I have some questions about attacking Foci. Or I guess really I am using this series of questions to nail down my understanding of how perception and area effect spells work on both the physical and astral planes, but most of them focus around attacking foci.

The 4th edition FAQ has the following.
An active focus is dual-natured and can be attacked using Astral Combat much like a ward or targeted by spells like Disrupt [Focus] (p.16, Digital Grimoire) or other Mana-based spells that deal Physical damage. From the Disrupt [Focus] spell description: On the astral plane, an active focus has Barrier and Structure ratings equal to its Force. If its Structure rating is reduced to 0, the focus is disrupted and becomes inactive ...

For all of my examples, lets assume the target is a mage. He has several active foci. A rating 4 power foci worn around his neck where anybody could see it, but while it is powerful, it is not large nor obvious on the physical plane. A rating 2 weapon focus is a large axe, held unsheathed in his hands. Two small sustaining foci, one rating 2, the other rating 8 are worn under his clothing (touching his skin) where they can not be seen by mundane sight. Let us also say he has a quickened spell Force 4 cast upon him.

(1) OK, so for my first example, lets say I am on the astral plane, and see the aura of the mage reflecting from the physical plane. Since he is not astrally projecting, I am seeing his aura, not his astral form. While he is not duel-natured, his 4 foci are. While his aura is bright and colorful, am I correct in stating that the 4 foci are brighter, and more colorful? That all 4 are plainly visible? Their "real" solidness shining through the grey lifelessness of the concealing clothes? I can also see that he has three spells affecting him? All this would be obvious at a glance? More details about the foci or spells would require assensing tests? For example I could easily see that there were 3 spells and 4 foci, but other than clues (one is an axe) I could not tell what foci was doing what, nor that one of the spells was quickened without assensing? If I spent enough time assensing I could probably figure out what foci was doing what and that one of the spells was quickened?
(2) As I understand it, I can't counterspell any of the three spells, because I am on the wrong plane. About the only thing I can do is hit one of the foci using astral combat, or I can cast a mana spell. Correct?
(3) Now lets say I cast a Mana Ball at the mages figure. Obviously I can't hurt the mage himself, since he is on a different plane than me, but I wish to disrupt his foci. Lets say I do 6 base points of damage. Correct me if I am wrong, but he can't counterspell my attack, since he is on the wrong plane (and probably surprised). Nothing resists the damage other than the "armor" of the foci. The two rating 2 foci both take 4 points of damage and are disrupted. The rating 4 foci took 2 points of damage, leaving it with 2. The rating 8 foci had no damage make it though it's barrier rating. The mage and the sustained spell were unaffected. Correct?
(4) Now lets start over, and say that (3) has not happened yet. Lets say the mage astraly projects and furthermore moves several meters away from his body so that I can't hit both his body and his form in one area of effect. When looking at his astral form, I know that he still has a copy (at least) of his weapon focus axe. Am I still seeing the other foci? Am I still seeing the spells? I would think so. Can I see them both on both his body and his form? I would think so. Can I counterspell the spells? I would think not, since they were originally cast on the other plane.
(5) Lets say I cast a mana ball at his form. He can and does counterspell and rolls willpower to resist damage from the spell which still effects him somewhat. Will the Manaball effect the Foci I see about his astral form? I would think not.
(6) Now lets say I cast a mana ball upon his empty shell of a body. Again I can't effect the body, nor the quickend spell, and the astral form is outside the area of effect, but can I still effect the duel natured foci that are with the body? This time he can counterspell my mana ball, but lets assume I again do 6 points of damage. The rating 2 foci are disrupted, and one of the spells and the axe disappears from the astral form, correct?
(7) OK, so lets go back to condition (1) again and say that after I assensed the situation fairly well, I go back to my meat body (conveniently left down the hall), and sneak up to where I can see the mage in the real world. I can now attempt to dispel any of the spells I saw upon him earlier? I don't have to be astraly perceiving to do that, I can target the dispelling of the specific spell I wanted from memory?
(8) So now I decide to cast a mana ball from the physical plane. It is going to effect the mage. Will a mana ball cast on the physical plane disrupt the foci like one cast from astral will? (obviously they get counterspelling - even if the mage did not specifically mention that he was counterspelling his own foci, they are on him, so they get the benefit of the counterspelling). I have heard that if you cast a spell at a guy in full armor, even though you can't see the person themselves, you know exactly where in the armor he is, so you can target him. Assuming I know exactly where (under his clothes where I can't directly see them) his foci are, I can still target all of them?
(9) How about if I had never seen the mage before? What if I did not even know he was a mage, I just see a guy and cast a mana ball. Does the mana ball still disrupt foci I can see, even if I don't know to specifically "target" and "tune" the ball to effect the axe and amulet? How about the ones under his clothes?
(10) And if I am on the physical plane, but astraly perceiving, I can see all 4 of the foci, so the mage and all 4 foci are effected by the mana ball cast in the physical plane, correct? My understanding is that when astraly perceiving, I can see the astral plane, and have my choice to target my spells either the astral or physical plane. This is a good way to target people and things you are having trouble seeing in the physical plane, correct?

