a single one of several checks? hope you live long enough to buy a new one.

Overall, you want to get bioware when you can, and cyber when you must. consider that wired reflexes are a part of many character concepts. some people will simply take the cheaper option availible to them (like boosted in SR3).

um I hate to break this to you but live isn't fair and neither is shadow run

Goddammit, why didn't they make EX-EX ammunition fair? I mean, I realize it's 5x as expensive as regular ammunition, but it's so much better, it's unbelievable! +2 DV, -2 AP, who would ever want to stick regular ammo in their gun? Sure, you may be spending 10 bucks every time you pull the trigger, and it might be a lot harder to get, but magazine capacity is limited, money is not!

Waitaminute!
I thought they took out my beloved Shamans from 4th ed...now you're saying they're still in but at half the Magic rating?!?
Wha?

Isn't discussing Wired Reflexes 3 for new PCs kinda moot?

The listed Availability is 20R so new characters don't have access to it without the GM saying, "Ya, sure, you betcha. We're not adhering to the stock character creation rules. Have a blast, load up on the old tech!", right?

I figured it was listed for legacy's/conversion's sake. No?

In the balance between Cyber/Bio, the factor of the tech required to stick it in and store it has to be factored in. Wired is old, expensive and ineffecient (not unlike building a computer with SD RAM); none of the cutting edge or high rollers will touch it.

Conversly its all over the damn place. I can see the back of chop-shops with piles of 'that garbage'. This is of-course an exageration (what with the Avail. 20 and all), but this stuff didn't just dissapear. If it went somewhere why not have it flow into the lower rungs (cutting edge picks up the new computer, the masses start getting the old 'new' computer, ect)?

That's assuming that wired reflexes can be taken out. If it can't (and I can't imagine it would be) then supply would be dwindling, increasing the availability index.

Each cyberware item, including WR III, and each grade cyberware grade, Normal though Delta, does have a use. It kinda sucks that not every item of the matrix of cyberware versus grade is as useful as the next when compared to bioware. But such is sometimes the result of having open ended rules for the combinations.

Of course it isn't all around as nearly as bad a situation as your squealing makes it out to be.

Well, I don't want hackers and faces running around at sam speeds, whatever the costefficiency is, and I don't want everyone to go "I'll just drop 2 points of agi and get muscle toner instead, much cheaper".

I'm probably going to go with these house rules

To move at wired speeds without damaging tendons, ligaments and muscles you need to be in excellent shape.

+1 IP needs all physical attributes at 3
+2 IP needs all physical attributes at 4
+3 IP needs all physical attributes at 5

Add metahuman modifiers to that - if you're a weak troll you might still have high strength, but with the mass you're shifting you'll still pull yourself apart moving at wired speeds.

Augmented stats doesn't count - augmentations stress the body too.

If you do turn on your flexes and don't meet the requirement, every combat turn make a test with the number of attribute points missing, apply the hits as physical damage.

Augmentations stress the body - you need the following natural attribute to be able to boost it safely (or perhaps it just won't have any effect, if you really can't talk to women without twitching then stuffing pheromones up their nose just won't help):
+1 - minimum natural attribute of 4
+2/+3 - minimum natural attribute of 5
+4 - minimum natural attribute of 6

Again, metahuman modifiers apply.

No starting character in my group had all physical attributes on a 4. You are seriously nerfing streetsams with that houserule.

And a stupid question: Are additional IPs increasing movement speed in another way than allowing additional athletics tests? I thought not...

If you don't have 4 in all physical attributes, you're not a fullyfledged street sam imo, and so moving at 3 IPs constantly shouldn't be an option. They can still get flexes 2, but just run it at 1 unless it gets really hot - if they're just 1 point short, they'll take on average a box of injury every 3 turns, that's not too hard to live with. Think of it as overcasting.

About the movement, I said move more, not move longer. Movement distance in an urban environment with a lot of cover doesn't give much tactical advantage except for fleeing/pursuit. But with more IPs you can move into a flanking position and take out the enemy. When an enemy with multiple IP moves to flank, the sam can move into cover or intercept. Sams can move out of the way of grenades. Even if you can't move further, the ability to move more, to move in IPs were you opponent can't move (or keep up with enemies with multiple IPs) is a huge tactical advantage.

@The Jopp: I think that's the commonly accepted interpretation.

@Smokeskin: The SR4 character generation system gives just enough (200) points to have all four physical attributes on 4 and the mental attributes on the average 3. That's why nearly no fighter character has all physical attributes on an unaugmented 4.

@Jobb: The rules don't suggest that you're not actually moving faster. Extra sprint actions is one thing. Another example is that you can drop prone, stand up, and throw weapon each IP. Someone who can do that 3 times when normal humans get to do it once is imo clearly moving a lot faster, that can't be done just with a lower reaction time. I think it makes a lot more sense that wired flexes actually makes you move faster.

