Ok, I'm currently reading through the sections about Riggers and Drones and looking at the example character, I'm wondering how exactly are Drones upgraded in Response and Signal, and what are their starting values there?

Is there any information about this out there, or do you have to make it up entirely?

Bye
Thanee

The same way as commlinks and everything else.

Their device rating is 3.

Ah, I see.

So they just start with Response 3 / Signal 3 | Pilot 3 / Firewall 0?1?3? and you move up from there.

Thanks!

Bye
Thanee

Device rating 3 means FW 3, too.

Security vehicles do have 4, drones have 3.

I just found that table. Now that's some well-hidden information...

Bye
Thanee

Hmm... page 212 has example Signal Ratings... and lists micro-drones at 2 and crawlers at 4.

Shouldn't those be used instead of the more generic 3 then?

Bye
Thanee

Yeah. Probably. The table you mentioned before should really say Drones: 3ish. 2 and 4 are 3ish. Ratings of 3 are not carved in stone, and if you have the time and desire you should vary device ratings a little bit, but that table gives you a good starting point to use as a guideline.

One more question... am I right to assume, that Drone Response does not take a hit for running many Autosofts (since they do not even have a System Rating, though Pilot could be used instead here)?

Bye
Thanee

Device|Node|Commlink|Drone
Response = Device Rating
Signal = Device Rating
Firewall = Device Rating
System = Pilot Rating

Alright, thanks!

Bye
Thanee

You might find this thread interesting, discussing several aspects of drones:

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16152

i would say that the easiest way is to just look at the pilot rating of said drone, translate that into a device rating and go from there.

that means that all drones in SR4 BBB have all their stats (responce, pilot (it replaces system in a drone), signal, firewall) at 3 as a starting point.

the FAQ explicitly mentions that drones with built in weapon mounts have a response of 4.

Which is more expensive than the drone itself . . .

That'snot unusual though; the Ares Predator, for example, contains a Smartlink which is more expensive than the gun.

Hmm... I'm just wondering what the point of "jumping into" a vehicle is.

If I have a good Reaction, I only get to roll less dice for maneuvering than before, since I use Response (i.e. 3 for a typical vehicle) instead of Reaction (i.e. 8 with Reaction Enhancers) then to make my Pilot Check as per the errata.

Even with a Control Rig and hot sim VR (which comes along with some disadvantages even), I'm off worse than before. Huh!?

So, why should I "jump into" the vehicle, when it only makes me slower?

Bye
Thanee

You get additional dice (+2 in hot VR) you get -1 Threshold in Hot VR, you get 3 IPs in Hot VR. You can utilize a Control Rig (+2 dice).

And I would use the Response the Persona is running on. Thats the Commlinks. I would only use the drones Response for tests when the Drone Pilot is doing somehting.

And I personally would disallow more than 1 vhehicle test per turn if not jumped in.

Furthermore I would not allow dodge/infiltration... actions and such when not driving in VR. Manually you are only allowed to do vehicle tests and thats it.

I am telling you nothing new when I say that I think the matrix/rigging RAW are not that good . . .

Evasive Driving doesn't make a difference, though, that's just Full Defense.

well, here's a few points:

1) it's generally cheaper to upgrade response than it is to upgrade reaction.

2) the +2 dice from control rig apply to everything. when stacked with hotsim bonus, you're looking at +4 dice for rigging the vehicle.

3) it is substantially cheaper to get hotsim VR than it is to get 3 meat IPs.

4) reduced thresholds is worth 3 dice, on average, to any test to which it applies. ask your GM if he includes thresholds set by other dice rolls (for example, an attack with 3 hits could be argued to have a threshold to dodge of 3)

4) the savings over having meat IP boosters means you can afford to spend more money on your vehicle. for example, you can install 5 weapon mounts, put smart firing platforms in them, and load each one up with an ares alpha, LMG, or whatever... because instead of blowing a minimum of 32,000 and 3 essence (more likely you're going to go for alpha, which makes it 64,000, or synaptic booster 2 for 160,000) for wired 2, you spent 10,000 for a control rig (0.5 essence), 10,000 for response 5, and you've got an effective base dice pool of 9, before skills, for any vehicle related test. you also have essence available for later improvements, which the guy with 3 meat IPs won't. the savings may also mean you can add on a few more drones, a back up vehicle, etc.