Thanks, I think I am getting a handle on all of this, but would like a check to see if I have ahold of the wrong end of some stick or another.

First of all, welcome to Dumpshock. Due to quote limits, this answer will be in two postings.


Yes, indeed. Auras of any kind are obvious and do not need a perception/assension test to notice. If the caster is, however, using stealth, a test would be necessary.


I don't know about time, but you can retry if your assensing test does not yield enough hits. With the usual -2 modifier.
The axe is, of course, a hint, but it could just as easily be any other kind of focus, or even a combined focus. Without assensing, there's no way to be sure (apart from nuking it from orbit, of course).


You can totally counterspell, since the spells and you (assensing or astrally projecting) are both astrally active. Attacking in astral combat or casting a mana spell at it, is also possible.


It get's a bit wonky here. Since you're not attacking him personally, he shouldn't get the counterspelling dice to his spell resistance test. He also cannot actively counter your spell. Personally, I find it a bit stupid to require a mage declaring spell defense for his foci, so I'd rule them part of his aura (having paid for them in Karma), and as such, they'd profit from the mages innate access to spell defense dice in form of his counterspelling skill.


Not entirely. You still have to roll the "barrier rating" of the foci to resist the damage, and should you use my interpretation, they'll also receive spell defense dice. The mage and his spells are okay, though.


You can see the foci, but not on both his body and his aura/projected form. You'll see their physical representation , but their aura will follow the mage's projection.. You can still dispell the spells, because of the answer to (2).


Since you're attacking with an Area of Effect spell, they'll be affected.

No, because the part you can attack is with the mage's projected form.


Only if they're physical spells, like Barrier or Armor. If you want to dispell Mana spells, you'll have to go astral.


Yes. See p.183 SR4A (Area Spells). The part about spell targeting above is also pertinent to a lot of your questions. Your thoughts about the obvious spell defense aren't as obvious as you'd think, but it's how I'd run it.


I don't see the significance of the part with the armor, but your questions are answered on p. 183 SR4A (Area Spells). You also don't need to know where the foci are. Edit: You can only target those foci that are visible to you.


Again: All of them. Area spells aren't dependant on your intention, and they don't discriminate what they nuke. Edit: However, since mana ball is a direct combat spell, only things in your LOS are affected.


This is a very important question. You cannot decide on which plane you cast your spell. When you astrally or normally perceive, your spells are always on the physical plane, when you project, your spells are always on the astral plane. You cannot bridge the divide.
Edit: A special situation arises when you are assensing. In this case you can, as you wrote, use it to target something when having trouble seeing it on the physical plane. However, you need to decide. In the case of the foci it's irrelevant, since those are dual natured and are hit regardless of the mana ball being cast on the physical or astral plane, but should you sling it at their auras, the mage will not be hit alongside (as long as he isn't astrally active as well).

If you astrally perceive (becoming dualnatured) you can decide if you cast spells on astral or mundane targets



Indirekt combat spells yes, direct combat spells can only affect targets you see.

SYL

Completely correct. Don't know why I wrote that.



I knew that had to be wrong, but I couldn't find the passage. Thanks for pointing it out.
So, the foci can only be affected by a mana ball if they're visible to you.

First off, thank you both very much for your help. This does seem like a "wonky" and complex topic, which is why I am trying to wrap my mind around what is really going on with the rules. But there are a few things that I am still not sure about.

SR4A page 185 (Dispelling sustained spells) says
I did not think that a spell cast on the physical plane was active on the astral plane. It has an Aura on the astral plane, but no duel-natured presence that I am aware of. For example, only astral barriers cast on the physical plane will disrupt a spell that goes through it. An astral barrier on the astral plane will not.
Even if a spell is active on the astral plane, I would presume they were all originally cast on the physical plane (many buff spells like increase reflexes and increase attribute are physical spells that don't have any effect on the astral plane). Plus you need to be on the physical plane to use a sustaining focus. I interpreted the phrase "the character must be on the same plane" as meaning the same plane the spell was originally cast upon, not merely one of the planes the spell is active upon. So with your interpretation, what exactly is that phrase really limiting?

