I'm not happy with SR5 SINs are presented. I think the fluff is cool. I think taxes are kinda wonky as presented and finally, I think the rules (as presented) simply do not justify the costs.

There are four types of SINs: National, Criminal, Corporate Limited, & Corporate Born

Items for discussion:
Spam: National SINs list higher rates of spam as a negative, but provide no in game effects. I think 1-2 additional points of noise equates fluff to rules well.
Social modifiers: Criminal and Corporate SINs both allude to negative social modifiers and/or prejudice. I think that both suspicious(-1)/violent(-3) as well as prejudice (-2) can possibly apply and stack.
Taxes: The idea that the corporations can always find you and extract their tax seems silly; what is the point of "being in the shadows" then? That said, if your lifestyle exceeds your taxable income, then the taxman should come calling. Also, the variable rates seem to not make sense, especially since the most karma expensive SIN has one of the lowest tax rates (doubly confounding since tax rate in the only true game affecting negative impact defined).
Records on File: Quite simply put, in the world of the SR5 matrix, a SIN seems that it should equate to the SR4 Records on File negative quality.
Fake SINs: Following on the heals of the previous point, when your fake SIN is checked, it also seems that sometimes a conflict with a real SIN should be located. This could equate to a dp and/or limit modifier to the checking device. End results could be reduction of fake SIN rating, burning of a fake SIN, SIN reported as stolen, and/or criminal charges related to the fake SIN that could possibly end with the real SIN being converted to a criminal SIN.
Karma Cost: I alluded to this above. To me, the SIN costs simply do not seem to be justified across the various SINs. For example: In game terms a Corporate Limited & Corporate Born SIN both seem to be the same except the tax rate... and the one with the higher tax rate yields a lower karma award.

As usual, I seek your thoughts about how you do or would play them, and that this be a conversation rather than an argument. ergo: In any given person plays with an option or definition, no matter how much you personally cannot imagine playing with it, that option is not "unplayable" because someone is obviously playing with it.

Thanks!

Just touching on a couple of the points for now...

Taxes: The best explanation I've seen for this is it's not necessarily the tax you are paying per the SIN, it's the tax rate is also equivalent to resources you're spending to make the SIN not link to you at all times.

Records on File: Exists as a SR5 quality in RnG.

Honestly though, I agree the karma points don't reflect well and the overall mechanical effect of anything that isn't a tax is poorly explained.

Ugh... And given the points, you can never take Corporate Born SINner and Records on File at the same time. How doubly discouraging. Especially since National SIN includes the quote, "having a legal National SIN is the character is in the system. The nation in the player character’s background has the character’s biometric data (DNA, figerprints, retinal scans) on file, and that biometric data is shared with law enforcement agencies through the Global SIN Registry. This makes it much easier to track a character should a job go sideways." (SR5, pg84)

Ok how about this:
ALL: All SINners pay 15% of declared income.
- Note: Undeclared income is not taxed, but if the lifestyle exceeds the declared income the tax man will cometh... which may result in conversion to a criminal SIN.

SINner: 5 Bonus Karma (Fluff remains the same, as per SR5, pg84-85, except in regards to taxes and cost)
- National: Due to increased spam, when this SIN is loaded, the owner is subjected to +1 or +2 noise [Spam/Static Zones, pg 231].
- Corporate (Limited or Born): With SINless, when this SIN is loaded, negative social modifiers range from Suspicious(-1) to Hostile(-3) and many times also includes prejudiced(-2) [Social Modifiers, SR5@pg140]

Criminal SINner: 10 bonus karma (Fluff remains the same, as per SR5, pg84)
- Player decides who issued the criminal SIN.
- When dealing with law enforcement or situations of high lifestyle or greater, initial negative social modifiers range from Suspicious(-1) to Hostile(-3) and many times include prejudiced(-2) [Social Modifiers, SR5@pg140]
- Law enforcement may bring in and hold a criminal SINner up to 48 hours for questioning anytime a crime is committed in their area unless an Edge(2) test is passed.

For Taxation: Why not require - explicitly - the SIN to be tied to a lifestyle, and levvy taxes based on that, with the rate dependent on the lifestyle (you know, progressive taxation and all)?

