Uh... it doesn't correspond to the Richter Scale at all. It corresponds to the MMI, which is a measurement of Intensity. But even then it is up-shifted (because who wants a couple of results that people don't even notice?)

The Richter Scale is a measurement of the total amount of energy released by an earthquake at its source. The Modified Mercali Indexis a measurement of how much the ground is actually moving, which is variable depending upon the ground that the energy of the quake is actually moving through. Effects like "top heavy furniture falls" correspond to the earthquake's intensity, not its magnitude.

So if it's very similar to the MMI, why would people who understand earthquake magnitude be confused that it was perhaps supposed to correspond 1:1 with the Richter?

It's like if Shadowrun had a rule for radiation exposure that referred to "dosage" and the hits roughly corresponded to Sieverts and then people started complaing that people who knew what they were talking about knew that dosage refferred to Rads.

-Frank

Proposed Solution--
On the first errata, alter to read as follows:

The problem is that there aren't multiple interpretations. Is it possible that some people will stop read and get confused? Yep. Another word might avoid that, but you can't really fault someone for giving all the information and then it being ignored.

There is a table that is very descriptive of what happens, which according to the examples posted here do not matcht he richter scale. Using knasser's post on the first page:

Magnitude 2 on the Richter scale goes unnoticed. Magnitude 2 on the Mercalli scale goes unnoticed except by some sleepers. Magnitude 2 on the SM scale knocks things over and closes windows.

Magnitude 4 on the richter scale shakes things, makes rattling noises, and is very unlikely to cause significant damage. Magnitude 4 on the Mercalli scale shakes things and closes windows. Magnitude 4 on the SM scale jams doors, causes driving tests, and damages buildings.

It seems pretty clear from those two examples that the SM scale and Richter scale are not the same. If someone wants to not read the rules and then argue about how the rules work no amount of wording changes will fix that mentality.

But you can fault someone for not bothering to take into consideration all of the information available.

Well, here's where that argument falls apart:

Okay, I'm sorry, but you have a slight problem: It's not a separate scale, but a modification of an already-existing scale. Add to that the simple confusion that using the word magnitude, which is from a different scale of earthquake measurement, and using it to describe the effects of the earthquake power to an audience that, if we go from the "people are stupid" angle that the author did when making said scale, are mostly fed their knowledge about earthquakes by popular media.

The problem with the "people are stupid" angle for this is the fact that most people think they know about earthquakes and would automatically assume their knowledge is enough. Even if they don't assume that, a brief browsing of the top options of that scale would pretty much assure them of it. Thus, the reason why some of us have a problem is the fact we don't want FanPro deciding to rewrite the entire power later on just because the author didn't assume people are really that stupid. And, unfortunately for the author, the scale is similar enough to Richter upshifted early on to support such an idiotic conclusion.

You meant the guy that ignores the reference to the table?

I don't really think that's the angle the author was taking. "People are stupid" was posted by SLJames, who, as far as I know, is not the author. Rather, he's a bitter non SR4 player who revels in posting inflammatory comments. His comment was a response to Frank Trollman: "people don't know earthquakes." That's quite a leap from "don't know earthquakes" to "FanPro thinks we're stupid."

Rather, I think they assumed that if they put a link to a table right there in the sentence describing the effects of the power, people would be smart enough to look at that table when trying to determine the effects of the power.

I doubt there's any need to completely rewrite the power, or even change it at all. Worst case scenario they change the word magnitude to something similar but less connected to other earthquake scales to appease the people that can't be bothered to read a table.

/me gives James a cookie.

Actually, to be honest, his entire post kinda said that, only not in as direct a way as SL decided to. But, that's how I read it. And, yes, he did take that angle... The fact he's right in taking it is another discussion entirely.

Which is exactly kinda what the whole argument is over to begin with. I'm perfectly happy to check the table. Hell, what do I really know about earthquakes? I bet I could post what I know about earthquakes and get ten corrections, as well as information about which scales the corrections respond to and, if I ask, who created the scales, how they created them, etc. And that's kinda why I'm here.

