Is it in any way shape or form by the rules mandated you must build a character from the top down?

I.E.
You must first choose your metatype
Then you must choose your attributes
Then you must choose your skills
Then you must chooseyour knowledge/language skills
Then you must choose your qualities
And then and only then can you choose your resources?

I have been told this is true to the point that even the people in charge have been quoted as saying this is true.

Nope, I've had people suggest for a technomancer you -start- with Complex Form buys then move on.

Sometimes creation will require you to start in different areas. Heck, sometimes a character idea for me springs from certain gear or spells or something, and so I build backwards to make sure I get the core of the character done. You're not required to do it in a certain order, but sometimes that's the best way. *shrug*

Yeah, it's totally random, really. Sometimes I start with a basic concept and build, sometimes it's gear or fighting style...sometimes I see a picture or something that inspires me, and then I build however I feel(skills first, attributes first, etc). Whichever works, really.

I generally start with a concept then flesh it out as I go along, and inspirations sometimes occur too.

WMS

It doesn't matter what order you do things, mostly, but Cyberware and Bioware's affects are spelled out more specifically on pg. 84. They affect Magic or Resonance (in other words, you have have an initial Magic or Resonance that you have bought, then the 'ware reduces it). And boosts from cyberware or bioware don't affect other aspects of character creation (cerebral boosters don't give you more free knowledge skills).

Me, I go back and forth a lot - stuff doesn't cost as much, so I go back and add some skills, or I need money, so I lower Edge by a point, and so on. It's not set in stone.

This matters in the alternate systems, but not all that much in BP.

If you really think about it, it's just about impossible to create many characters following the prescribed layout. Magicians, Adepts, and Otaku, for example, are required to buy a Quality in order to be what they are. Because they need specialized skills and attributes, you end up having to buy Qualities first, then go on to other choices.

Character creation in SR4 involves a lot of back-and-forth. There really isn't a good example of character building in the BBB, and it's time-consuming, no matter how you look at it. So, really, there isn't any good order in which to do things. You're going to end up playing with a lot of fiddly bits, no matter how you slice it.

Come up with a concept or personality. Then buy stuff. For example, Biker magician.

I personally think it is about tinkering. You start with a concept and then just tinker around until you find something you like. Then you tinker some more just to get that slight amount of tweak that most SR characters need... well depending on what you want I guess...

See I make my characters the same way bounce where I want as I find I need to in order to get what it is I am after in character concept.

I was told though that the books layout is set in stone (paraphraseing here) by the developers.

This is due to how I see magic/resonance and the effects of cyber/bio vs. what the current GM of our group see things.

YES I get it it's his game no problem with it, the issue is his argueement on why is all he said he would e-mail the devs and I was like whatever so I guess I'll see what if any answer he gets back. I know the devs are busy and questions like this are not of high priority as there are no rules that are in anyway vauge about this anywhere in the book. I.E. no where does it say something like your GM would have final say.

In my opinion the books layout for character creation was done the way it was cause they started at the top of the character sheet and worked there way down in first edtion why change now.

Just point out what I did: you can't create many character types that way. In order to make a magician, you need to buy the Edge first. If you assign attributes before you buy the Magician Edge, you can't go back and give yourself a Magic higher than 1. You can't buy any Awakened skills, since they all require you to have a Magic attribute, and you won't have that until you're a magician. Basically, you can't create the character.

I think his biggest problem isn't the sequence, but how character creation handles Magic loss. Namely, you buy the Magic rating, then it gets lowered by cyberware or bioware. He's suggesting an alternate house rule in another thread, but his GM is taking the RAW position.

But I don't think one instance of something coming first means the entire sequence is set in stone.

Actually, purely by RAW (emphasis mine):

SR4 character generation without a spreadsheet causes herpes.

When you have a spreadsheet it doesn't matter because the trick maths works it out for you.

See my response below Cthuludreams post.




Actually, I use Daegaan's character generator and it does all the math and calculations for me. Heck you can use it with Karmagen characters (just remember it doesn't calculate the karma cost properly, and it screws up the Complex Forms calcs pretty badly).

Daegaan's makes it is almost TOO easy to make characters! You have plenty of time to putz around with your character.