Here's a heretical thought: Why should having a SIN be a negative quality? Life without a SIN is supposed to suck badly, and even if you don't want to use your real SIN most of the time, it still gives you the option to assert the rights afforded to a SINner should the need arise at any point.

Shadowrunners may face problems if the issuer maintains records on them, but this can be represented by the Records on File quality. In all other regards, a SIN is something a lot of people would sell their firstborn for.

I think I'd rather turn that question back to you : With the very fluff seeming to support that having a SIN is already equal to "records on file" AND having records on file is a bad thing for a shadowrunner, despite the fact that most SINners would "sell their firstborn for", why should it be a good thing for a Shadowrunner to have a SIN?

Or perhaps the question should be: Do the negatives (even as proposed above) really outweigh the benefits?

At I think previous SIN threads have established that SINs which allow their holder to be traced at every step don't fit with the rest of the universe. Additionally, there is this strange "Records on File" thing, which does not really make sense if your records already are on file. So, simple solution, make having a SIN and having one's records on file (in an accessible manner) two different qualities

By the way, the Records on File quality in SR5 is really weird: You pick any number of the Big 10 to have your records, each gives you a whopping one Karma...


At least the negatives are substantial: SINless are not just illegal immigrants, they are stateless and at least de facto (whether this is de jure or not seems to depend on the author) rightless..

Given the extraterritorial nature of North America in 2075 I don't really think that income taxes make much sense at all. Taxes would almost certainly be indirect like sales tax.

It sucks for wage slaves, it's perfect for Shadowrunners. As the game is designed for Shadowrunners that's the perspective the rules take. You see that through pricing systems and how the matrix works as well.

Some thoughts...

Spam - In practice, any Shadowrunner who has an actual SIN is very rarely - if ever - going to want to actually use it. I can't even imagine a reason for a runner to load their real SIN during a game session unless they literally have no other options. Thus in practice, a Noise penalty is completely negligible, because most runners will either run a Fake SIN as needed, or just not run one at all.

Social Modifiers - Again, why are you ever loading your real SIN? In any situation where a SIN is called for, you use a Fake SIN instead. Literally the only time this would ever matter is if you're 1) in trouble with the law and 2) you're unable to use a Fake SIN for some reason. And at the point where you've been stopped by the cops and your Fake SINs are blown, a small negative social modifier is going to be the least of your troubles.

Taxes - Obviously this should only affect assets tied to the SIN. So if you're stupid enough to keep your blood money in a real-SIN bank account, or your legal address is a luxury penthouse while your legal vocation is "Janitor", or whatever, then yeah, you're gonna get audited. And if you are then either unwilling or unable to prove in a court of law that you aren't committing tax fraud (which you are), they seize your assets and your SIN becomes Criminal.

Records on File - In the Shadowrun world, data is "balkanized". Just because one party has dirt on you doesn't mean everyone does. And even when others do, the data isn't always complete and isn't always official. So if you're a citizen of Ares, that doesn't mean that Aztechnology necessarily knows anything about you - and if they do, they might not officially admit it, but have it squirreled away somewhere secret.

Now, certain databases are shared to some extent - particularly criminal databases. But none of the corps trust each other, and if they can keep information to themselves, they will do so. Now, for petty crime I doubt they care too much about sharing information. But Shadowrunners are anything but "petty". If you knock over an Aztechnology research facility, they're not gonna go tell Saeder-Krupp about it and ask them to kindly catch and hand you over if they happen to see you somewhere in SK territory, for the very obvious reason that they will never see you again and anything you learned will be tortured out of you, also never to be seen again.

Fake SINs - Why would using a Fake SIN cause a conflict with your real one? That doesn't make any logical sense. There's no reason why a Fake SIN should lead the system to find your real one. All the information on the Fake SIN matches fake information in the database.

Your real SIN isn't going to have the same data as your fake one. Obviously clerical information like your name and whatnot is going to differ. And the stored biometric data on the fake SIN is almost certainly not accurate compared to your real biometrics - but that's okay, because the database entry for your fake SIN expects to see that fake data. The only aspect of a SIN that might match between your real and fake one is your picture, although that seems unlikely. And even if they did match, it's not as though a SIN lookup operates by searching the entire database of images and trying to find a match via facial recognition software or something.