Now, here's the problem: How many players out there actually bother to look up anything related to earthquakes? Or have anyone in their group who even knows that the Richter scale was named after a person? Better yet, how many of them have seen a movie with an earthquake in it and assume they know something about earthquakes? All I'm suggesting is change "magnitude" to "power" and leaving it go at that. You end up with a word that is, in the common mind, directly connected with earthquakes and all of the scales of measuring them without allowing some random people who never even bother to come onto a web forum screw up because they don't check the chart and deciding to whine to FanPro about it.

Not argueing the Richter the scale/magnitude thing.

But I have to agree with popularity comes stupid people. I have seen many games changed because people cant read or take a "poorly" written rule (not saying this one is, I dont really care, I would read the chart even though my gut reaction would say I know what magnitude means) and run the hell out of it.

One of the simplest games ever created was Heroclix, I played it often with my brother and friends because most of them didnt have the time or energy (or bank account) to play 40k. You could go into games shops and hear the idiotic arguements about a basic rule, or people crying its cheesey and shouldnt be aloowed. Then a month later Wizkids would post an errata, then making th erule that much more archiac and hard to undcer stand because they added provisions. Then the arguements really would get going. THe rule book went from 15 pages to 15 pages with 40 errata pages because rules were either poorly worded or people tried to reinterupt the rule 9 ways to sunday, even though they seemed pretty explicit.

Just look at this board and look at all the arguements (barring this one) about misinteruptation or alternate interuptation of a rule.

I play in a LARP on some weekends. The rules are so simple its unbelievible. But the word "into" was used to describe a fireball being thrown into a castle. One person says the fireball loses its area effect abilities when it hits a castle, flying into a castle. Another says it loses its area effect when it flies into a castle because we cant build life size castles and it would be unfare to allow a mage to throw one fireball into a castle and kill half the defenders. They spent a large portion of the game day argueing the deffinition of into and wasted a lot of time, because of poorly written rules.

So Im saying, whats the harm in the next printing changing Magnitude to power to keep the confusion down and keep people from ruining the games you love? Sure its easy to say if the morons cant read the full sentence and see that magnitude refers to a handy chart you spent a couple hours making then fuck the idiot. But theyll be the same people writing Rob dozens of poorly writen emails (I bet he gets tons of these doesnt he?) bitching and whinning, hell spend precious time on stupid kids instead of developing books to write erratas and shit like that. Now I have no interest in SR4, as far as Im concerned Fanpro and Wizkids can close shop tomorrow, but I cant stand when people come into a game and dont take the time to read and understand the rules, then cry till my game gets changed to meet their lower level reading skills and spastic brains.

same thing happend with magic the gathering...

You know, I had a really interesting response to this but just chucked it all. I guess I just personally dislike it when developed mechanics and the creators of said realize the potential/impending degree of confusion they are likely to create and then persist in doing so anyway.

Well, until the publicationof the Guardian Spirit, Earth Spirits were alone in the world of having Guard and Movement as non-optional powers. Remember them? Those are the powers that are actually useful in your day-to-day lives. So much so that I'm sure that companies like Doc Wagon pretty much require you to demonstrate the ability to summon an Earth Spirit or a Guardian Spirit before they'll even hire you as a transport mage.

Shipping companies probably feel the same way. I don't know how Hindu magicians even hold down a job.

Movement allows a vehicle to get to its destination in a fraction of the time. Guard allows day-to-day operation of unsafe or high-risk machinery without mishap. If your spirits can't reliably do those things, your spirit isn't useful to industry or society.

And Earth Spirits have Search too. And the highest carrying capacity. By the standards the people in the world use, they are far and away the best spirit type. Even though I admit that they are a little underpowered for Shadowrunners (mostly because the carrying capacity rules are fubar).

-Frank

Well now, that depends on your tradition doesn't it?

