on a side note thain, i don't care how bad you are at math, 1 still equals 1.
i have no clue where you're getting the "threshold reduced by three" thing. i mentioned earlier that reducing threshold by 1 is roughly equivalent to 3 dice for any test to which it applies, but that's it.
additionally, just to correct something that came up earlier, you only get that reduced threshold for rigging... remote controlling you have the normal threshold.
Full Version: Riggers, Drones and Upgrades
| QUOTE (Serbitar @ Jan 30 2007, 01:43 AM) |
| The SAM is getting all hes got for rigging for free, he would have bought the stuff if there were 0 rigging benefits. He already owns in real life. |
You know, driving a bike [i]is[/is] real life.
Especially if a Go-Gang is after you...
Lose that silly SR3-rule of reflex boosters not applying in vehicle combat - it didn't apply to synaptic boosters or move-by-wire anyway.
| QUOTE (Thain @ Jan 30 2007, 12:14 AM) |
I am a paralegal, and a historian, not a statistician. The nice thing about my B.A. is History is that it only required first year math.  |
No problem. Not everyone needs to be good at math.
| QUOTE |
| Samurai are fast, I will never deny them that... but they will have, at best, one extra IP. The Rigger has better gear, focused skills, and isn't even there. If the Rigger car is nuked, he just takes dump shock. If the Samurai's car is nuked, his player rolls up a new PC. |
It's not much fun for the rigger, though, to sit somewhere remote-controlling everything.
Anyways... I opened this thread while making a character and I had decided to make a tech-capable character, who is not a liability outside of the protection of a heavily armored car, or the remote-control-bunker, or other random safe spot.
I only read through the rigging rules in detail during the process and realized, that with my Wired Reflex 2 and Control Rig, I don't have a compelling reason to actually use the Control Rig (except for remote controlling, but I don't think I would do that a lot with my car), because once you switch from manual control to mental control your Reaction goes down, which really shouldn't be the case.
Sure, you can buy up Response and do this and that to compensate, but the weirdness is still there, that at first you get worse by going VR, since Response Ratings are so low in comparison.
Another problem is, that you can have a Reaction/Intuition/Logic 1 Rigger who is no different to a Reaction/Intuition/Logic 6 Rigger, since these attributes are not even used at all (same problem as with Hacking and Logic, where you only roll Hacking+Program Rating).
Response (regardless of how you drive; VR could even add 1 to Response here, as it does for Initiative) and Sensors and such should probably just limit maximum hits like a spell's Force, while leaving it to the Rigger's Reaction and Intuition to generate the hits.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Loose that silly SR3-rule of reflex boosters not applying in vehicle combat - it didn't apply to synaptic boosters or move-by-wire anyway. |
Yeah, someone with cybered reflexes should be a better driver than someone without.
But there needs to be another step up (Control Rig). Moving away from using Reaction completely and replacing it with another totally unrelated value causes the above-mentioned discrepancy.
Bye
Thanee
| QUOTE (Thanee) |
| But there needs to be another step up (Control Rig). |
It always puzzled me why people want a normal human with an unmodified brain to be significantly faster than somebody who has a neural system that is barely human - just because that human brain is plugged into virtual reality...
Even as hot sim puts that brain onto 'drug'-overdrive, it's still a normal human brain.
| QUOTE |
| But my point is: The SAM is getting all hes got for rigging for free, he would have bought the stuff if there were 0 rigging benefits. He already owns in real life. The rigger doesnt. |
Its more a trade off then a free ride, the costs in nuyen and essence can't really be ignored. Not to mention the reaction enhancements for other routes in rigging aren't triggered effects. ( Its takes a free action to turn on and off the wired reflexes.)
Its also very obvious when you use wired reflexes as its not a subtle upgrade. ( Be thankful you can turn it off.)
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 30 2007, 10:53 AM) | ||
It always puzzled me why people want a normal human with an unmodified brain to be significantly faster than somebody who has a neural system that is barely human - just because that human brain is plugged into virtual reality... Even as hot sim puts that brain onto 'drug'-overdrive, it's still a normal human brain. |
I'm talking about a character with a Control Rig *and* Wired Reflexes!
The point is *your* (not yours, specifically, rather the driver's
) brain doesn't do *anything* in there. It's not even in the equation (skill rating not accounted for, but skill rating is the same for everyone, differences only apply to the attribute side).When you go VR, you use the vehicle's 'brain' instead of yours...