Karma Cost - A Corporate Limited SIN is... well... Limited. Any job you hold with the corp has an automatic glass ceiling, and you don't have the privileges a Corporate Born enjoys - including the lower tax rate. Basically you're not as trusted by the corp as someone born into the culture.

The thing to remember about these qualities, however, is that in the Shadows they can get you killed. If you're a Corporate Limited SINner, that means you weren't JUST a wageslave scraping by - you actually were valuable enough to the corp for them to give you corporate citizenship. This also means that other corps consider you valuable too, and will consider "extracting" you for what you know. Plus, if your SINless compatriats find out about your corp affiliations, it's gonna be real bad.

For a Corporate Born SIN, you're even more valuable to other corporations for extraction purposes, and even more in bed with the devil in the eyes of the SINless. Even worse, the CB SIN specifically states that you somehow fell from grace in your home corp - you essentially have no allies anywhere except those you hide your past from and the very few who will accept you in spite of it. It's a definite step up in terms of how rough your life is, and the costs totally offset the extra Karma.

~Umi

This is the only part I disagree with. Higher rating scanners check higher levels of biometrics for a match. Fingerprints at lower levels, up to blood tests from what I remember. Having incorrect information on a fake SIN means it will be easily seen through. You'd fake the name and address so you can ditch the identity safely when the fake is found out, but you have to give them enough data on you to match you to the fake SIN when it is checked.

The "records on file" costs (1 karma) sound like they have some information on you from a crime on their turf as part of an investigation, but not enough to find you. You'd have to screw up again to get a criminal SIN (or a bullet) from the deal, but it isn't a big deal yet. Less information than a SIN, less likely to be shared with other nations/Corps, but no legal rights like the SIN gives you.

What you're not recognizing is that a Fake SIN has fake parameters already stored. It's not like every time you order something off Amazon, they send someone over with a fingerprinting kit and a retinal scanner. Your SIN stores digital "records" of your biometrics, not actual up to date readings. And if you have a Fake SIN, those biometrics can be anything you want - regardless if they match your real biometrics.

It's like a present day ID card - just because your Fake ID says you're blood type O+ doesn't mean that you really have to be. All that matters is that what's on the ID card and what's in the database match.

So back to SINs. Your fake SIN has a stored retinal scan, fingerprints, blood sample, et cetera. None of them match your actual biometrics. That doesn't matter, because the SIN database has an entry with your fake name and all the fake biometrics assigned to it. The cops (or whoever) punch in the fake data on one end, it shows up as a match on the other end. Unless they check the stored biometrics of the SIN against your physical biometrics (which would be a REALLY high security thing to do!), they're not gonna be suspicious.

...unless your ID says you're a little elderly ork woman when actually you're a tall and quite male troll in the prime of life, or something obvious like that.

~Umi

I agree, except for the issued SIN, which automatically gets "records on file" against it.

I disagree. Governments like taxes and the only thing they like more than taxes... is more taxes. Besides, when they can monitor the bank accounts linked to your SIN, taxing you is too easy.

Not according to most character sheets.

That is easy: multiple matches on biometric data if the fake SIN is R6.

That is not correct. One key difference in a R5 and R6 fake SIN (SR5, pg367) is that a R5 fake SIN biometrics are for another person. Surely there are enough SINless to have get biometrics for a SINless. Of course, if that same person's biometrics are used on multiple R5 SINs are they are issued a criminal SIN, then you are back to conflict.

In the end though, the one topic I'd like to continue on is: This I agree with... taking us back to square #1, where having a real SIN isn't much of a negative quality, at least as far as game effects. Any thoughts on justifying the points?

Say I work for in Seattle for an A rated corp and have to pay income tax but my mate Steve, works for Ares, lives on Ares territory but is still basically a member of Seattle society. doesn't this give me a pretty massive reason to go work for a triple A and spend my money on their soil rather than UCAS? I'd imagine this is something UCAS isn't to thrilled about.



I've always found the problem insurmountable. Leave one hair, or fingerprint somewhere during a run (or present your face to a camera and /sigh have facial recognition software be the norn in your campaign) and it's guaranteed to ping your real SIN regardless of how many fake ones you were pinging at the time.