Glyph has nailed it on the head. I am the GM in question for Casazil. His standpoint is that a character at GENERATION can purchase his gear skills and his attributes then at some point during generation Awaken and purchase his Magic Rating without losing his magic rating due to already or previously installed cyber/bio/nanoware. I said that it was not possible that the influx of foreign material which hit essence always translates to a loss in your purchased Magic Rating. If you bought Magic at 5 (40 BPs) and had 1 point of Essence removed for Implants you now have a rating of 4.
Did I get that right Casazil?

Magus is correct as far as RAW goes. Either way, if he's your GM, thats how it is RAW or not.

Ah ha.

You can't apply a magical quality after you've deducted Ess (and Magic) for implants.

As far as I know, the only way to get around losing Magic from implants is to take Latent Awakening, which means the character won't be starting with any of your magical goodies, skills, etc. And, in fact, won't get any magical anything until the GM says so.

-paws

You could take latent awakening and let your GM decide when to give you a magic of one.

First off Ilet me say I have NO issues with how Magus runs our games If I did i'm sure when I run the game i'd some woppers from him

This thread was just to clear up that in no way, shape, or form does the book nor do the devs state you must build your character in the order the lists.

To others yes latent awakeing is one way to go not that it matters to my character as I'm the hacker with only 1.95 essence!

It was just something that came up in conversation with another player and was then asked of Magus who said no.

So Magus the question is not about magic and augmentations so much as it is about getting an answer as to you must build your character this way as you said I posted it here as I thought it would provide a faster response as well as view points from other players/GM's.

The book does say that you should try to follow the order of the steps as outlined, but once you're comfortable, you don't necessarily need to. You points to how you think it works if you go out of order are horribly incorrect though.

If there is a sequence which lowers the cost for anything relative to the standard sequence, it's likely that the cost when the standard sequence is followed is the expected cost.

When order is important, then apply the standard order of operations. This applies to mathematical operations in general.

I think most of you have seen the classic

2 * 3 + 4 = ?

While you can choose the order that can give you the lower or higher number, there actually is a standard order of operations which gives you the standard expected result for this problem.

I have Daegann's as well, and it's still time-consuming to come up with a character. You're still doing a lot of back-and-forth, and gear is still a hassle. I think he did a fine piece of work; it's the sheer fiddliness of the underlying system that's the problem.

I'll also add that saying a pen-and-paper system is good because you can use a fan-made computer program is just silly. By that logic, SR3 should be the greatest system out there, thanks to the sheer wonder that is NSRCG.

I't takes a friggin half an hour to do a character in karmagen(except gear), there really isn't anything fiddly about the system.
Of course it takes a little longer if you don't have any idea what kind of a character your going to make.

Depends how 'optimised' you want to be. Its eaking out that last 20% that takes alot of time because you need to be much more aware about what dropping from a 6 to a 5 can get you vs the 5 to 4 relationship etc.

Honestly, it still doesn't take me more than about 20 mins to make a character, maybe an hour if I really want to get stupidly picky about it. Since I got used to SR4 chargen, I stopped understanding about all the "hassle" it is to make a character. Cain's mentioned it takes him days, which still blows my mind.

It can take me weeks to finalize a character, but that is because I am a hardcore perfectionist, & am always examining the "final" product for possible needed adjustments.

I can easily create a quick-n-dirty character in 20-30 minutes, but in general, it takes people an hour or two, mostly due to equipment (by far the most time-consuming aspect for most characters).

Equipment (even in basic D&D) can always be a stickler, depending on character needs and capabilities. In modern setting RPG's, it's worse, simply because of the increased volume of choices. So yeah, I can see that taking awhile. But I generally also see that as being not quite as important in the character generation. If I can get a name, basic idea of the character, and basic stats and must-have gear down, I can figure out the remaining amount while the GM starts setting up the game. *shrug* That's just me though.

One character, took three days to complete. Admittedly, he is hyper-optimized in a number of ways, and can break certain situations just by looking at them , but it still takes time to make a character who can be truly effective and good at their job in SR4. The fastest I've ever seen a character made was just over two hours, and that was with the aid of a spreadsheet.


The problem here is that gear plays a bigger role in Shadowrun than D&D. Namely, commlinks/cyberdecks and cyberware are part of the defining characteristics of some characters. In fact, I've often seen samurai builds centered around a particular piece of cyber. Less common are the characters built around a specific piece of gear, such as a monowhip. Gear has always been an important thing in Shadowrun; in fact, it's often more about what gear you have rather than what you can do.