You could have a tradition where all your earth spirits appear as naked earthy toned women.

I see someone's been leafing through DnD books...

You're not alone.

Perhaps because it's a really shitty thing to do? Nah...

And yet you called it magnitude. That's, well, really stupid.

Nor when you don't actually have any DnD books.

But in any case, due to the way spirits are done nowadays, it justifies almost any aesthetic. You could have spirits be otherworldy, slightly mundane save for a sense of wrongness, animated floating trees, a cloud of flying bricks, that kind of thing.

Just avoid having a magician whose spirits look like large bugs. It's just asking for trouble.

yes, it does. i've already pointed out how. if you don't like it, that's great. doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, really. but it's still great!

You seem to be missing the point, the MMI (like the Mercalli and Richter scales) also uses magnitudes.

Apparently, and contrary to what some people have said here, the author and editors made the mistake of assuming the typical Shadowrun reader is bright enough to read the sentence through to the end and look at the chart offered right there, rather than going online or pulling out an encyclopaedia and digging out a Richter scale for reference because he assumes magnitude is a reference limited to that scale.

And, thus, exactly what I've said multiple times.

Well, here's a problem: That doesn't amount to jack shit as a point. We have the author to talk to. How many others do? How many of the people who preordered the book actually come onto these forums and talk to the author? Besides, read the quoted section by Synner that I replied to. That's the main point I've said repeatedly.

And, just because it's clear to you and I doesn't mean it's clear to Joe Moron. People like to do a very nasty process called assuming.

In this case, the word "into" was just poor wording choice. If they had used the word "inside" instead, the meaning would be clear-cut. Or, if they had worded it as "when a fireball strikes" instead, the meaning would be clear. In both cases, it's a simplistic wording problem that causes massive problems in interpretation. And all it takes is changing very little to change the entire meaning.

Now, in the case we have here, "magnitude" is just a poor word choice. A poor word choice that exists simply because the author feels that people want the word for flavor. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the fact that it's a poor word choice. And, it's an easily-corrected word choice.

Had to go get the print copy of the book here and reread Quake ... okay, after rereading the printed version and then rereading the post(s) here on the subject, I can say this of it.

After reading the power slowly and with the bias of "refined knowledge from post print" I still have to say ... "okay, magnitude was a wrong choice of wording". As a GM-type and long-time SR player, the power sends a kind of mental "alert flag" into alarm mode in my brain still. Am I going to clarify and/or modify this power for our games here? Oh for sure. For one thing, it's the only power that lasts for several minutes (not turns folks, whole entire minutes) and measures it's radial power in whole kilometers (even Sensing measures in 500's of meters pre-event modifier). The Storm power (SM; pg 102-103) which can in effect do similar damage with the same hits/successes as Quake is measured only in 100's of meters radial.

And before anyone tells me Quake is doing less than Storm, please remind yourself that the energetic release/continguance of Quake makes Storm look absolutely tame and can both directly and indirectly trigger far greater realms of damage than Storm can directly.

I acknowledge and in truth am grateful of the attempts to clarify and/or express "the developers intent" here on the forums ... this is what these kinds of internet locales are good for. I am just still saddened that knowing usage of terminology was the way it was here.

Now as for why I "quoted" the above... the whole "we're going to dumb things down" stuff makes me really laugh. It has been very evident since SR4's release (no doubt evident prior to that by the playtesters) that it was the intent of the game developers to do exactly that. "Dumb Down" or "Streamline" the game system for better play or faster play or ease of play or whatever play. And admittedly to many extents, this has been accomplished. But this situation continues to show me at least that the ability to follow-thru on a methodology has not remained in check. The game's power levels were "dumbed down" and in truth, dropped to "street level" (or a relatively proximal to that). Powers such as this belong in the higher power level games like our long-term PC play here, not as "street magic".

One last comment ... this power does at least give a possible explanation as to what happened to Los Angeles/San Diego in 2069. Can we say "Spiritual Oops?!?"