This is why I feel pretty strongly that 5th edition Shadowrun should be the dystopic future of 1989's divergent history, rather than one based on what we have today. Criminal analysis otware ruins runs otherwise.

Pardon me, but I thought that high rating SIN checks could determine if provided biometrics match a given SIN. I don't think they should search for all matches globally.

I could see law enforcement having access to that kind of thing though.

Wait... SR5 changed it so R6 SINs use your own biometrics? Why in the world would you want that?

A Fake SIN is inherently disposeable. The entire point of it is that if your cover gets blown, you just toss it (after escaping from whatever mess the failed SIN check might land you in) and your real identity is still a mystery. Tying a Fake SIN to your actual biometrics is so utterly stupid as to be mind boggling. There's absolutely no rational reason for it.

Maybe there might be some bizarre edge cases where you need to infiltrate some super high security area, and they require active biometric scans which they check against a supplied SIN which is then checked against a remote database. (Who even does that?) But at that point, you honestly should just be considering other options - like bypassing security entirely, or using the legitimate access of someone else. It makes so much more sense to just use the various tech options for faking your own biometrics to match the ones stored on a Fake SIN, than it does to make the Fake SIN's stored biometrics match your real ones.

~Umi

Having any kind of biometrics tied to a SIN would make any rating of SIN completely useless. Any rating of SIN would be blown by a simple thumbprint check. And if they matched your real biometrics, like a Rating 6 is supposed to, all it would take is running a check on some blood or a fingerprint left behind at a crime scene or whatever and then all your Rating 6 SINs would pop up, and suddenly you'd be screwed because you bought the best SINs available.

The only way the system could function and have fakes is if there were no information in a SIN beyond what you'd see on a Drivers License today.

I don't get why I'm having such a hard time explaining this to people. Lemme try again.

You use your SIN for most everything, from renting apartments down to buying a soykaf. And because they get used constantly by everyone everwhere, it would super inconvenient for all parties involved to take fresh biometric readings of every individual transaction. Hence why SINs store a record of the pertinent biometric readings.

Compare to present day IDs. If you show an ID that lists your blood type, they don't prick your finger to take a sample for comparison. The fact that you have an ID that appears valid and which lists your blood type as O+ is good enough for most everyone who might ever care to ask. Short of the validity of the ID itself being called into question, they're never going to even think to doubt what it tells them.

SINs work the same way. You go to buy a soykaf or rent an apartment, all they care about is that the SIN appears valid. They aren't going to have you submit to a retinal scan or get fingerprinted. Just like in real life, you simply hand over your ID - the only difference here is a SIN is a digital ID, not a physical one.

The only time you're ever going to have to submit to fresh biometric scans is in ultra secure areas where it is actually feasible to stop and scan each person going in. And in most such cases, they probably aren't going to be comparing the results to a SIN anyway, but rather to their own security databases. If you're trying to sneak into a corporate research lab, they aren't going to want to see your SIN. They're going to want you to swipe your security keycard and submit to things like retinal and voice scans - a SIN never even enters the equation.

~Umi

There's also the matter of how the SIN database goes about looking up a SIN.

What it doesn't do is start with the SIN's biometrics and compare them to every single SIN on record. That would be stupid, taking up tons of time and resources, and pulling up tons of overlapping data.

No, the way a database works is you tell it where to look, and then it compares your notes to the notes it has in that location. You tell the system that you are "Number 4115", so it pulls up the file in slot 4115 and says, "Please prove you are who you say you are." So then you tell the system that your name is Dave, you're a Scorpio, and you work as a plumber.

At this point, the system compares what you tell it to the information in slot 4115 - and not to any other entries whatsoever. It doesn't pull up every single person named Dave, every single Scorpio, and every single plumber for comparison. All the system cares about is that the file for slot 4115 agrees with what you're saying. If it does agree, the database says, "Ah, hello Dave!" and you're done. If it doesn't agree, the database delivers an error and you're in trouble.

The only time the SIN database is going to be scoured from top to bottom looking for matches is when someone lacks a SIN. Since there's no SIN telling the system where to look, you have to feed it whatever information you have and try to narrow down the possible matches. So if the cops collect a blood sample from a crime scene, they can scan the database in full to narrow down their list of suspects to only those who match the blood, that sort of thing*.