Time to make characters can vary for me. I mean, of course if I know I'll be playing in an hour or two, I can whip up a concept, stat it out, pick out some gear, write a couple lines of background and be done. But if I get a really good idea for a concept, I tend to take my time.

Now that SR4 has a fully-functioning Karmagen system in RC(using Becks a lot before), this can stretch out the time a bit, I admit. Even with a calculator, it's a little more picky. Now, even then, the numbers don't take me forever, a couple hours and numbers, with basic gear are usually done. However, I'm one of those people that fall into ''those last few points'' syndrome. I always end up with a selection of points that I want to use to some random skills or whatnot; usually these are simple, fleshing out-skills. And I always end up wondering what the hell I want to spend them on. Gear usually goes fast for me, again, until I run into those last few bits. Similar thing with ''damn, what do I spend this last half power point on? What is this last maneuver I should get?''

naturally, background takes awhile. The concept/basic idea isn't much, but I do love the damn 20 questions. Sometimes, I find that halfway through, I get an idea for doing a bit of switching around with the paper, though...so I end up doing that. So yeah, a nice, in-depth character can sometimes take me awhile, depending.

For me it depends on the character and the char gen method. Karma based gen takes longer, because I end up with a ton of low level skills and a much more well rounded character. Magic users and rigger-types also take longer because you spend a lot of time customizing the spell list or rig. The story tends to come to me as I make choices, so it takes longer if I get a good hook and the background gets huge.

The way I see it working, Casazil, is that yes, technically if say, when your character was 14 he got cerebral boosters, cybereyes, reflex enhancers, and and wired 3 and then when he was 16 he Awakened and worked his magic up to his maximum of 4, then he would never have lost magical ability due to essence loss, he would have a lower capacity than someone with no cyber/bio, but he wouldn't have lost any. However, when you are making the character to keep him balanced with other character of his level you don't get to pay 30 BP to get a magic of 4 and lower his max magic by two. A character with 2 point worth of cyber that still has a magic 4 is substantially more powerful than his counterparts. Which is why, regardless of how you want to write his story, if you want magic 4 and 2 points worth of cyber/bio then you pay 65 BP to get your magic to 6 and then it drops by two when you buy your cyber for game balance purposes. You can write the story anyway you want, but in character generation any loss of essence you have is rounded up to the nearest whole number and applied as a penalty to both your current magic rating and your maximum magic rating whenever you happen to decide to allot BP to it. It is simply a game balance consideration and nothing else.

Chris

*shrug* I think you put too much thought and time into it, Cain, to be honest. Even my newer players can come up with workable, fleshed out concepts in less than an hour.

It's possible; but I've seen a lot of characters made. I've run a few Missions games, and seen players make characters make them for other Mission GMs. Experience level with the game didn't seem to matter; I still didn't see a viable character appear in anything less than two hours. I did see a few come out faster than that; but those tended to have serious mistakes in them, like the otaku who forgot to buy up her Resonance past 1 as the *biggest* mistake.

I think there is a big difference between a playable character and a believable professional character. You can easily play a template character out of the book with no fake sins and few contacts. This might not be considered believable, however this is a game with dragons flying around so I can see both sides of that coin. For me it takes me 30 min to spend 300BP and 4 days to spend the last 100BP... too many options.

Both being "believably professional" and "playable" are valid concerns. However, while you can fudge a bit on believability, you can't on playability concerns. I've seen a couple characters come into game that had no fake SIN, or the SINner edge. You can work around that, but it does stretch credulity, and enjoyment of the game for everyone else. I mean, every other PC gets their fake SIN interrogated each and every time they buy a bag of chips, it's just not fair to let somebody else slide because they made a mistake in character creation.

This actually happened in a game I was playing in. We had to make a border crossing, and I took extra precautions to thicken up my fake ID. Most everyone was sweating bullets as our ID's were double-checked, hoping we'd make it through without a firefight. We then discovered that one new player had forgotten to buy a fake SIN. She got handwaved through, since the game would have died if we'd fought, and the plot depended on us getting through.

As for playability, the big problem is that the non-optimized character is going to get bored. With everyone else shining at their roles, you're simply not going to get a lot of spotlight time without serious work from the GM. For example, if you've got a character who's not good at combat, he's not going to be of much help in a firefight, and maybe even a hindrance. So, combat will be boring for that PC. That's OK if he makes up for it in other areas; but if he keeps getting outshone in those areas as well, you're going to have a player that feel useless.