(3) Yes I totally messed up attacking a barrier. Instead of a Force 2 focus having 2 "damage" subtracted from my attack, it instead rolls 4 dice to resist my attack. But to me the point of this scenario is to clarify that since I am in astral space, and he is not, I can't affect him, but he can't use counterspelling to protect his foci - which I think is the case.

Thanks! That is one of the things that had me most confused! OK, so the duel-natured aspect of all Foci follow the astraly perceiving form, and none of it stays with the body. That makes sense. And it pretty much reverses my understanding of scenarios (5) and (6).

I forgot that I can only dispel spells that I can "perceive". So that would only be spells that I was currently astraly perceiving or spells that have a visible or otherwise perceivable effect in the physical world. So my bad on that one.

I now see what you are thinking the "must be on the same plane" phrase I quoted above in answer (2) is limiting. Correct me if I am wrong, you are saying that Physical spells can only be dispelled from the physical plane? And Mana spells can only be dispelled from the Astral plane? I don't see that anywhere in the books, can somebody give me a reference to that?

SR4 203 under Spell Type says
My understanding of this whole topic is that only Mana spells have effect on the astral plane. A (Mana) spell cast from and upon the astral plane has effect and is visible only from the astral plane. It can only be counterspelled from the astral plane. Ether a Physical or Mana spell cast on the physical plane has effect only on the physical plane. They both will have an Aura visible on the astral plane but the spell themselves will not have an astral component (a sustaining focus does, but the spell does not). Neither a Physical nor Mana spell cast upon the physical plane can be dispelled from the astral plane. Ether can only be dispelled from the physical plane, Correct?

(8) through (10) I was hurrying nearing the end of my OP, and did not make at all clear what I was asking.
SR4A page 183 Choose the targets: Area Spells says ...
All of these questions are about what is "Visible", what can be Targeted, and what is Effected.
My understanding is that if you cast a manaball, and one of the targets within the area of effect happens to be out of your LOS behind a pillar, that target is not effected, even though people on all sides of him are.
In a previous version of a rulebook that I read many years ago, I seem to recall a paragraph or two giving an example that people in a vehicle cannot be targeted by an area effect spell unless you could see them. Just knowing that they were in the vehicle was not enough, you had to be able to see them. However the same example said that a person wearing full armor with visor could always be targeted. A few centimeters of armor were insufficient to block line of sight to prevent the person being targeted and effected. However being several dozen centimeters behind a mirrored vehicle windscreen always was enough to prevent effect.

I apologize for not making it clearer, but that scenario was what I was driving at, You have several legitimate targets for a manaball behind some layers of armor or clothing. The concealing armor does not protect the man from being targeted. Does it protect the foci from being targeted? And in (9) does the fact that the caster does not know that these physical items are legitimate targets for a manaball protect them? My guess would be that if clothing or armor does not protect a man, it should not protect a focus. I also guess that all legitimate targets are effected, even if the caster does not realize they are legitimate targets. But I would be very interested in hearing other theories.

Thank you very much for your help!

These are good questions. I'll admit that I answered from memory, where it tells me that spells are in fact dual natured and have an astral presence, if they're sustained, independent of where they were actually cast or if theyre P or M spells. I don't remember the exact passage though, but consider this:
A character with sustained spells passing through a mana barrier, like e.g. a ward, will always have to check if these spells are disrupted. Logically it seems to me that they'll have to have a presence on the astral plane to be affected this way. Maybe I've always played it wrong, though


Counterspelling is divided into active counterspelling (i.e. against sustained spells) and the passive one that any mage with a rating in the Counterspelling skill has.
Important to my mind is the distinction of whether you'll treat the foci as part of the mage's aura or not. If yes, they profit from his counterspelling skill, because it has nothing to do with him being aware of getting a spell slung at him.
A mage will always defend with the pertinent attribute + the rating of their counterspelling skill.
If you treat the foci seperately, they will not get any bonus dice from that skill. However, a mage can also defend his team mates by simply spending a free action and declaring this, even without being aware that they're targeted by spells. I personally don't think that it is rewarding to have players declare counterspelling also for their foci, so I roll it into one.
Note that - in this case - in the scenario of three foci getting hit by the mana ball, the counterspelling dice are only rolled once and the hits added to the individual rolls of the barrier rating, as described on p. 185 SR4A.