I agree that it's a simple change. I don't think it's necessary, but they'll probably make it, for the reasons you cited. It's completely impossible for anyone to successfully argue that the effects of the quake power are equivilent to that many hits on the richter scale unless everyone involved opts not to follow the page reference to the table.

Hence my comments earlier about there being a place you have to stop at. You cannot account for every possible case of idiocy, and someone who ignores a clearly stated rule in favor of their own preconceptions is going to need a lot of hand holding. There just isn't enough room in a book to make sure that type of person is always satisfied.

I clearly specified in my post that I was talking about the Jay Stevens I know. Did you somehow miss is, or were you being willfully ignorant. Here it is again, with emphasis:

How is there any willful ignorance on my part?

I can't comment on the exact rule since you didn't include it in your post, but unless you want the SR rulebooks to look like wargame rulebooks, it is impossible to put everything in precise and unmistakable terms. I personally would prefer something that's enjoyable to read. To use an example similar to yours:

Rule: A fireball loses its area of effect when fired into a castle.

Presumably some problems arose because people thought "into" meant "it strikes the castle." Proposed change: switch to "inside."

New rule: A fireball loses its area of effect when fired inside a castle.

Now there's a problem that fireballs outside are 30' wide and fireballs inside only hit one person. Proposed new change: "when a fireball strikes."

New Rule: When a fireball strikes a castle it loses its area of effect.

Now there's a problem that a fireball cast inside the castle that hits a wall does no damage to anyone because it struck the castle.

You can keep refining the wording until you get something that is almost unmistakable, but then you end up with the Star Fleet Battles rulebook. It's a great game, but not something most people would sit back and enjoy reading, and hence would be a terrible design for a roleplaying game.

---

Re power level of quake: Does it state that the effects occur immediately, or does it take all 6 minutes to deal noticable damage to buildings, open cracks, or whatever other effects you're aiming for?

actually, McMurray, they way you stated it leaves it completely open to interpretation whether or not you actually told the the listener that the Jay Stevens you were talking to was the one who lives in Baltimore.

kinda like how SM never states clearly that it's not using the Richter or moment scale--that the table isn't the SR4 game effects of an earthquake of Richter/moment magnitude X (X being the number of hits on the quake test).

No, but it is completely reasonable to point out that people will ignore the table because of the word "magnitude" and then bitch about the power.

Now, how many more times do I have to repeat myself?

No, but there is plenty of room for limiting it. Most of that room is entirely in wording. It's not my fault that most RPG companies don't employ people who are educated enough in English to realize that probably 90% of the rules arguments could be solved just by rewording the problem portions, trading words with potential meanings or problems for ones that lack those, and rewriting unclear sentences. At the very least, I see no excuse for it due to editors. Part of why DnD is the rules nightmare it is amounts to that problem, and that's also why they've had so many problems with the polymorph family of spells.

MFB answered this one perfectly. Let me quote him:

Really, the potential for willful ignorance on your part is not checking your wording to make sure that it specifically excludes certain interpretations. And, it doesn't take a team of lawyers to do that.

Wow. Congrats, James, you fail miserably. The portion I quoted was actually from someone else's example of how games can be destroyed by idiots, and all of it just because of a simple case of wording. Go back and find the post I quoted that from and read it. You'll understand better why I used that example the way I did.

Oh, and it helps to read all of the topic, not just the portions you want to.

Go up and see my point about game companies not truly understanding how to write exacting language in simple English.

How ever many you want. I've mostly agreed with you already, so keep saying it again if you feel like it, but ithasn't been necessary for a page or more.

Silly me, I thought that when I specified clearly who it was I was talking about you'd be able to discern who it was I was talking about. I guess there are enough doofusses in the world that rulebooks need to start coddling people. Congrats, you've convinced me that even people that look on the surface to be intelligent can ignore a reference and somehow think they're being smart while doing it.