That's only true if the team stays together all the time, sometiemes you just need to do multiple thinks at the same time and that when the non-specialist gets to shine.
Unless of course she really isn't good at anythink and that is a real accomplismend to who ever made the character, becouse i don't think i could make character like that even if i tried

Well, it's not hard to make a good specialist who has the essentials covered in other areas, or even a character who is good at several things. But in an open build system, you can overgeneralize to the point of near-uselessness.

What you're saying can be true if there's 2+ specialists on a team, such as having two deckers. The primary decker is going to shine, but the GM can split them up so that the not-so-good one will have some spotlight time.

However, the reason I bring up this specific example is because I saw it happen. One player became very upset because his character wasn't as good at decking as the rigger. He didn't build his character right, and felt useless as a result. Even when split up, he saw the rigger sail through tasks that were challenging him. Eventually, he ended up retiring the character and building something different. The character wasn't bad; he just wasn't as good as the rigger; who could do other things, to boot.

If one character is clearly superior to another, the players *will* notice. And that can cause stress on a game. In addition to the overgeneralizing problem, a lot of bad feelings can come when you're noticing other players rolling 15-20 dice on a regular basis, routinely scoring critical successes, leaving you to feel inadequate with your 8-10 dice.

Edit: forgot to mention that I have seen some completely useless characters come out. I already mentioned the SR4 otaku who had a Resonance of 1 as her biggest mistake. She forgot to buy it up. Even though she had decent computer skills and complex forms, she simply didn't have enough Resonance to do much in the Matrix. She had so many other problems, we ended up practically rewriting the character from scratch in order to fix them.

That's what the GM is for, to help insure that the player makes a playable character. Not all players will understand the rules, especially the first time in. Any GM who approves a character with a debilitating flaw like a Resonance of 1 needs to doublecheck their GMing and approving skills, as they're obviously lacking. No character should *ever* get playtime without GM approval. It's your only chance to make sure that the person followed the rules, isn't being stupidly twinky, and didn't miss anything critical in the creation process.

Ive seen characters go both ways before, many times.

At our table, we do play a bit more of a ''higher level'' game if you will, aka ''semipro''. You're no prime runner, but you're a cut above a 400 BP(750 BP method). We like wide characters(as in, lots of 2-4's in skills, with a couple higher, and a couple lower.) Our games might seem pretty generous compared to the average 400 BP chargen, especially since we don't use Availability limits at chargen. Our low end DPs usually run 5-7, middleground 8-12, and the high stuff, 16-20(for those folks who like to have a 5/+2 or 6/+2 skill and specialize.

THAT being said, that's not permission to go out and make Bloodzilla the Pornomancer. If anything, because we are so generous, if I'm GMing, I tend to look at folks who try to break it as really asking for it in a sense. As generous as we are, you don't *need* to munch stuff up. So even though we might be pretty gentle in terms of rules at chargen, we still look over the characters. We believe in letting people make the character they really see in their heads; as long as they aren't trying to ''omg win the game!'' at the table. Basically, no matter how high-powered or low-powered your game is, always make sure that the characters are at least somewhat on the same page.

Also, it's just as easy to go the other way. When the party, as said, is running skill lists of 5-18 DPs depending on low/middle/high/speciality skills, and you whip out a character who rolls 7 dice for a laundry list of skills...well, I don't *stop* you from playing that character, but I will let you know you're going to probably feel left behind and end up as a helper for a lot of skill tests, and you might want to rethink it before I work the character into the story and you get bored with it.

The starting place for your character obviously makes a difference. Starting with a high BP or Karma character will require more work and backstory. Playing a low power, ganger game doesn't need as much build time or backstory. If your character is 16, there is only so much backstory you can have.

When I used to GM I would suggest to my players that they consentrate on doing one thing well, and lay the groundwork for where they want to take the character with the rest of char gen. You'd be surpised how often seemingly little "flavor" skills changed the way the player role played and developed the character.

That's exactly what I did. The problem was, we ended up making so many sacrifices from other areas, she lost a lot of other abilities. And the time factor, having to go back and redo so many things, pushed character creation time up by another two-three hours. Meanwhile, the players who had their characters completed just sat around and ate pizza. Not fun. As I recall, we ended up with almost no play time that session.