Okay, searching for vampire, or vampire cyberware was of no help on this front.

I have a character. He has cyberware/bioware augmentation (not so much as a scrap of Betaware) down to Essence 2, he gets turned into a vampire.

What is his essence now? What is his maximum essence? Does he have a point of magic or not? We know he can now only receive Delta Grade implants, but what about his old implants?

What ABOUT the Type-O quality and bioware?

His Essense would be 1, since becoming Infected costs a metahuman a point of Essense (he will also start out with a Magic of 1). He will lose any non-deltaware implants, but can get 'ware to fill the Essense hole. Standard bioware taken with the Type O positive quality is functionally deltaware, so I would lean towards letting the character keep it. Note that this quality does not apply to cultured bioware, which, like cyberware, must be taken at delta grade.

So if he had Cyberware forearms...

If they weren't Delta, he grew new Forearms.

Okay. Where do we see the rule on 'rejecting old cyberware and growing new ones', or is this simply off the ruling in RC about 'Deltaware only for regenerating infected'? it /was/ paid for with essence before the infection.

So? The rules aren't ambiguous in any way. Vampires can only accept deltaware, because of their regeneration ability. There is no exception listed for pre-implanted cyberware, so the general consensus is that it gets violently rejected from the body (this was more explicitly stated in previous editions).

just for the record, i wouldn't allow type O to work for an infected. the reason you need deltaware is not because the proteins don't match, but because there isn't any off-the shelf vampire 'ware to install. you are essentially designing the 'ware from the ground up, because there aren't really standardized plans for vampire 'ware, and as a result the 'ware you get is pretty much going to be designed just for you, and will therefore (as a result be deltaware).

this is why there is an optional rule for more common 'ware for critters (AFAICT); essentially, in those cases, the GM is ruling that the combination of that type of 'ware with that type of critter is common enough that you don't have to design the 'ware just for that individual because someone has actually designed more generic 'ware for that particular species.

so for example, it's probably reasonable to suppose that in one of the naga kingdoms (over in cambodia, i think?) someone has designed some more common cyberware and bioware for nagas. so if you were to take a naga character over to the naga kingdoms, you could probably reasonably expect that, say, datajacks, implanted commlinks, cybereyes/ears, implanted sim modules, and other more common 'ware has been developed to the point that there are trained doctors to implant them (and of course shadow doctors, who may or may not be trained...) and companies that produce off-the-rack implants for nagas.

Cool! Now then..

'Natural Essence' refers to the regular limit of 12, yes? This reduced Vampire, if he is loaded with bioware, is he paying double as per his doubled essence? So 2.1 essence cost of deltaware costs him 6 off his essence cap of twelve?

What about his magic?

To say nothing of the fact that Type O quality + metahuman with Regeneration = endless pot of gold in the right markets....

- J.

O.O

Wonder if I could sell my own?

Non-Infectious?

the strain of HMHVV that produces vampires can only infect people who have been drained to 0 essence and are in the process of dying. so, strictly speaking, any bioware you pulled from a vampire would not be infectious, unless you had a vampire surgeon who drains the subject to zero essence as they are implanting the 'ware (which, while kinda creepy, kinda defeats the point, since the vampire would at that point be directly infecting the subject).

also, the 'ware wouldn't actually be implantable into a normal human anyways, because it would be vampire 'ware.

I wonder what a vampire cyberzombie would look like in terms of stats.

Humm.

Regular Organs, Jaid. Also, you're mistaken. You're talking about Critter Ware.
Vampires are NOT critters. They're Infected. Essentially human in all respects.

no, they aren't really human any more. humans don't regenerate, don't have to suck the life force/pattern out of other people, don't procreate by killing other people through the process of sucking out their lifeforce and/or depatternizing them, can't turn into mist, aren't immortal, aren't allergic to sunlight and wood (as a race, though specific individuals may be) and in general simply aren't vampires.

hate to break it to you, but a vampire is most definitely *not* a human. you change that much about something, and it ceases to be the same type of creature. we're pretty firmly in "magically modified on a genetic level into a completely different creature" territory.

Not IIRC. You can buy cultured bioware in any of the grades (standard, alpha, beta and delta) aware to other modifications.

Jaid: Wasn't Shadowrun more along the lines "Vampires and Ghouls are just sick humans."?

Isn't HMHVV more or less the most invasive gene-therapy ever?
And the Fanbase is pretty much divided on the Vampire-Stuff . . Ghouls, yes, Sick Humans, but Vampires?
they differ too far from normal, they simply can't be the same . . also, wasn't there that bit about dieing?

not as a vampire, you can't. type O doesn't apply to cultured bioware because it is never off-the rack.

now then, on to vampires as sick humans: no, not really. ghouls, maybe, but even then probably not quite. look at it this way: elves, orks, trolls, and dwarves are all somewhat different from humans. but ultimately, they have a heck of a lot in common: similar diets, similar activity cycle, they heal at the same rate, same basic shape, etc.

vampires have changed to the point where they require blood from other creatures to survive. they can simply cease to have a humanoid form and turn into mist. they regenerate. their activity cycles changes from diurnal to nocturnal. the changes are simply too great for them to be a normal human. i don't know exactly what problems you might encounter if you had an organ that steals your blood and essence, may randomly turn into mist, and regenerates replacing your natural one, but i can't imagine it's gonna be pleasant.

