Hoi Kids,

Just a quick query, but what armour affects the stun damage of slings? Ballistic or Impact? I've honestly forgotten.

Regarding bows (And the usual Ranger-X horror) do we use the standard bow ranges? As I've gone though the old CC and can't figure out where the range table is for that, along with the slingshot and the mounted sling.

Page numbers would be great, thanks.

Nighty,

-Tir

Impact.
Range comes from STR.
I am at work right now, so no access to books for concrete numbers.
But i think i got a Troll to have 900-1000m Reach max . .

edit:
http://denver.wikidot.com/info:weapon-ranges
this sounds about correct.

edit 2:
i have never seen such a comprehensive online collection of the SR3 stuff O.o

Thanks again Stahlseele - I found them when looking though the Cannon Companion for an index (page 113). Str 12 Troll, extreme range is Str x 60 = 720m.

Now I'm going through looking for the Dikote rules again:) Ahh, Page 111, Man & Machine. Fell open to it after I dug it up, oddly enough....
Been so long since I munchkined like this:)

Damn....that's not a bad site at ALL. There are some placeholders, but the stuff that's there is nicely complete.

So...Dikoted Barbed Arrowheads, Str 12 Ranger Bow, hrmmm.
Damage 17M, halved barrier rating...

Yep, I think the guard in the Armoured-glass tower is going to be hit. Through the door. From half a klick away.

But for sheer fun, the slingshot is OP. Odd TN's on it though, is you're using Aptitude and Eye Magnification 3 (Tn's: 3, 4, 2, 5?) Is this right?


Caio!

-Tir

Ugh. I am so glad that things like that no longer exist in the rules. I mean, the current rules are far too generous. Bows are stupid. Jeezus, when will people get that: Bows are terrible weapons in comparison to anything bigger than a handgun.

Technology, people! Technology!

Also maybe because a throwing knife can take out a car, at a longer range than a pistol?

But it's a fun game, not, "I calculate windage for the drop, and make a shot"

-Tir

Nope, it's 3, 3, 3, 3. Eye mag 3 just cancel the distance in any case. I know you're munchkining, but isn't the companion strongly suggesting attitude should never affect combat?

I'm wondering if they ever displayed an image of this ranger X troll-sized bow in any art.

Aptitude not Attitude.
Aptitude is strongly suggested to not be allowed for ANY active skill. Not just combat.
And Attitude should always affect combat.

@Wotnaz
THAT is ENTIRELY subjective!
Trolls were hit way too hard with the Nerf Bat in the Switch from SR3 to 4.
And for people crying about REALIZARM! . . ok, so you want to play SR realistically . .
Good . . no cyber, no bio, no magic of any kind, so no awakened either for you.
You get to play an all 2 in all attributes and skills completely mundane who knows nothing.

Yeah, I mistyped. Attitude should always affect combat, but I'm not sure it should grant you a -1 TN in any case .

I didn't remember it should be banned for all active skills neither. I actually don't understand why they didn't actually ban it for all active skills.

Actually, if you put your mundane a 4 or 5 in one or 2 physical attribute and vague sword skill, you then have Jon Snow.

Nah... Aptitude for Active skills was not all that bad, really. Yes, we allowed it for Combat skills as well. I can only remember one character actually ever taking it. The Troll Combat Adept. He was pretty brutal, regardless of whether he was unarmed, using No-Daichi (Dikoted, of course), or Bow (He used Trees as Arrows). Didn't hurt that he was 11'4" and almost 1200 pounds. He was big for his size.

If you are going to ban it, why have it at all?

Cause it's pretty much okay for knowledge skills. But looking at it, it can really unbalance things with combat, driving, social skills, sorcery or conjuring and the like… Maybe I'd allow it for a B/R skill, sort of. But that's just my take on it, he.

We had a bow troll adept once. I found him quite fun actually, when he spread his truckload of dice to scatter some poor guy on the street ground. But really, I wish the game assumed that, and show us some art of trolls pulling off some scorpio like bows to pierce concrete walls.

Indeed... Spikes destroyed major Military vehicles with his Troll-Bow, and drones went down like popcorn. Of course, while he may have been tough, military grade weapons in return were not good. Sucked up a couple of missiles and rockets during that campaign - good thing there was plenty of cover to be had. Always hated getting caught in between multiple armies during a major offensive.

Do you have a final damage code for his bow? I'm curious. And actually seem to enjoy munchkinism.

Been a long while - I would have to see if I could find it. It was stupid high, though. Base 17S or 18S maybe, with Dikoted Arrows. Strength 14 if I remember correctly. STUPID powerful. And he was a Grade 5 Initiate Adept (Magic 11 if I remember correctly) with all that craziness piled on. He is buried somewhere in my computer hard drives.

Err, the Dikote does not work like that i think?
Dikote only gives the +1 Damage on handheld blades and only gives +1 Power on thrown weapons or arrows if i remember correctly.
You could get with some fineaggeling the power up to 20M, but not more i guess.

Someone could dig the forums for pre-SR4, but on top of my head, I think you can reach at least power 23 at chargen . But the highest power could have been reached with throwing weapon and missile mastery. Somehow I never managed to play a throwing Giant adept sending dikoted polearms into bad guys. A pity.

@stahlseele:

Giant: Str 6 + 5 + 1 (Bonus attribute point)

Adept: Bonus Str + 6

Ranger X bow: Str Min + 4

Dikote: +1 power

That's 23M

But with a dikoted polearm (Str+4)S and missile mastery (+2 power), You can reach 24S.

Yeah, i never really played much with either meta variants or magic, so i usually only speak using bio/cyber stuff.
A Dikote Pole-Arm has STR+4D. I remember that much.