so sure, the guy with 3 meat IPs probably won't go for hotsim rigging. so sure, there's not a whole heck of a lot of incentive for your sammy to choose rigging over normal driving. i don't see this as a major problem, though, because rigging is much better for 90+% of the people out there (keeping in mind you need 9 reaction to equal the effective reaction of a person with response 5, control rig, and hotsim, which isn't available at chargen)

of course, imo it's still better to get the best of both worlds and install a good command program on your commlink, and remote control your vehicles from hotsim. but that's just me.

There appears to be a slight glitch in the errata about using "Command" to control drones.

Of course the "commlink-type signal" has one rating and the sensor package has a seperate signal rating. They are two different things, the drones commlink signal measures, cheifly, how far away it can be from you can receive communications. This is exactly analogous to the signal rating of your character's commlink.

The sensor package has a singal too, but this measures how far its sensors can pick upon things. This is analogous to the rating of your character's handheld geiger counter, or other sensors he might carry.

There are basically three things you can do with a drone:

- You can remote control a drone, where you control it.
- You can rig a drone, "ride it", and control it better.
- You can issue commands to a drone, and let its Pilot act on its own.

Got stuck with the reference loop in several sections, would be nice not to use similar terms for different effects.

Yeah, I certainly see where you are getting to...

It's still somewhat weird, though, that you cannot get Reaction values for purely mental actions (same with Astral and the Matrix, really), which can compete with cybered meatbodies... there's something wrong in the concept here.

Bye
Thanee

Only wired reflexes lv3 give a better edge to initiative overall, and it comes with steep cost in essence and nuyen which makes it less attractive for other disciplines. ( Theres also the annoying free action to activate it and the potential for someone to deactivate it.)

Plus running in AR mode leaves you vulnerable to distractions in the meat world which may add penalties to matrix activities.

Not to mention the tricks you can play with Agents, drones and spirits can potentially make up for less raw initiative and initiative passes.

What the heck are you on about now? It's 5 Essence!

It was 5 essence when it didnt own rigging and hacking! So it obviously was worth 5 Essence without those. Which makes it obviously too good if it now also owns rigging and hacking.
And you can get synaptic 3 now.

But my major point is still fluff and setting. I want VR rigging and VR hacking to be far superior to anything meat-style. Everybody discussing with me should know that.

They are superior; look at Jaid's posts.

We have:
response 6, skill 6, VR 2, Rigger Control 2, VR threshold bonus 3 = 19 dice and 3 IPs on the one hand
and
reaction 9, skill 6 = 15 dice and 4 IPs on the other.

Thats not what I would call superior.
Fortunately the simple house rule that allows only 1 vehicle action per turn when not going VR fixes this quite nicely.

Seems like the Samy can do everything like mad, well except casting spells.

(21 x 0.33) = 6.93

Well, remember my statement about humans, mathematicians and statisticians? This is 2nd year math and people seem to make mistakes . . .

I am a paralegal, and a historian, not a statistician. The nice thing about my B.A. is Hostroy is that it only required first year math.

Anyhow, even if we adjust a few decimal places, the Rigger is getting more hits on average. That's the real point, my crappy math just makes it a little harder to follow, I guess.

So, the Rigger's 21 dice, give him 7 hits on average. With all thresholds lowered by 3.
And the Samurai's 13 dice, give him 4 1/3. Serbitar's hypothetical 15 dice driver-urai gets 5.

The Rigger is adhead in the money-put-into-my-car game (I may have gotten a C in statistics, but gosh darn it I got an A in addition/subtraction ), which is a signifigant advantage.

Samurai are fast, I will never deny them that... but they will have, at best, one extra IP. The Rigger has better gear, focused skills, and isn't even there. If the Rigger car is nuked, he just takes dump shock. If the Samurai's car is nuked, his player rolls up a new PC.