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Voran
looking at the most recent version of tac-net, I was wondering, would it be possible to mix sets?

Like say your decker or guy with the best link runs Tacnet level 2, but everyone else has the commercial grade Level 1 stuff. Is the primary system the big cost, plus slave nodes, or does everyone have to pay the ungodly costs for each individual set. So EVERYONE drops at least half a million for their own set, etc?

Rules mechanics aside (and lack of real building rules), couldn't you just sort of duplicate the process by getting everyone a customized commlink strictly for the makeshift tacnet you want to run, with your main rigger/decker running the center? Should it even cost half a million?
hermit
Took me a while to figure that out, too. It goes like this: Someone pas ungodly costs for a Pee-Tag of desired level (such as the 'hobby-level' entry package for some 600K), and can then hook up your buddies to it (and your drones, if you pay extra premium or one of the even more ungodly expensive sets).

QUOTE
Should it even cost half a million?

Of course not. The boni aren't even remotely worth it.
Sengir
The errata for R&G is hard to find but it exists, and brings down the costs to a more reasonable level:
http://cdn.shadowruntabletop.com/wp-conten...E_RG-Errata.pdf

Level I: Avail 12R, cost 115,000
Level II: Avail 18R, cost 325,000
Level III: Avail 18F, cost 855,000
Voran
Ooh, that's a little better. Though I wonder what the 'real' costs would be not including profit-markup. I mean, you already have AR that lets you play augmented video games while running around in your meatsuit, it shouldn't be that hard to set up a customized version that provides the same 'bonuses' like the ability to flag friendlies and hostiles, status screens, etc.
Smash
I must admit that I hated them so much in 4th ed that I just pretended they didn't exist in the new edition. Do they still give you bonus dice to everything?
Voran
QUOTE (Smash @ Apr 19 2015, 07:24 PM) *
I must admit that I hated them so much in 4th ed that I just pretended they didn't exist in the new edition. Do they still give you bonus dice to everything?


Sort of.

Tho I am still trying to figure out how they manage to give you bonuses (at higher levels) to...melee combat. Its not like you get VATS system ala fallout.
Voran
Seriously tho what would a good makeshift version entail:

Using my previous AR example (virtual shooter in the real world) presumably the thing functions the way it does because players all have the necessary game-program. It probably doesn't let you engage people without the 'same game'.

On the other hand, it'd be a good potential starting point for personal status info that you can share with other team-mates. Though it'd be not rpg stats but your actual biomonitor results. As such, you can probably easily tag friendlies with the same stuff as 'friendly'. Then you'd need some sort of image recognition stuff so you can tag nonplayers and enemies that don't 'have the game'. I tag that security guy as a hostile, and it gets recognized on your end too, etc. I can imagine this area being the bigger cost-sink, so that the system knows when you're designating a person, which person, or things that aren't people like "that specific drone" or whatever.

An image link and some sort of camera/input system, assuming you're not using your own cyberware senses to give your POV to others in the link. If you're running smartlinks you probably could include your own readied weapon/weapon status info. Obviously you'd a verbal or textual communication.

without really high end gear I don't think you can easily incorporate 'hitpoint/status' stuff on targets. Unless you've hacked their biomonitors or something.

Plus all this is stuff that isn't easily identifiable as a P-tac system in the event someone rummages through your stuff. It looks like an AR game.

edit: reading stuff again, huh, alot of that is already covered in the basic AR. It should be relatively easy to tag anything you want and discriminate between those tags.
Sengir
QUOTE (Voran @ Apr 20 2015, 12:19 AM) *
I mean, you already have AR that lets you play augmented video games while running around in your meatsuit, it shouldn't be that hard to set up a customized version that provides the same 'bonuses' like the ability to flag friendlies and hostiles, status screens, etc.