The wording of Dikote in SR3 provided that +1 Damage Level to any "edged instrument like a sword" ... which quite often caused debate on whether or not this limited it to weapons that made use of the "edged weapons" melee skill. If that would have been taken as strictly correct, no implant spurs ("cyber-implant weapon" skill) or dikoted pole arm ("pole arm" skill) would have provided that bonus. Tougher times for your beloved melee trolls
Just by wording however that bonus was given whenever an "edge" was present on the weapon as part of its primary damage component.

Other weapons that qualified for Dikote bonuses received only a +1 power bonus (which edged weapons also got from being dikoted).

The maximum damage codes that could be achieved for Ranger X depends on what you're talking: A starter (one trick pony) character or a to the max developed character that spent karma and Nuyen on the goal of becoming the world's strongest character with fully maximized strength attribute.

The limits for a starting character would revolve around the following aspects (and getting them into a "playable" character):

1. Troll - meta variant Cyclops for + 6 racial modifier. Max starting value 12 by now. Absolute (normal) attribute maximum 18 in the long run.
2. A smart link implant and accessory to the bow in order to compensate for the -2 ranged attack mod Cyclops do get. In the long run, implant an independent cyber eye to circumvent this basic drawback
3. Edges of Exceptional Attribute STR + Additional Attribute Point STR (only legal way of getting a natural starting attribute of 7 prior to racial modifiers and without implants for characters that weren't Otaku). Max Starting value raised to 13 and absolute maximum raised to 20 (one of the rare cases where things get rounded up instead of down).
4. Phenotypic Alteration Gene modification (SotA'63) to further increase both racial modified (normal) attribute maximum and subsequently also racial modified absolute attribute maximums. Starting value remains at 13 with a racial modified attribute max of 14 and absolute maximum was just raised to 21.
5. Adept with a Rating 6 Attribute Boost (STR) at 1.5 power points which would ultimately allow temporarily boosting STR up to twice of the characters racial modified (normal) attribute maximum => currently 14 ... *2 = 28. No comment on how likely it is to get the boost working for now ... even at the so far established values for the starting version.
6. Adept of the Magician's Way if you totally want to "fuck" with the rules for spell casting of "Increase Attribute" and later on "Increase Cybered Attribute" spells with technically no upper limits but just as with Attribute boost power severely low chances of successfully casting those spells with a meaningful number of successes.
7. Maximized Muscle Augmentation bioware or Muscle Replacement cyberware within the constraints of available Nuyen for buying all required implants and gear. For extreme one trick pony builds Rating 4 Should still be doable despite costs for high starting resources and being an Adept . This Bioware must be replaced with the cyber version the long run, because unlike bioware bonuses cyberware can explicitly exceed absolute natural attribute maximums permanently. Starting value for STR is now either 17 or 13[17] with the absolute max still sitting at 21. The cyber version has the additional benefit of making Magic Tests for Attribute Boost easier due to the TN for that being derived from non-augmented attribute values
8. Suprathyroid Gland Bioware for another +1 on STR within natural and absolute natural attribute maximums. Starting STR now either 18 or 14[18]

If our Cyclops happens to successfully activate his Attribute Boost with a fully geased Magic Attribute of 6 against TNs of either 7 or 9 he could temporarily increase STR to 24 or 20[24]. I would however advise against using that value for MinSTR of the Ranger X further longer strike distances.

Note Ranger X provides a +4 to power bonus! Not an actual strength increase. By now we'd be seeing an unboosted 22M ranged and 28M boosted attack based on a maximum firing distance of 18*60=1080 meters - provided the Ranger X is bought with a MinSTR value of 18.

If you really want to go nuts here you have him use Kamikaze and Nitro for a combined STR bonus of 4 more points which actually causes this character to potentially scratch his absolute attribute max: If you went with Muscle Aug Bioware you'd now be restricted to 21 "unaugmented" STR plus 6 Attribute Boost for STR 27 and a combined 31M Damage Code. With Muscle Replacement you'd be at 18[22] + 6 Attribute Boost for STR 28 with a total of 32M Damage with Ranger X. Just don't expect to see the character live too long without drug induced damage and subsequent Magic and Essence losses.

With Dikote you'd see values ranging between of 23, 28, 32 and 33M for that one trick pony starting character and your average "rules lawyer" munchkin will of course make a "reasonable" argument that the arrow head of a Ranger X arrow does indeed qualify for being an "edged instrument" which would up the whole thing to S Damage level.

The interesting part about this little "demonstration" however lies with something else: This character would only be able to reliable fire one shot per Combat Turn and usually is left with only one Pass per turn ... With the standard Combat Turn duration of 3 seconds that guy will fire his arrows at supersonic speeds (for the whole travel time to the target) and - by RAW - fire through massive walls and still killing a person behind that wall.

I think the whole edged weapon stuff is only in the german version.
If i remember correctly, in the english version it says bladed.
Which takes it far away from the whole edged weapons skill.

I deliberately used the relevant English wording in my previous text but here's the full quote:

When Dikote is used to coat a melee, throwing or projectile weapon, add 1 to he Power of any attack made with the treated weapon. If applied to an edged instrument such as a sword, the weapon's Damage Level is also increased by one.

So no, the "edged weapon" stuff and the subsequent debate whether or not it applies to weapons associated the the "edged weapons" skill is not a result of German translations.

"M" makes sense... Could not remember, and I no longer have Book. Rarely did I not stage to Deadly, though.

@Cocheese
OK, i admit defeat.

@Tymeaus
Oh, yes, staging. Such silly fun to be had with a propperly optimized character ^^