But if you're running a Fake SIN, there's absolutely no reason why the system would compare the information you supply it with every single potential match - it's just going to compare it to the data entry it claims to be. It's like a username and password on a computer. The system doesn't compare the password you enter against every single username to see if it matches any of them - it only compares it to the username you specify. SINs are the same way, they just have multiple "passwords" in the form of biometric records.

~Umi

* (This is why being SINless is so important. If you don't have a SIN, they can't match any biometrics they collect to your real name and identity, because it simply isn't in the system. But if you do have a SIN, any forensic data you leave behind can eventually narrow down the possibilites until they find you, because you actually are in the system to be found.)

Great posts, Umidori. On your point:

I think this would be kind of a big deal and only doable by entities like the issuer, law enforcement, and the Corporate Court. I don't even think that issuers have access to everything and are limited to doing reverse lookups on SINs they themselves issued.

How is this for a run idea? Although the data stores themselves are ultra-secure, someone hires you to break into a less-secure location to access a data terminal able to perform such a search. The Johnson has biometric data and knows who the issuer is, so the runners have to break into an office building to data search the issuer's SIN data store and get out with the possible matches. And the runners are shocked at who it is...

It seems to me that there is a fundamental disconnect between how the 5th Ed core book describes fake SINs and its description of how SINs get verified.

The fluff spells out what the biometrics stored with a SIN are: fingerprints, retina scan and DNA. These are all things that can be tested, two of them in a few seconds using technology that exists today.

When talking about fake SINS,the fluff never mentions linking the holder's real biometric data to a fake SIN. Instead it describes linking data from a real person similar to the holder, but not the holder's actual data. Even a level 6 fake SIN uses someone else's biometrics.

But at the bottom of page 368, the table for levels of SIN validation says that rating 5 SIN verification includes "biometrics tested against sample". I have trouble reading that any other way than 'They check your fingerprint (or retina) to see if it matches the one linked to the fake SIN'. Level 6 is even clearer: "all possible verification, multiple biometric samples must match".

But if that were true, then there would not be a fake SIN in existence that could pass a level 5 verification process. Certainly nothing would pass level 6.

So either

• a rating 5 or 6 fake SIN should use the holder's real biometrics to allow it to pass level 5+ verification (the fluff about fake SINs is wrong)
• a rating 5 or 6 fake SIN uses a third parties biometrics, but includes some way to fool biometric validation (nothing in the fluff describes this)
• No level of SIN verification should ever check your biometrics (the table on page 368 is wrong, or poorly worded.)
• No fake SIN can ever pass higher then level 4 validation (The rules for testing fake SINS are wrong)

I can't think of an option that does not require a house rule or for part of the fluff to be changed.

SR5, Fake SINs, Fake Sin Details (table), p. 367:

Rating 5 "valid biometrics for another person (with samples)"

Rating 6 "valid biometrics with samples"

This could be interpreted to mean that rating 6 SINs have the bearer's real biometrics in the Global SIN Registry. I'm not sure why a person would need samples of their own biological material though.

One thing, to me it reads that only basic information is part of the SIN itself and the extra information, such as biometrics, are kept in the issuer's data stores and the GSINR. It needs to be queried remotely.

Slightly off topic, should technology exist to change a person's DNA in a way to fool tests? Just like changing a retina or fingerprint.

In real life, you hand over a document with a variety of features which assure that the item you just handed over is a genuine ID and not something you printed out yourself. If what you "hand" over is nothing but an alphanumeric string, the correct comparison would to somebody asking your name and simply trusting that what you tell him is the truth.

Okay, I think we've found part of the disconnect.

When you verify a Fake SIN, the Rating of your verification system is representative of how much information it looks to match. Basically the higher the verification Rating, the more data you have to have match for the system to accept the SIN.

Compare with the real world today. Most of us use bank cards, I'm sure. Ever notice how sometimes you swipe your card and they want a PIN, but other times you swipe the card and they want your zip code instead, and at other times they don't want either? How for some transactions you need to provide a signature, and for others you don't? Not all transactions require the same degree of verification.

