Hi Folks,

haven´t been here for a while (except for sneaking by in a hurry) so I hope everybody is fine and that I haven´t missed something important. I know it is impolite to start right away with “business”, but I am at work and the following question is already burning under my feet since our last session on the weekend. ^^

Our group just “lost” our second game master and we fused the two existing teams. This means we have some sort of “clone-problem”, because the chars we play in the different teams, are - lets say - quite “similar” to each other. Ok, the damage dealer in team A is a troll, while team B has an surged Elf, but the skill-set and the “class” are the same. So I wanted to give them at least different key aspects // foci // priorities.

While I go “full combat monster adept” with the troll (focus on longarms, close combat with blades and spirit killing, every point of magic / initiation is going into adept powers), I am not sure where I should invest my karma for the surged Elf. The troll is “Viking themed”, and the build feels “round”. So here I don´t need any changes.

The elf is a mystic adept with a magic-splitting of 3/3 and his “theme” is “Medusa” (I posted about this in the past). He uses spellcasting / summoning only passively (to enhance his abilities, means “increase attribute”, “increase reflexes”, “combat sense”, “detect enemies”, “levitation”, “concealment power”, “movement power” etc.). This specific split was basically to get the most bang for your buck, means to “save” power points for adept powers, that would have otherwise be too expensive (e.g. increase reflexes) and only get adept powers that cannot easily be replaced by spellcasting (critical strike).

his current adept powers are:

Critical strike (3)
Killing hands
Enhances senses (smell)
Counterstrike (1)
Increased concentration
Attribute Boost (Agility) (1)

At the moment I have 41 karma free for use. I am not initiated yet, my attributes are near natural max., my most important skills are around rating 4 or 5 (plus specializations) and yes, so far I am satisfied. But what should I do now? Where shall I invest the karma?

- Initiation?
- If so, in which field? Magic or Adept?
- What metamagic?
- Binding of foci?
- Increase of magic attribute or power focus?
- Going on saving karma and summoning of a high-power familiar (force 6, costs are about 70-80 karma)

I hope you have some good proposals for me.

PS: if I go familiar, I can choose between all abilities of spirits I can summon. Does this include the “skill” abilities of guardian and task spirits, too? If so, does it mean I can choose different skills whenever I call him? Makes no sense to me, rule-wise.

.. removing negative qualities?..taking positive qualities?
..initation, then Filtering metamagic..

The Ally Spirit creation rules are found in Street Magic, starting on page 103. For skills (step 4), they start with the five basic ones that all spirits have and you can add skills that you personally know, so you could add your Blades or Automatics skill to the spirit. If you had Guardian or Task spirits, then during Step 3: Choose Powers you could add a skill that way, but when you formulate your Ally Spirit it is essentially a bound spirit - you can't redo bound spirits' powers or abilities after you bind them, so you cant do that with Allies either.

Allies have an upgrade option. See "Enhancing An Ally" on page 105 of Street Magic, right side.

Allies always seemed a very expensive option for magicians, especially as they have so many other places to spend karma. Do you have some sustaining foci for all those buffing spells? Combat sense isn't quite as useful when you need to sacrifice the first 2 hits for sustaining penalties (or 1 with psyche). That's where I'd put at least some of that karma, detection and health sustaining foci.

If you can swing a decent-Force Ally spirit you don't need sustaining foci for everything, as you can just use the Ally spirit instead.

EDIT: On that note, if you don't start with foci then you basically will never need them. There are so many other things that you need your karma for that sinking them into something you could have had at chargen is terrible. The only exceptions are Power or Weapon foci.

How do you figure? Or is this a build point exploit thing? Cuz that sort of thing is why we switched to using karma build. Got tired of looking for all the exploits.

How do you figure which?

Since an Ally Spirit has unlimited Services, you can use it to provide your sustaining for you with no loss of function whatsoever (and it can cast spells, act as a power focus, etc as well).

As for the Starting with Foci, I agree. If you build the character to not require Foci at the beginning (there is at least one Positive Quality that is useful for such), then there ARE better things to use your karma for in the long term. Like an Ally Spirit or the ability to Quicken, or any number of other things. Of course, Power Foci are always useful, but it is generally better to use that karma on an Ally Spirit in play than a Power Foci in Play, at least in my opinion.

Karma wise, a summoning or spellcasting focus is limited to one category of spirit or spell. At equal Force, two such foci have the same karmic costs as a single power focus, which boosts EVERYTHING tied to your Magic attribute.

Don't forget about the weapon focus

Weapon Foci are nice, but I have never actually used one for a Magician or Mystic Adept. They are strictly an Adept thing for me.

How do you figure you don't need foci if you never got them at the beginning? I know you can use an ally to sustain spells though that is a pretty expensive way to go about it. I also know that next to power foci, the other spellcasting and summoning foci types aren't really that useful. But how is a sustaining foci not worth the karma? Rating 4 Health sustaining foci is 8 karma and lets you sustain the most powerful version of Increase Reflexes. So long as your other physical attributes aren't too high you can use it there as well, when not increasing reflexes. Pretty good investment for 8 karma.

Yup, until you get that damn mage in astral form nailing your focus with mana bolts.

Not actually possible in 4th ed. Certainly was an issue in previous editions though.

You want that Focus at Rating 6 just to avoid Background Count Entanglements.
Yes, Sustaining Foci are nice (never said they weren't), but if you ignore them at Chargen, there is likely a reason you did so, and after play starts, there are generally better things to spend your Karma on.

Maybe not with a Mana Bolt, but there are ways to do it, even in 4th Edition.

I usually ignore foci at character generation in general because of the investment costs. SR5 has a nice option when it comes to foci and upgrading them, but that's provided you did the enchanting and all that yourself. Not impossible to retrofit that into SR4, fortunately, but technically this is a house rule. But by doing so it does give more enticement to starting with a weaker focus at the start and not losing out on the karmic investment later when you want something more powerful; you only pay the difference to rebond a focus that you've just improved.

This is in the Street Grimmoire book? I'll have to look into that. I've been so disappointed by the other SR5 material that I haven't even opened that one yet. May just port that rule to my 4th ed game.

Street Grimoire, page 230, bottom bubble titled "Upgrading An Existing Focus"

Page numbers too? You're spoiling me. Thanks.

I'm not sure how I feel with you being able to make my arguments for me. I think I like it, but we were at odds (amicably) so often its... strange how frequently we agree now.

I've seen a lot of people suggest using an Ally Spirit in place of a Sustaining Focus, but don't they get the same dice pool penalty for sustaining a spell that the caster would've had if he were sustaining the spell himself? Or do they not care if the spirit can actually *do* anything and just pile dice penalties for sustaining spells on the Ally Spirit because it can't have a pool lower than zero?

Actually, either option sounds kind of OP to me... lol

Ally spirits (as normal spirits) do get the sustaining penalty. But then again its a choice: you still get full passive bonuses (concealment, guard, spellcasting) and the ally can sustain 1-x spell (as a houserule: they can sustain sustain (force) spells). Or you reduce the amount of sustained spells with a sustaining focus combination and have a secondary combatant (and astral lookout). That plan only crashes if you get into an background count area.

SYL

How does BGC affect sustained spells? I thought it only affected rolls, like when you cast, summon, resist drain, etc..?

Street Grimoire pg 32

Thought I'd give a direct location as it's one of those little things that seems to be tucked away in the dark corner of a closet, like your obscure crazy relative that you don't want anyone to know about.

Semper Fi Neraph.
No worries, though. I am sure we are still at odds (amicably so) on many things.