Bye
Thanee
as i showed just a moment ago, it is easy and cheap to get your response to 5. with a control rig and full VR you can add 4 dice to *all* vehicle rolls. thus, you may have effective reaction 5 versus the 7 your sammy probably has, but you still throw 9 dice on normal (ie not full) dodge. you may have effective reaction 5, but you still throw 9 + skill for any tests versus the 7 + skill your sammy probably has.
and so on and so forth. if you think 2 dice isn't all that much, consider that a rigger gearing up for combat can get within a couple points of your attributes comfortably... that is, 3(5) reaction and agility to your probable 5(7). they can probably get 4(5) (specialisation +2) to their gun skill, as compared to your probable 5(6) (specialisation +2), or maybe even a 6(7) (specialisation +2), but then they will have the reverse advantage in skills in the rigging field. you are looking, basically, at how much you want to specialise, and what you want to specialise in. (and use combat drugs for an extra IP... and remember, if no enemies are alive in IP 3, which is entirely possible, then no one cares if you get an action in IP 3 or not).
essentially, the difference between the rigger and the sammy who can drive is not really all that horribly far off the difference between a sammy and a rigger who isn't totally useless in the meatworld. the difference is that the rigger spent a crapload less BPs getting where he is, and therefore has more BPs to spend elsewhere.
and so on and so forth. if you think 2 dice isn't all that much, consider that a rigger gearing up for combat can get within a couple points of your attributes comfortably... that is, 3(5) reaction and agility to your probable 5(7). they can probably get 4(5) (specialisation +2) to their gun skill, as compared to your probable 5(6) (specialisation +2), or maybe even a 6(7) (specialisation +2), but then they will have the reverse advantage in skills in the rigging field. you are looking, basically, at how much you want to specialise, and what you want to specialise in. (and use combat drugs for an extra IP... and remember, if no enemies are alive in IP 3, which is entirely possible, then no one cares if you get an action in IP 3 or not).
essentially, the difference between the rigger and the sammy who can drive is not really all that horribly far off the difference between a sammy and a rigger who isn't totally useless in the meatworld. the difference is that the rigger spent a crapload less BPs getting where he is, and therefore has more BPs to spend elsewhere.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jan 30 2007, 10:53 AM) | ||
It always puzzled me why people want a normal human with an unmodified brain to be significantly faster than somebody who has a neural system that is barely human - just because that human brain is plugged into virtual reality... Even as hot sim puts that brain onto 'drug'-overdrive, it's still a normal human brain. |
Because:
Reaction time:brain reaction time + nervous system reaction time + muscle reaction time + steering wheel response time
the mroe you take away fromt he equation, the faster you are.
Unfortunately, SR4 does not work that way.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Reaction time:brain reaction time + nervous system reaction time + muscle reaction time + steering wheel response time |
Actually, you forgot sensory input delay.
IIRC, the biggest factor in that equation was brain reaction time, which heavily depended on the state and training - that is proven by that fact that the reaction time for expected events is smaller by factor 10.
Well, this is up to discussion. I just want to motivate why the idea that a pure brain is much faster than pure brain + all that stuff (especially the muscle and steering stuff)
Well, VR is faster than pure brain+stuff.
It is just not faster than non-pure brain+stuff.
It is just not faster than non-pure brain+stuff.
I dont necessarily disagree with that statement.
As I said, this is up for discussion.
Personally I would say that Wired 1-3 does not interfere with the brain at all. If it did VR users had to benefit from it.
And I dont really know how that would fit into the rules. Do you?
As I said, this is up for discussion.
Personally I would say that Wired 1-3 does not interfere with the brain at all. If it did VR users had to benefit from it.
And I dont really know how that would fit into the rules. Do you?
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| And I dont really know how that would fit into the rules. |
Well, there is one thing I know - I wouldn't want to see the threads popping up if a samurai gone hot VR would have 6 IPs.
So it seems like a balancing reason.
Or you just say that wired has no effect on the brain. Problem solved.
(Though, as a consequence, wired would not give IPs for vehicle actions).
(Though, as a consequence, wired would not give IPs for vehicle actions).
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| Or you just say that wired has no effect on the brain. |
And synaptic accelerators? And Adept powers? And Drugs? And Spells?
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| (Though, as a consequence, wired would not give IPs for vehicle actions). |
Why? You just stated that physical driving is involving the enhancements.
Additional powers:
All of them are only body ware and should only increase body speeds/reaction/whatever
Physical Driving:
You get them, via reaction.
After all, you cant control a vehicle via steering wheel and such not like you can control your own body, a jumped in rigger can. SO there must be a severe difference.
All of them are only body ware and should only increase body speeds/reaction/whatever
Physical Driving:
You get them, via reaction.
After all, you cant control a vehicle via steering wheel and such not like you can control your own body, a jumped in rigger can. SO there must be a severe difference.
Driving difficulty would be the Threshold reduction - that hasn't anything to doo with speed, which is IPs.
You lose time by having to physically steer the wheel and such things. Thats whats impacting
on speed.
But this discussion is lost in details which depend mostly on point of view. I think the main points have been argued. I can understand your reasoning but I just have different priorities and weights for the various arguments.
on speed.
But this discussion is lost in details which depend mostly on point of view. I think the main points have been argued. I can understand your reasoning but I just have different priorities and weights for the various arguments.
| QUOTE |
| After all, you cant control a vehicle via steering wheel and such not like you can control your own body, a jumped in rigger can. |
SR3 called, it wants its rules back
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