I am pretty sure that any cyber implanted before the infection stays, and anything new is required to be of delta grade. Let me look it up to be sure.

The rules say nothing to indicate the former (unless it's tucked away somewhere other than the main section on infected).

Under previous editions cyber was never forced out, so we can start there for some anecdotal evidence, and then go into the rest of the infected sections, none of which say what you assume happens, actually happens. It only says specifically that the infected that regenerate cant get any new augmentations. Additionally, the transformation under the "Infection In Play" on page 83 of Runner's Companion also says nothing about augmentations. Just that they wake up after 30-Body hours as a whatever.

whyt did you smoke?
under 3rd ed regeneration it stated pretty clearly, that cyber was forcibly ejected from the body . .
only with ghouls certain cyber stayed in and bio was absorbed and most cyber in there would have to be repaired after the fact . . if the now doubled essence loss did not simpy kill you deader . .

Probobly what I was thinking of Stahlseele. Guess I'm wrong.

eh it happens . . <racist>those HMHVVTypes all look the same to me>/racist>

Next Question:
I have installed Cyberware. After transformation I have a magic of one, but a lowered magic cap. Raising my magic to two will cost me 6karma. If I then install enough bioware to lose a point of magic, does it cost me 6karma to raise it back to 2, or does it now cost me 9karma to raise it back to 2?

technically, you are still raising it from 1 to 2. some people may not like that, but in terms of just following the rules, it costs 6 karma to go from 1 to 2, whether this is your 1st or 5th time raising your magic (and it would be the same the 6th time, if you were somehow able to lose 6 magic points and still be able to raise your magic attribute...

What Jaid said, but remember that losing Essence due to bioware will also lower your Magic cap, and if you were at an Essence of 2 before, then you might not be able to raise your Magic back to 2.

As long as you have positive magic you can get initiated. We already worked out in another thread somewhere that a "will be" cyberzombie with 1 essence and 1 magic can get initiated, get a second point of magic (etc.) until he's ready to lose that last essence (or more).

no, you need essence > 1 to be able to initiate. if your initiate grade is high enough, you'll be able to retain your magic with an essence of less than 1, but you won't be able to continue to increase it.

the way it works is that if you have an essence of 1.00 and a magic attribute of 1, you can then initiate (once, the cap being equal to your magic attribute) which increases your magic cap by one, which enables you to raise your magic to 2, which increases your initiation cap to 2, etc.

if you have an essence of 0.99 or less, your magic attribute cap is equal to 0. if you have already initiated, your magic cap becomes your initiate grade (for the sake of argument, let's say it's 4). provided you have at least 4 points of magic remaining, you could then keep your initiate grade of 4 and 4 points of magic, but could never improve it (remember your maximum magic attribute is 0 + initiation grade, and your initiation grade is capped at magic... so max magic = 0 + initiate grade (which is just initiate grade) and your max initiate grade is your magic attribute, both stats are maxed out and cannot be improved)

Last I checked, implants paid for with essence are considered to be part of you for magical purposes, so as long as you where implanted before you where infected the implants should remain.

Jaid is correct. Essence must be at 1+ and Magic must be at 1+ in order to keep the Magic Attribute and be able to improve it.

The best thing to do if you end up in a situation where your Magic rating and your Initiation ranks are equal (with less than 1 Essence) is undergo the Essence restoring process (name escapes me) so you can get your Essence up to 1+ again.

'Revitalization Gene Therapy'

And it only works if the cyberware that caused it is no longer present and IIRC doesn't work on essence drained due to things like Vampires.

Lost magic potential doesn't return in the process. Just essence.


Yes, it does work from essence lost through things like energy drain - addiction, too.

Given that I've only looked at the description once (back when I first read Augmentation) I'll concede. I've never had a character who needed the tweak.

They don't, though. In previous editions of SR, ghouls and other infected would rather violently (and painfully) reject their cyberware, their tissue regenerating in the process. Consider it somatic memory - once the body can regenerate at will, it will go back to its original blueprint. No idea why the essence doesn't return but, well, shit, it's magic!

Must REALLY suck when that cranially implanted cyberdeck/commlink decides it needs to come out. You think it comes out of his sinus cavities and he just coughs it up, or does it crack through the skull and ooze out?

Probably that last one. Cracks the skull and oozes out.

How delightfully gruesome then. O_o'

All I could say is, "yikes". No wonder so many of them don't make it full ghoul status in SR3 or in very least go insane.