No, sorry if it came across that way. I'm saying (see above) that you can dispell any spell from any plane where you can see it (like when you see a mage sustaining a physical barrier and trying to remove that) but you can also dispell any sustained spell from the astral plane, since they have a presence there. Again, I might be wrong there.


Entirely correct so far.


Here's where I disagree, reasons stated above.


That is correct.
The mana ball, as a direct spell, is dependant on seeing your target, as apple pointed out.
A fire ball, an indirect spell, can be cast somewhere behind that pillar at a point you can see, and will hit everything and everyone in his area of effect, independent of whether you can see it or not.


Yes, that is still true. Armor doesn't "cover your aura" (because it extends a bit from your body) and as such, armor does not prevent you from being targeted with a spell, even if it is fully covering military power armor. A car is a different matter. You and your aura are in an enclosed space and can't be seen, and because of this, can't be targeted directly.


Yes and no. If you cast your mana ball on the astral plane (assensing or projecting), their aura can be seen and you can target them. Not the carrying mage though, unless he's also astrally active at the moment.
If you cast your spell on the physical plane, only the targets you can see are affeted, e.g. the axe from your original example, or a ring on the hand holding it. The foci under the clothing aren't affected. Note, that cover penalties apply.


Intent isn't required for the foci to be affected. If you see them and they're caught in the area of effect, they're affected.

That is the example that I had just used to argue the exact opposite! The tricky part is that a ward is duel natured. It is a mana barrier on the physical plane, plus it is a mana barrier on the astral plane, but those two halves have very different effects.
SR4A page 194 - Mana Barriers says:

So I would think that if a sustained spell was carried through a mana barrier on only the physical plane, it would have to make it's test against disruption, but not if it was carried past a mana barrier only on the astral plane. It is quite possible that a foci might need to make the test if it was carried through a mana barrier on ether plane. Only astral spells are effected by astral mana barriers.
Page 191 says that things active on the astral plane have an astral form and that things not active on the astral plane have an Aura. In the following section it says that spells have an Aura. So I don't think that a spell is ever active on more than one plane at a time.

On the other hand however, page 194 "Passing through barriers" Muddy's the water a lot. It uses the terms Astral Mana Barrier and Mana Barrier almost interchangeably, but the whole section seems to be talking only about barriers on the astral plane. Plus it specifically includes sustained spells in a list of things that have astral forms. So it looks pretty confusing. One section of the rules seems to say one thing, another section seems to say something else.

The problem with that is that only spell-based mana barriers that are created on the Astral Plane or the Physical Plane are actually single plane phenomena. Astral Barriers like wards are - despite the "astral" in naming - in fact dual-natured phenomena ever since SR3 (and possibly even before, can't quite remember exactly) => A spell cast and sustained on the Physical Plane interacts with the physical aspect of such a barrier while a spell cast and sustained on the Astral Plane interacts with the astral aspect whenever such "pass-through" checks are being made.

The real problematic scenario however is this:

Let's have a magician with active astral perception cast a mana-based barrier spell that can be sustained onto the Astral Plane and than switch off his astral perceptions. Spellcasting requirements like "same plane" and "LOS/Touch" are only required for casting the spell itself. So the first fundamental question there is: Can that magician actually sustain the mana-based barrier on the Astral? He certainly can't move it, since that usually requires "LOS" again under the various rulesets but there's no clear answer on the "just sustain" aspect there.
let's assume for a second that he can indeed sustain that barrier spell and expand the scenario by having a second magician cast a mana-based barrier spell on the physical plane and wonder what happens when our first magician tries to walk through this spell-based barrier (which won't interact with his physical body by virtue of not being a physical barrier spell): Neither spell will come into contact with each other due to them existing on two different planes. So will his movement through the barrier which resides on the Physical Plane force the check for successful continuation of sustaining his own barrier spell?

Hm. It's entirely possible that I misinterpreted all this and it just never came up (or I never got called on my BS )

If I did, the given examples regarding the dispelling of sustained spells should be correct, then.

I suspect that the distinction rarely comes up, because mostly Runners are running into duel-natured wards.
The most likely situation where I see it make a difference, is if somebody is being chased, and they decide to cast a mana barrier behind them. The way I am leaning is that if they astraly perceived and cast it on the astral plane, then a pursuing mage might have his foci disrupted if he runs through the astral mana barrier. But if he just cast it on the physical plane, it might disrupt the foci, plus any spell at all (quickened or being sustained directly by the mage).

Opps, well no, I guess it makes a much bigger difference than that. Because if a spell cast on the physical plane does not have any astral form, then it can't be dispelled from the astral plane, and that is a huge difference.