I think you are touching on part of the problem here: As presented, Tacnets were always a very focused on mechanics, users get plus X to action Y and therefore it costs Z. But IMO the real value of tacnets is less in getting +1 on Automatics and more in simply knowing where the rest of the team is and what they are doing.
Tacnets give a reason why the PCs can use the same "omniscient observer" knowledge their players have, and also solve the age-old question of "did the rigger in his van hear that conversation?" All characters can hear an important conversation, access the feed from the overwatch drone, see the position of teammates and possibly highlighted enemies, know the health (biomonitors) and ammo count (smartlinks) of the team...basically, the HUD you have in Payday (e.g. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file.../?id=428370842) or other co-op games.
Voran
Heh complete with spam talk in the chat windows smile.gif
Smash
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 21 2015, 01:12 AM) *
I think you are touching on part of the problem here: As presented, Tacnets were always a very focused on mechanics, users get plus X to action Y and therefore it costs Z. But IMO the real value of tacnets is less in getting +1 on Automatics and more in simply knowing where the rest of the team is and what they are doing.
Tacnets give a reason why the PCs can use the same "omniscient observer" knowledge their players have, and also solve the age-old question of "did the rigger in his van hear that conversation?" All characters can hear an important conversation, access the feed from the overwatch drone, see the position of teammates and possibly highlighted enemies, know the health (biomonitors) and ammo count (smartlinks) of the team...basically, the HUD you have in Payday (e.g. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/file.../?id=428370842) or other co-op games.


Agreed. We tend to assume that they have this anyway through their comlinks when playing anyway which is why I never liked the mechanics in 4th ed as tyhe aonly value it provided was +1/3 sensors or whatever it was.
Voran
So we find ourselves rolling back to the conclusion, "Hey, the actual value of this can be measured in giving OOC PC knowledge to the IC characters, which can be done without dumping 100k+ credits, and mechanical dice pool benefits are irrelevant in light of those costs."

And in its way, even with the adjusted cheaper costs (as errata'd) players would likely be able to find better things to drop 100k on.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Smash @ Apr 20 2015, 03:42 PM) *
Agreed. We tend to assume that they have this anyway through their comlinks when playing anyway which is why I never liked the mechanics in 4th ed as tyhe aonly value it provided was +1/3 sensors or whatever it was.


Kind of difficult to hate on something if you cannot even be bothered to know the rules... smile.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Smash @ Apr 21 2015, 12:42 AM) *
Agreed. We tend to assume that they have this anyway through their comlinks when playing anyway

In that case there's obviously little to sell to players wink.gif


QUOTE
which is why I never liked the mechanics in 4th ed as tyhe aonly value it provided was +1/3 sensors or whatever it was.

Official 4th Ed rules: "+[Members-2] to whatever you GM is OK with" biggrin.gif
Sengir
QUOTE (Voran @ Apr 20 2015, 10:15 PM) *
Heh complete with spam talk in the chat windows smile.gif

I just felt reminded of this classic biggrin.gif

And I agree that 100k too much...maybe the "coop HUD" should indeed be declared a free function possible with every commlink, but in that case the fluff should also reflect the naturalness of using it, and how lonely and screwed a runner is once cut off from it.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sengir @ Apr 21 2015, 01:24 PM) *
In that case there's obviously little to sell to players wink.gif



Official 4th Ed rules: "+[Members-2] to whatever you GM is OK with" biggrin.gif


Max of +4 (with 6 members in the Tacnet).
Smash
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 21 2015, 10:47 PM) *
Kind of difficult to hate on something if you cannot even be bothered to know the rules... smile.gif


I was never the person setting them up because a usable matrix in 4th Ed was a unicorn.

I just remember how many sensors I had on and then someone wuold tell me I had extra dice for some reason. Seemed lame to me.

Perhaps there was more value in it to that like friend or foe IDs, etc but it's not a big stretch to be able to implement that sort of stuff on the fly in AR anyway.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Smash @ Apr 21 2015, 02:44 PM) *
I was never the person setting them up because a usable matrix in 4th Ed was a unicorn.

I just remember how many sensors I had on and then someone wuold tell me I had extra dice for some reason. Seemed lame to me.

Perhaps there was more value in it to that like friend or foe IDs, etc but it's not a big stretch to be able to implement that sort of stuff on the fly in AR anyway.


Fair Enough...
There was indeed more to it... smile.gif
X-Kalibur
Seems to me that knowing how stuff that gives you bonuses work would be beneficial. Such as the fact that aside from getting +x dice you are receiving and able to use every sensory channel tied into the 'net in order to get more information on your situation. As a quick and dirty example, maybe from another PoV being fed in you are able to tell with your expertise in explosives that your opposition has rigged something up. But, like all things matrix, it requires proper understanding on all sides to work well and not be just another source of DP mods.
Voran
I could see something like, "because everyone has the ability to see each other's POV, that also allows them to make perception checks on those other people's POV." "Hey, wait a minute, X-cal, look down and to the left again. I think I see a tripwire.."

etc etc.

