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PraetorGradivus
If a character gets one cyberlimb and puts 3 armor to it, what armor does the character get?
Does he get the full 3...
is it averaged out over 4 limbs, 4limbs&torso, 4limbd&torso&skull?
if it's averaged, round up/ round down?
Medicineman
QUOTE
Does he get the full 3...

that
and if he has two Cyberarms than 6
(it simply adds to worn armor)


QUOTE
is it averaged out over 4 limbs, 4limbs&torso, 4limbd&torso&skull?

No its not, only Attributes get averaged and Cyberarmor is not an attribute

with a simple Dance
Medicineman
PraetorGradivus
That's how I read it...but it seemed too good to be true so I thought I'd ask.

QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jan 15 2015, 05:09 AM) *
that
and if he has two Cyberarms than 6
(it simply adds to worn armor)



No its not, only Attributes get averaged and Cyberarmor is not an attribute

with a simple Dance
Medicineman

SpellBinder
There are plenty of shenanigans you can do with cybernetic implants, and stacking armor is just one of them.

By RAW, (figuring standard grade implants) a cyberdeck implant is 0.4 Essence or 4 Capacity, and an obvious cyber-hand/foot is 0.25 Essence and can hold up to 4 Capacity worth of additional implants; you can save yourself 0.15 Essence by spending an additional 5,000 and have your cyberdeck installed in a cyber foot.
PraetorGradivus
If I was GMing it, I'd say that you would use the armor of the torso normally and that the armor on limbs/head only gets used if that area is targeted by a called shot... but that's just me
Medicineman
QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Jan 15 2015, 04:36 AM) *
If I was GMing it, I'd say that you would use the armor of the torso normally and that the armor on limbs/head only gets used if that area is targeted by a called shot... but that's just me

think of Cyberarmor as improved PSP (Arm & Leg Protection ) that does not encumber because its part of Your Body and not done wink.gif

with a protected Dance
Medicineman
binarywraith
QUOTE (PraetorGradivus @ Jan 15 2015, 03:36 AM) *
If I was GMing it, I'd say that you would use the armor of the torso normally and that the armor on limbs/head only gets used if that area is targeted by a called shot... but that's just me


Yeah, but then we run into just how badly SR's damage abstraction handles limb shots, and things get really ugly. biggrin.gif
Glyph
An armored cyberarm doesn't really bother me; it's the tank builds that combine orthoskin, bone density augmentation - and two cyberhands and two cyberfeet, each with 3 points of armor. I have always found that cheesy. My quick fix house rule would be to say that you can only get the full 3 points of armor on a full limb. Partial limbs can take 2 points of armor, and a hand or foot can only take 1 point.
Medicineman
QUOTE
My quick fix house rule would be to say that you can only get the full 3 points of armor on a full limb. Partial limbs can take 2 points of armor, and a hand or foot can only take 1 point.


thats a good Houserule I'd do the same but (luckily) my fellow Players ain't that cheesy
Oh, and btw its Funny (ImO) that this issue happens each and every Edition of SR (back to 2nd Ed IIRC).
there's always the Fear that some Characterconcept is too....Mighty/invincible/Awesome for a GM to handle
but most often it's the GM who lacks ingenuity or knowledge of the Rules to handle the Char properly.
I didn't want to imply that PraetorGradivus is one of these GMs smile.gif its just that when You attend some Forums, sooner or later such a Thread appears ( even quite regularly )

with a Lucky Dance
Medicineman
Bertramn
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jan 16 2015, 08:57 AM) *
there's always the Fear that some Characterconcept is too....Mighty/invincible/Awesome for a GM to handle
but most often it's the GM who lacks ingenuity or knowledge of the Rules to handle the Char properly.


In the first few games I GMed, I forbade flamethrowers.
I do not even know why anymore, they are not even that hardcore.

Now I am like 'Bring everything and the kitchen sink guys!'.
A lot of it is just some things being temporarily perceived to be strong.

Though admittedly, treating armor plating on your hand as if it covers your whole body,
as the rules do, does not make any sense at all.
Neither do hitpoints though.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bertramn @ Jan 16 2015, 03:46 AM) *
Though admittedly, treating armor plating on your hand as if it covers your whole body,
as the rules do, does not make any sense at all.
Neither do hitpoints though.


The alternative requires large amounts of bookkeeping and is ultimately far less fun, even if it may be more realistic.
Stahlseele
Seriously, Cyberlimb Armor is the Problem?
Why not nerf magic first? That needs it much more.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 16 2015, 08:56 AM) *
Seriously, Cyberlimb Armor is the Problem?
Why not nerf magic first? That needs it much more.


Never claimed Cyberlimb Armor to be a problem... Don't really have [too many] issues with the Magic either. smile.gif
Stahlseele
Wasn't really aimed at you either. More at the generel:"ZOMG CYBER/ARMOR OP! NERF PLZ!"
Bertramn
Actually I think the armor is one of the things which make Cyberlimbs viable,
without it they would only be overpriced things of awesome.

I had a similar issue with a Dwarf Decker who was also an Infiltrator, and used a bow in combat.
He had a cyberarm, and since it was his right arm, ergo: the one he pulled back the string with,
I allowed him to use the strength of the cyberarm for shooting the bow.
The other arm does not bend, so it does not require as much strength there, I thought.

I made him use the other arms agility though, since that was the one he aimed with basically,
so it evened out.
This allowed him however to put relatively little points into attributes,
the cyber really was what was giving that character the edge.