So why is this? Why not ask for every possible bit of pertinent data before allowing the transaction? Why don't you have to enter your PIN, and your zip code, and your SSN, and provide a signature, and show a valid government issued ID, et cetera? Because time is money, and these transactions happen every second of every day, millions and millions of them constantly flowing through the system. Unless you have some sort of valid reason to require all that extra data, you're just wasting everyone's time/money.

SIN verification systems work the same way. If you stop at a gas station to fill up and grab a slushee, they're not going to have a high rating verification system, and it's not going to check very much data - and that means it isn't going to request your biometrics for comparison.

Moreover, what the rules are telling us about Rating 5 and 6 verification systems isn't that they require you to be fingerprinted and retinal scanned when using your SIN. What they're telling us is that for any verification system Rating 4 or below, the biometric records stored on your SIN are never even accessed for comparison. A Rating 5 means that it checks at least some biometric records in the database against their recorded "sample" counterparts stored in the SIN - while a Rating 6 means every piece of data in the database file must match every single detail provided by the SIN.

So long as you have a high enough quality Fake SIN, it is entirely possible to provide a total match on all details, because the higher the quality of the SIN, the more thorough the SIN database hack that created it was in making it look legitimate. A cheap Rating 2 Fake SIN simply isn't going to cut it, because it's only designed to be used against low quality verification systems that don't check as many details.

~Umi

This interpretation is new to me. That would mean that the SIN itself holds a large amount of information, and that actually testing a biological sample doesn't happen, even in the most thorough checks. I think this is a pretty big hole in how high-rating SIN checks are described.

You have to examine the system from the point of view of legitimate usage.

Millions of people use real SINs every single day for completely legitimate purposes. People are legally required to have a SIN, and they're required to present them for everything from basic purchases to renting apartments to voting. So if you're a company or a government asking someone for their SIN, you're not doing so because you suspect it might be fake - you're literally just doing fundamental bookkeeping and accounting.

SINs are official, government and corp issued documents. They have an inherent authority invested in them, and so long a person believes a SIN is real, they have no reason to doubt the information it countains. Since Fake SINs are custom built to check out as "real" SINs (assuming no mishaps), there's literally no reason to question the information the SIN contains. After all, it ostensibly came straight from the government or the corps, and is a valid, official document whose accuracy is not to be called into question without solid reason.

Compare to the modern day with extant government issued ID cards. If you supply a copy of your Drivers License for some government paperwork, they compare the information supplied by that copy to their records. Unless there is some sort of discrepancy, they aren't going to question anything. The certainly aren't going to take a blood sample just to make sure that you really are O+ like your card says.

So yes, SIN verification has a big "hole" in it - any sufficiently good fake SIN is indistinguishable from a real one. But that's the entire point! It is entirely by design! The SIN system is only as good as the verification system you're using, and even the best verification is going to often fail to spot a perfect fake. The same is just as true about present day fake IDs.

~Umi

You are mixing up two different aspects here, namely verifying that a given SIN has not been crafted in some dark basement and verifying that the person presenting that SIN is indeed the legitimate holder. What you describe works nicely for the former, but does nothing to prevent somebody from using the SIN of somebody else.

In case of physical IDs, you get a certain amount of trust from the simple fact that somebody carries the physical token. But a SIN is just a number and not a plastic card.

Ok, so it's matching against a database. If I go into 7-11 and use Pete Jones's SIN, the SIN verifying thing is going to check that my information matches against Pete Jones's to see if it matches. Where is it getting the information from me to verify it against the database?

This thread has been great to spark the creative juices. Several points stand out to me following this (and the previous) SIN threads:
- A SIN with a rating less than the SIN verification (SR5, pg 367-368) should always fail the test.
- Despite all the fake SINs, stolen SINs, common genetics from identical twins, clones, genetic modifications, covert manipulation of the systems by spy agencies for their agents, etc, etc, etc the book rules state that failed SIN check always automatically burns a SIN.
- Math will save your life (and your SIN). Even a system that is 99.9999% perfect that is performing 10 billion SIN checks per day experiences 1 million errors.

I'm making one basic change to the SIN checking rules [SR5, pg386]
This leaves the player (and GM) asking two questions:
1) When do I expect to run into the various ratings of checking systems?
2) Given that failure rate, it doesn't seem fitting that the SIN is immediately burned, especially given the higher costs in SR5.