Though likely only the decker running at faster than normal perceptual speed (did they get rid of that?) would be able to pull it off.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Voran @ Apr 22 2015, 01:40 AM) *
Though likely only the decker running at faster than normal perceptual speed (did they get rid of that?) would be able to pull it off.


They got rid of that... Though with the right PQ or Adept ability, Perceptive rolls can become Free Actions (for anyone taking the appropriate PQ/Adept ability).
X-Kalibur
I'd make a good argument for the attention co-processor as well.
Sengir
QUOTE (Voran @ Apr 22 2015, 09:40 AM) *
I could see something like, "because everyone has the ability to see each other's POV, that also allows them to make perception checks on those other people's POV." "Hey, wait a minute, X-cal, look down and to the left again. I think I see a tripwire.."

Well, that is something which can indeed be handled by giving a +X to Perception rolls. But in general, less numbers, more "you can see/here/do this thanks to a tacnet". Like Eclipse Phase does it for example:


Tactical networks are specialized software programs used by teams that benefit from the sharing of tactical data. They are commonly used by sports teams, security outfits, military units, AR gamers, gatecrashers, surveyors, miners, traffic control, scavengers, and anyone else who needs a tactical overview of a situation. Firewall teams regularly take advantage of them.
In game terms, tacnets provide specialized software skills and tools to a muse
[personal AI assistant] or AI, as best fits their tactical needs. These tools link together and share and analyze data between all of the participants in the network, creating a customizable entoptics [ARO in Shadowrun parlace] display for each user that summarizes relevant data, highlights interactions and priorities, and alerts the user to matters that require their attention.
  • Maps: Tacnets assemble all available maps and can present them to the user with a bird’s eye view or as a three-dimensional interactive, with distances between relevant features readily accessible. The AI or muse can also plot maps based on sensory input, breadcrumb positioning systems (p. 332), and other data. Plotted paths and other data from these maps can be displayed as entoptic images or other AR sensory input (e.g., a user who should be turning left might see a transparent red arrow or feel a tingling sensation on their left side).
  • Positioning: The exact position of the user and all other participants are updated and mapped according to mesh positioning and GPS. Likewise, the position of known people, bots, vehicles, and other features can also be plotted according to sensory input.
  • Sensory Input: Any sensory input available to a participating character or device in the network can be fed into the system and shared. This includes data from physical senses, portable sensors, smartlink guncams, XP [Simsense] output, etc. This allows one user to immediately call up and access the sensor feed of another user.
  • Communications Management: The tacnet maintains an encrypted link between all users and stays wary both of participants who drop out or of attempts to hack or interfere with the communications link.
  • Smartlink/Weapon Data: The tacnet monitors the status of weapons, accessories, and other gear via the smartlink interface or wireless link, bringing damage, shortages, and other issues to the user’s attention.
  • Indirect Fire: Members of a tacnet can provide targeting data to each other for purposes of indirect fire (p. 195).
  • Analysis: The muses and AIs participating in the tacnet are bolstered with skill software and databases that enable them to interpret incomingdata and sensory feeds. Perhaps the most useful aspect of tacnets, this means that the muse/ AI may notice facts or details individual users are likely to have overlooked. For example, the tacnet can count shots fired by opponents, note when they are likely running low, and even analyze sensory input to determine the type of weaponry and ammunition being used. Opponents and their gear can also be scanned and analyzed to note potential weaknesses, injuries, and capabilities. If sensor contact with an opponent is lost, the last known location is memorized and potential movement vectors and distances are displayed. Opponent positioning can also identify lines of sight and fields of fire, alerting the user to areas of potential cover or danger. The tacnet can also suggest tactical maneuvers that will aid the user, such as flanking an opponent or acquiring better elevation.

Many of these features are immediately accessible to the user via their AR display; other data can be accessed with a Quick Action. Likewise, the gamemaster decides when the muse/AI provides important alerts to the user. At the gamemaster’s discretion, some of these features may apply modifiers to the character’s tests.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Yeah, I think that Eclipse Phase actually got it right... It is an elegant System for Tacnets.
Bearclaw
My table is still playing 4a, and although everyone always has tac-net, we ignore the mechanical bonuses. The ability for everyone to know everything about the battle field is a gigantic bonus, and no one feels the need to try to squeeze an extra +1 to initiative. Apparently, we do like Eclipse Phase does it.
Voran
That's a nice setup, I like the fluff, good logical bonuses without just tacking on +dice.
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