Out of curisoty, how do I rephrase my statement so that the person I clearly referenced is even more clearly referenced? What part of "the one that live in Baltimore" was so confusing that it slipped right past both yours and mfb's radars?

You can't even read enough of my posts to see where I spelled out which Jay I was talking about and you want to preach to people about reading? LOL

I agree with you on that. And it isn't just game companies that fail to use easy to understand english sometimes. My disagreement is with the idea that the quake power is not written in simple to understand english. Maybe not simple enough for some people, but certainly simple enough for anyone with the presence of mind to read the entire rule instead of stopping halfway through.

Then why does your wording make it necessary?

What part of your post makes it clear that you are making it clear to the listener in your example that the actual location is indicated? Really, if that's how you want rules written, I don't want to play any game you write. I doubt anyone will be able to fully understand them without having a legal team argue it out in court.

I read it. Once again, where does it make it clear to the listener?

Which is, once again, underestimating human stupidity. Look, I've already stated why enough times. It's time you stopped posting and started connecting the dots. Go back to the part where I've had to repeat myself several times. It applies as an answer here.

anyone is going to misunderstand that they are supposed to look at the results on the referenced table? You would have to be willfully ignorant.

Who in this thread is claiming that they would not understand how the designers intended this rule. I honestly want to know this! And if no-one is stepping forward then what convinces you that other people are going to fail to read the whole sentence?

As I pointed out earlier, magnitude is used for several different scales. It is entirely appropriate to use the word magnitude in reference to the table and nowhere does it refer to other scales.

You know, it also doesn't specify that we are not using the Pokemon scale of Magnitude, which as I'm sure we all know means that a Magnitude 1 inflicts 10 points of Ground-Type damage while a Magnitude 10 inflicts 150 points of Ground-Type damage. That's the same as a Hyper Beam!

And it doesn't specify that we aren't using the Celestial Brightness Magnitude scale, which as I'm sure we all know counts down to the point where the sun is like -26 or something.
There are an infinite number of magnitude scales we could be talking about. Ultimately it was decided to go with cutting off the infinite list and replacing it with a statement as to what scale we were using and figuring that since all magnitudnal posibilities are exclusive that people would be able to piece together the information. You know, where:

A =/= B
A

We just assumed that people could figure out that ~B from context. I still stand by that decision. Mostly because the other option is longer than all written texts ever produced and space was limited.

-Frank

Okay, I've had it: Yes, you are practicing willful ignorance. Let me quote it for you:

Now, where in there does it state the person you are talking to lives in Baltimore? It doesn't. It doesn't provide any hint such information is ever transmitted at all. Just like it gives no indication the one in San Diego has their location transmitted. What is does indicate is that the speaker (you) tells listener (me) that you talked with Jay Stevens. The parenthesis merely serve to indicate to the outside party (a.k.a. God) that there are two people named Jay Stevens that live in different locations and the exact nature of the misunderstanding.

Now, for the love of all that is holy, please tell me you don't write SR rules for FanPro.

no. the part that was poorly-worded was the part where you described the imaginary conversation in which this whole incident occurred. you stated in your post that the Jay Stevens you spoke to lived in Baltimore. however, you sectioned off the Baltimore part in paretheses, which might mean that you're doing it to clarify your statement for the reader, but that you didn't actually say it to the listener in your imaginary conversation.

and jesus christ, man. look at the inane complexity involved in describing who you spoke to. now imagine trying to explain who you spoke to in a book that is going to be handed out to millions of people whose entertainment will be derived from your words. they're all confused, McMurray. the message boards are all afire with raging wars about who you spoke to, or didn't speak to, or who you said you spoke to. the US and China are throwing trade embargoes at each other over it. the moon isn't on speaking terms with Jupiter anymore, because they came down on opposite sides of the issue. you ruined the universe with those parentheses, McMurray.

and that's why they shouldn't use "magnitude" in the quake power!

no, there aren't. we're not playing pokey-man. we're not referring to stars. we're talking about earthquakes, and earthquakes + magnitude = Richter/moment.