@Oracle: What you're saying is that if you want to have all mental attributes on an average 3 and one of them or more above that, you can't also get enough physical attributes to go at IP3 with my house rule. That's exactly my point - if you're building a char with above average mental attributes (in fact you're getting very near to an even spread between physical and mental attributes) you're not building a dedicated combat char and imo they should be going at IP2 speeds then.

Having run some SR4 for a high powered party we converted over. the street sam type has wireds at 3 for the simple reason he can switch them off. The essence cost and the cost in cash was worth him not shooting his friends.

As a side note I've house ruled wireds in my game to cost 1.5 essence and 15000¥ per level.

I would prefer other solutions - that the other chars had something sensible to spend their Essence on for example. Or that WR2 was expensive like pre-SR4 so they wouldn't be tempted to pick it. Or that you didn't have a points build system where you got a lot more for your BP by getting muscle toner instead of combat skills.

I don't want to see the mage being the only one without muscle toner 2 and WR2. Take any sample char in the book, and move some BPs from combat skills into WR2 and muscle toner 2 and tell me that you're not getting a char with more survivalibity. That leaves us with 3 options for non-combat non-awakened chars:

1) gimped with combat skills instead of cyber (punishing them for proper role-playing decisions)
2) with WR2 and muscle toner 2 like all other chars
3) no combat skills at all (that's the only reason not go cyber)

I just think that is either unfair or boring. I want variety and fairness.

Having run several games of SR4, most combat characters do indeed get muscle toner up, but hey thats because it does something to enhance what they do, as for wired 2 many characters are starting with it but far from everyone, it all comes down to hoe subtle the character is aiming for, the stealth bunnies all pay out for synaptics 1. I see no problem with people having similar packages of ware it's better than having many ways of increasing IP a cyber way and a bio way is enough. It's damn good system wise to have extra IPs so most people want them. If you want people to do something different with ware maybe you should shift the emphasis of the game away from fights? Or sadly wait for Augmentation.

Augmentations will hopefully add more cyber/bio that grants additional IPs. As long as the book isn't out, one has to live with the fact that most chars will have wired reflexes. Getting more IPs is very important and the only possibility for a mundane chars is via cyber/bio, so no wonder that everyone is aiming for the same pieces of 'ware.

Wired reflexes is not to cheap. It is old tech. It is common tech. It is tech that every other wageslave should have.

Possibly not every other wageslave. But at least every mundane person expecting to be involved in more fighting than a simple bar brawl.

One man's combat cyberware is another man's productivity enhancer. Imagine how much quicker you could straighten paperclips and stab pencils into the ceiling.

I would actually like to see a lot of ware to boost non-combat chars at their non-combat abilities, so they'll think twice about spending 3 essence on WR2.

That's what alpha, beta and delta grades are for Or waiting for Augmentations, but that can take quite a while...

I always liked the tech curve of reaction enhancers in SR. My first character in SR 1st ED had WR 2, and he would still be using them today if he were alive (because he had no Essence left for potential injuries or botched surgeries). Over time more efficient enhancers came to market and he not only was old in age, style and story, he also was old in game mechanics.

WR gives players a choice to play (technically, not literally) old, outclassed or obsolete characters, and the more freedom of choice the better.

Oh my Godddess. You are saying this. It should be this way because the book says it is this way, it should be this way.

No, I'm saying that Shadowrun is a game with history. That history includes both fluff and rules. Wired Reflexes three has been an integral part of both since the beginning. Saying "historical reasons for it being in SR4 are bull" is kinda silly.

I'm also saying that there are some games where wired reflexes will be used, even wired 3. That's because there will be times when the older tech makes sense. No character (that isn't a conversion of an older charcter) will probably ever get it, but there are ton of NPCs that it fits.

There's a lot of things in the book that aren't really for PCs (like 3,000,000 vehicles).

Obviously you're free to read into my statements whatever you want, but that doesn't make it right. Just because something doesn't make sense for a PC to have doesn't mean it's not worth including. And as I already said, there will be some PCs for whom WR3 isn't a bad choice, it's a choice that's already been made.

And there you have. The inclusion of WR3 has proven itself to be beneficial. Case closed.

Cyberdecks are still in the game... just take a commlink and put it into a really bigass case.

Heaven forbid that the SR team actually include bits of ware that are inferior to other bits of ware. Because if you put it in the book, you KNOW you have to use it. After all, I used to stay up all night, thinking about the wonderful and exciting ways I could use my two-shot palm-pistol with regular ammo.

Heaven forbid that they might have put certain items in the game that are pretty much exclusively for NPC use on both the high-end AND the low-end!

Of course, now I'm thinking about a guy with MBW4 and a Tiffani Self-Defender.