I'm hoping to elicit the thoughts of other Dumpshockers for #1. For number #2, I have done two things. First, from an earlier thread, I adopted sliding scale of costs for SINs and second I think that burning a SIN should be a two step process.


So what happens when a SIN is flagged as fake? I'm still thinking through this part. Here are the thoughts I have so far.
- If the SIN is flagged during the commission of a crime, that would add a level of priority towards burning the fake SIN.
- There should probably be a window of opportunity for a hacker (or at least a fake ID specialist) to manipulate the system, injecting data that in some way invalidates the flagging and causes it to be reversed.
- The rules should be pretty simple, probably involve a dice roll, and might simply track the number of flaggings as a negative dice pool modifier or to increase the threshold (a fake SIN never lasts forever).

Thoughts?

Isnt that a bit drastic? It means that you're never really safe from getting your SIN screwed over at the Stuffer Shack

Not if you rule that a stuffershack SIN check is always rating 1.

Should SINS with a rating greater than the scanner get to automatically win?

No, then a roll is applied.

But why should FakeSINs with a rating lower than the checking device automatically get burnt? After all, you acknowledged that even a good system makes errors. So even a DR6 checking device (12 dice) could have a bad day and leave your rating 1 FakeSIN intact. Though I wouldn't bet on it.

Although in the spirit of empowering players, I would like to see a rule, where players have to roll with their FakeSIN against the checking device. Though that would need diffrent mechanics entirely.

I think you didn't read my conversation above.. or perhaps I wasn't clear...? Allow me to elaborate: Failure does not equal burnt. Failure equals flagged. (a step in between good & burned) If failure meant burnt, given the errors in the system, real SINs would be getting burnt all the time as well.



Let me explain why I propose the house rule of "A fake SIN rated below the rating of the check automatically fails".

A rating 1 fake SIN is defined as "Age, nationality, & sex does not match; no supporting data."
A rating 2 check is defined as "Basic redundancy check on the number and vital statistics"
If the check says you are a 42 years female troll and you are a 25 year old male dwarf, that is an obvious failure.

A rating 2 fake SIN is defined as " Sex matches. Age & nationality close; no supporting data."
A rating 3 check is defined as "Redundancy check on number and statistics; query for external data attached to SIN"
When there is no data in external databases to check, an obvious failure occurs.

A rating 3 fake SIN is defined as "Sex, age & nationality matches; supporting data, no biometrics, conflicts in external data."
A rating 4 SIN check is defined as "Verify all vital statistics; external data checked for obvious conflicts; biometric must be present"
By definition, conflicts exist and are found. Obvious failure.

The very rules as written as in conflict. This is all easily resolved by injecting a state between good & burned of flagged. Flagged means the system has flagged it to be rechecked to be burned. Additional processing must occur. Perhaps a functionary must review the data to escalate the SIN to being burned.

Does that help elaborate where the conversation is taking me?

Then assume a Classy Cabin, or any other place which is fancy/secure enough to have an R3 verifier.

I mean it's not that the rule doesn't work, but it seems a bit harsh on the players

I think what is also tripping up some people is how a rating 1 fake SIN is defined as "Age, nationality, & sex does not match; no supporting data."

That basically means that a R1 is a total crapshoot, its the equivalent of having found someone's SIN laying on the ground and you picked it up to get some booze without having a clue what was even on it.

Anyone dealing in R1 are basically scrapping the bottom of the virtual barrel and fall into the category of the stupid or vulnerable (someone who needs something NOW or can't afford better or just wasn't paying attention when they handed over the cred to that guy at the back of the bar.)

Even a cheap fake would be a R2 at the very least as you would want the item to be at least the right gender and the other stats close enough to not get you shot out of hand from a cursory glance by a guard.

I would disagree and say that you buy what you can afford and what is available. There are simply times a rating 1 is either (1) all that is currently at hand or (2) all you can afford... even if in NPC.
It might be fair to say, "It's silly for a professional shadowrunner to have less than a r2 fake SIN".