In a straight-up fight he would have been boned though,
so I thought it fair.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 16 2015, 09:15 AM) *
Wasn't really aimed at you either. More at the generel:"ZOMG CYBER/ARMOR OP! NERF PLZ!"


No worries... smile.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 16 2015, 11:56 AM) *
Seriously, Cyberlimb Armor is the Problem?
Why not nerf magic first? That needs it much more.

Because it is the errata GothamShadowrun deserves, but not the one it needs? nyahnyah.gif
Glyph
Cyberlimb armor isn't the problem. I have no problem with the guy with two stainless steel arms having 6 armor. I do have a problem with someone having 12 armor buck naked, because he has two metal hands and two metal feet. Not because it is overpowered or anything, but because it is ridiculous, especially so with Shadowrun's abstract armor system.

Magic is hardly overpowering in 5th edition. Magic has been de-powered every edition since its high point in 3rd edition. Combat spells are balanced. Mental manipulations are relatively balanced, but still powerful simply because of what they do. Spirits are definitely overpowered. Adepts are more powerful, but that is more because augmented characters are weaker now. Unfortunately, things like background count don't balance magic very well. A flat penalty that affects low Magic ratings the same as high ones only makes the low Magic ratings unplayable - encouraging min-maxing rather than discouraging it. Plus, magic needs to be balanced right out of the core book (and background count is hardly new to the game - it definitely should have been in the core rules - although I think it was never a good idea to begin with).
Medicineman
Sorry, this is a Kind of a Doublepost (From Jan 15 & 16)

HougH!
Medicineman
Smash
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 17 2015, 02:56 AM) *
Seriously, Cyberlimb Armor is the Problem?
Why not nerf magic first? That needs it much more.


That's my feeling as well. Cyberlimbs have always been an awful mod to take on any character wanting to be serious about combat. They're only ever kind of worth it if your guy is not really built for combat but you have an awesome cyberarm for pistols. That's about it.

Given that it seems good that cyberlimbs have something going for them in 5th ed. Let's keep that going.
PraetorGradivus
42000 2Used Hands + 2Used Feet w/3armor each
14250 Used Skull w/ 3 armor
21750 Used Torso w/3 armor

58000nuyen 18AV that stacks with armor

You don't think this is even a little problematic?
SpellBinder
Shenanigans. Take a -4 DP for a Called Shot for the Vitals and I'll allow a crotch shot that'll bypass that 18 Armor in addition to the +2 DV normally granted (let's see you walk after you've had your hip blown out). And that's assuming there isn't a mental mage out there with a mind control spell at the ready.
Medicineman
@ Spellbinder
thats Great, I've got a Char with strife for Perfection and Sharpshooter , His weapon does 14P with DV-4
if he's Using Flechette Armor 16P AP+4
with 14 Dice (no Modifier because his pos Quals) he's doing apr 5 Net Hits. thats 19P , with Your Houserule 21P (if No Armor than no +4 for the Flechette) !
One Shot Kills ftw Muahahaha grinbig.gif
( Houserules to protect misuse can be misused too wink.gif and by the way Cybertorso also protects the Groin )
@Praetor
A ) You forget the Freakfactor, the Essenceloss and the Hit on Social Limits
B ) Yes , there's Problem, but I wonder if its with the Rules or the Player who obviously overstresses Min/Maxing
aka Optimizing

With a YinYang Dance
Medicineman
KarmaInferno
In game design terms, added survivability is always valued less in combat effectiveness than offensive capability.

So your character is hard to kill. So? Does your armor protect your buddies? No? Guess who gets targeted now when it becomes apparant that it's pointless to shoot at you?

Additionally, armor does not by itself allow you to sucessfully achieve target goals. It does not help speed up combats. It won't help you kill your target or get past security to grab the macguffin. At best it slows down your mean time to failure.

-k
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jan 20 2015, 01:39 AM) *
@ Spellbinder
thats Great, I've got a Char with strife for Perfection and Sharpshooter , His weapon does 14P with DV-4
if he's Using Flechette Armor 16P AP+4
with 14 Dice (no Modifier because his pos Quals) he's doing apr 5 Net Hits. thats 19P , with Your Houserule 21P (if No Armor than no +4 for the Flechette) !
One Shot Kills ftw Muahahaha grinbig.gif
After I made that post I found that Run & Gun has a bunch of rules regarding called shot locations. Shooting for the genitals imposes a -10 DP instead of -4, and the target can take a maximum of 4 damage (I believe after soak); the hip is -6 DP to hit & 3 max damage. There are added effects along with the locations, though. (R&G, 113 & 114 specifically for these locations)
QUOTE
( Houserules to protect misuse can be misused too wink.gif and by the way Cybertorso also protects the Groin )
Well, it's called a cyber torso, not a cyber body. I've always envisioned the cybered up macho types to leave their... frank & beans alone, and even with replacement legs there's a fleshy bit of vulnerability. Then there's also the neck (-8 DP to hit, 10 max damage) that isn't protected by a cyber torso or cyber skull, AFAIK.
Medicineman
QUOTE
and the target can take a maximum of 4 damage (I believe after soak)

I think its the max Damage you can do BEFORE the Victim soaks, but I'm not 100 % sure

QUOTE
Well, it's called a cyber torso, not a cyber body. I've always envisioned the cybered up macho types to leave their... frank & beans alone, and even with replacement legs there's a fleshy bit of vulnerability. Then there's also the neck (-8 DP to hit, 10 max damage) that isn't protected by a cyber torso or cyber skull, AFAIK.


I'm not sure either wink.gif biggrin.gif

with an unsure Dance
Medicineman
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