I think the brain cyber would kill you. Damage to the brain and spine is not regenerated. What about bio and geneware?

in SR3 ghouls, bio and gen stuff is completely assimilated into the body and does not infere any bonuses anymore . . no idea about SR4 though . .
i guess the same would happen to campires and others, if it's not Delta-Grade Stuff . . now, the NANO Stuff . . that's where it gets complicated i fear . .

SR3 never addressed the issue, actually. The closest it came was having people with cyberware take some extra damage with Immortal Flower wore off.

There was once a canon character from a canon adventure who had cyberware before becoming a vampire, and did not lose it.

The reason it never says anything about what happens to previous character's cyberware in SR4 is because when you turn into a vampire in SR4 you're supposed to immediately become an NPC, effectively dying. If you want to allow you're characters to turn into a vamp in play, then you should look at the infected essence rules. Infected with the Essence Loss quality, which includes all regenerators, do not lose magic when they lose essence unless their lost essence would reduce their maximum magic rating to below their current magic. An infected's max magic is equal to their essence + initiation, so even if you have 'ware, you'd still be able to start with a magic of 1 so long as your essence isn't below 1. About non-deltaware before infection, the rules don't state anything about it in SR4, but I like the rejection idea. And as a final note, infected are still human. They are sufficiently inhuman to be able to be targeted by spells that target specific infected, but a vampire can still accept 'ware as a human, or a Dzoo-no-qua as a troll, or a banshee as an elf. The reason they can only accept deltaware is because the 'ware has to be customized so that the body won't try to regenerate it, it's not anything like the sapient critter rules, which have to do with an abnormal body-type.

I can't decide if you've read Runner's Companion or not. You're veering left, right, centre and a few places I'm not sure are directions.

The information about Infected PCs becoming NPCs is on pg 289 of the main book under the infection critter power. All of the rest of the information is on page 77 of Runner's companion. I'm sorry if I've reported this information in a confusing way.

You are not supposed to become an NPC when you become a vampire by default. It is an option. Elsewhere in the book it is mentioned as a possibility (although not recommended) to remain a player and in RC it is spelled out on how, why, when and where to become a vampire - like everything else, it is not set in stone.

Right on the nose, Patrick. That actually answers ALL my questions, thank you very much. I can't believe I missed that after reading the 'Infected and Augmentation' portion /directly beneath it/.

True, but...

Max Magic is calculated like so...

Essence (rounded down to the nearest whole number) + Initiation ranks.

=====
So that mage with 6 Essence, 6 Magic, and 3 Initiation Ranks has a max possible Magic of 9 (6+3).

Make that same mage have 4 Essence, 6 Magic, and 3 Initiation Ranks, and his max possible Magic is 7 (4+3).
=====

Now let's look at Joe Cybermage who had 4.9 points of Essence, 6 Magic, and 3 Initiation Ranks. He had the misfortune of getting Essence Drained by a Vampire. Joe managed to kill the vampire and get away but not before the Vampire drained 4 points of Essence.

That leaves Joe Cybermage with 0.9 Essence. This means his Magic attribute drops to 2 (6-4). He also loses 1 Initiation Rank because the number of Initiation Ranks cannot exceed current Magic Attribute.

Stats:
Essence: 0.9
Magic : 2
Initiation: 2

On the face of it, Joe cannot advance much more magically. But Joe was smart and saved up a crapload of nuyen and favors. He pays and gets his Essence restored to 2.0.

Now... what's his max Magic attribute? 2? Remember, the max attribute is Essence + Initiation. Restoring his body back toward its natural state should put him more in tune with magic since he is already a wielder of such. The fluff goes to great lengths to stress that natural is better than augmented/manufactured. That means for Joe, his cap would 4 after getting the treatment. Since it's more than his current Magic of 2, he can then spend Karma to increase his Magic and then start Initating again.

Nothing in RAW prevents this. Also keep in mind that to do something like this is incredibly expensive. In most street level and slightly above games the mage isn't going to be rich enough to accomplish it for a very long time.

Page 89, augmentation, top left.

"Though essence points lost to implantation, Energy Drain, and addiction may be restored through Gene Therapy, Magic/Resonance points lost are never returned and reductions to the maximum magic/resonance attribute remain in effect."

Yowch... that makes Awakened vampire hunters somewhat less useful. I still like the idea of chopping vampire heads with a weapon-focus No-Dachi, though

If any vampire hunter is ever in a position to get essence drained, you have far worse problems than magic loss. For Essence Drain to work, the target has to either be totally willing or totally unable to resist. A character that is being Essence Drained is either a very close friend of the vampire, a vamp groupie, an essence drain addict, or totally bound and (in the case of a magician) blinded. Heavy sedation may or may not work because of the strong emotional connection requires; it depends on the drugs used and the circumstances.

And yes, I did say Essence Drain addict. Being Essence Drained is both extremely pleasurable and extremely addictive. A vampire hunter who is captured, drained, and somehow escapes will have, at the very least, a mild addiction to Essence Drain.