I would counter that injecting the "flagged" versus immediately burnt mitigates this. I just started in a campaign where the GM is being very strict about SINs, fake SINs, and the various zones. I like how this makes our team act like shadowrunners and stick to lower rated areas except when working and being cautious about mixing in higher rated zones. YMMV

point taken

I think I still don't get, if that is how you play it or how you interpret the rules. Because if 1), than that is the choice of you and your group and I have nothing to add. But if 2), then I disagree - at least with regards to fake SINs. The core rulebook (p. 364) clearly states that a check against a fake SIN can have three outcomes: Fewer successes than the fake's rating (pass), as many successes as the rating (flagged, operator should investigate further) and more than the rating, which leads to a burnt SIN. A burnt SIN automatically fails all future tests, with a possibility that it might work for some time in another country.

I completely agree, though that real SINs should not - as implied - never fail. But as long as SINs are not covered better in a future book (e.g. DT), that would be up to the GM.

I think that's the wrinkle. I am wanting to re-invision SIN rules. I love the concept. I love most of the fluff. I'm less than happy with the current rules as written... We have a group of four rotating Shadowrun GM's and we want a cleaner set of SIN rules. We're trying to change as little as possible, but we just don't like a few areas in the implementation. Our intention is for constancy, simplicity, and balance.

In that case, I'm looking forward to see, what you're coming up with. I agree that many things could be done better. First and foremost a decision, if the rules are supposed to be "abstract" or "detailed"m and should support rather a simulationist game-play or put an emphasis on narration.

I, too, love the universe and the fluff (well, most of it), but SR-rules and sourcebooks have had a tendency towards extreme geardo-ism and "wow that'll be cool, let's make it a rule"-mania I've seen in any franchise.

Still playing it for most of my RPG-life, though.

Our review of the SIN rules started with our SR4 games, which have not fully converted over to SR5. Stolen SINs came out of a game we played in my campaign. As we began to look at SR5, the increased cost of SINs rubbed us wrong. Worse, it causes us to look deeper at rules we'd pretty much glossed over in the past. Once the clean up began, it grew legs of its own.

Rules can always be abstracted. The real trick can they be done in such a way that the detail does not slow down game play?

I played SR1 when some friends brought it back from GenCon and got us all hooked.

Having recently acquired a passport, I can see some equivalencies. So for my passport not only did I need to fill out the forms, provide info on my parents, provide ID, the one that caught my attention was: Not only did I need to provide my birth certificate, it needed to be the original (with the embossed seal) AND it was submitted as part of my application packet. So for a period of time, I was without my actual birth certificate, until they mailed it back. But Passport was a few weeks later.

I get the example of convenience. For the purposes of my passport-getting, it would have been a security check much higher than 'show copy of birth certificate' and much much higher than "Show ID".

But therein potentially lies the flaw/weakness. If you HAVE a passport (or a really good fake one) the assumption could be that your other secondary documentation is correct, because there's no way you could have gotten (the passport) without that secondary documentation being accurate.

I think the only way a real sin should effect you is it may interfere with your fake sins and potentially give some ammo of they have some forensics. Most of the time they will just run your fake sin it passes or fails and you move on as appropriate. Now I auto pass all fake sins for most things. Just having a sin is all they are looking for. You get pulled over or need to go through a security check then I run the test. I let con or other situation appropriate skills be used as a teamwork style test. It is comparing the data to you and a operator is making the decision so how you act will effect the level of scrutiny.

Having said that there is the other side of testing sins. If it's a high security check or suspicion is aroused they will check you against the system in addition to your sin against you. Where I work we ask for original documents for some services. So a original birth certificate or passport. As tech advances we are moving towards electronic verification. Let's say Rob Smith is applying and the electronic system comes back something is up. Well we look at him, usually any original documents clarify it. Like he is Robert not Rob or the country of origin uses the more standard day, month, year system instead of our month, day, year and someone flipped the numbers out of ignorance. Other times it comes back yeah his SSN is in use by it's real owner. We don't do anything but adjust aid levels appropriately, but in SR that means you failed a security check or whatever. Basically I see real sins as flags when people do more thorough checks. The first time they check your credentials at a high security location or you botched a check when pulled over for speeding they don't check just the sin you present. They check you vs the system. Like today I expect fake id to be common enough that people don't just check it. They run your prints or whatever.